I have some questions about Insect Spirits in SR4

Lets say you end up with just controlling the host, does that mean the bug has no access to any of their powers?
How about the hybred? Do they get the stat bonus?
I assume the full is just like the normal spirit rules and all the original host stats go away, is that correct?

Thanks!

Hm? isn't that pretty clear in the sidebox in the "Street Magic", page 100?

HA... just looked at it again: and yeah you are right: Looks suspicious.

Well: nowhere is mentioned that ANY merger would lose ANYTHING of the spirit except the Evanescence. It can only gain powers, or a cool body... or both (hybrid)

But, just reading this again gets me to another point: I was preparing an run from an old module (SR3) and just realized: with the SR4 rules for inhabitation and the neccessary preparations and such a Hive threat is not as much as a threat as an annoyance. A Shaman can prepare like... maybe 2-3 people a day. A begun inhabitation needs DAYS.

In my old adventure the hive was rapidly expanding, it should have reached apocalyptic level in three days (and ends with a big KABOOOM, when the runner can't stop it). But even IF the queen arrives on the second day. She and the shaman combinmed can only maybe add 6 spirits a day, and only begin to profit from that after 3 days or such. I really need to skew that a bit into a faster lane (hope my players don't know how long it would take per rules... they are very much in love with WRITTEN rules and don't like me to houserule and wing it so much grrrr)

No insect spirits are major evil beasts. The details of their abilities are listed in Street magic. Basically flesh form spirits takes over another person they get that person's abilities and their abilities as well.

On the other hand, insect spirits are individually a lot more powerful in SR4.
Much higher attributes, much more powers, attacking them with willpower is much less viable etc.
The old flesh forms (what's now called Hybrid Forms) actually had lower attributes than the host and gained crap like one Enhanced Sense and an Allergy (Insecticides) for it in most cases.

Bugs in SR4 may not be designed for mass outbreaks anymore, but they pose a much greater threat when they slowly infiltrate an organization and have time to set up a hive.
In SR2, most bugs where crappy mooks, you could run stuff such as Queen Euphoria with starting characters and everybody could get out alive.
That would be drastically different with a hive operating under SR4 rules.

Also, keep in mind that even Chicago only had several thousand bugs attacking, and that was set up over years by multiple shamans.
There may have been a threat of a bug apocalypse happening in a matter of days, but as far as things go that actually happened, the worst case scenario still was a far cry from that.

And the worst of it is, that wasn't even *all* of the bugs. There's still that bunch in torpor underneath Cermak...

Can I admit to laughing when in Sixth World Atlast Slamm-0 goes "buzz buzz"? Laughed out loud, even.

Also keep in mind that even in 1st Ed, merges took days to form. And most of the hive projects like UB, CrashCart, etc. were plans hatched over YEARS with multiple shamen and queens involved. Six spirits a day (as you said) is over two thousand merges a year. And that's just one shaman and one queen.

Ah yeah. Well i was a bit overstating the situation as "Apocalyptical" too, of course.

The timeline i have in mind (and is about what happens in that adventure -which is also cooked up by some random dude) was about:

Shaman got a few spirits ready/merged and waiting, but can't do much more and is losing control. HE NEEDS the queen.
The wasps go on a murdering spree and abduct new victims.
After that part of the city will be quarantined, Ares gets the contract to "do what is neccessary".
In that time the runner will have provided the host for the queen or the shaman was forced to get some "random host".
Depending on the outcome of the skimishes between Ares troops (Even a Firewatch team) and the insect, as well as the actions of the runners (can/will they just leave the zone, have they unwittingly helped the hive, did they got "drafted" by somebody to help out? Are they lying low, waiting for that shit to blow over? The outcome will be either: On the third/fourth day: Hive is found and gets a thorshot, stragglers get mostly eliminated, situation under control OR tactical nuke if the bugs converted to many people and can't safely be contained in that small an area OR all-out WAR to save the infrastructure. So just thousands of troops with small arms against dozens of spirits.

That's what i planned though. Should be the first run with a bit of "epic" feeling. Hm... maybe i just give the main shaman a few apprentices. And have higher number of low-level spirits initially.

Thats the problem, I read street magic and the bug templates are just spirit templates there is nothing specifically written about hybred and host forms, you have to assume alot of things (like replace force with original human/metahuman stat) I was wondering if there were actual rules I had just missed.

Did you read the big black sidebar on page 100 that lays out the gist of the rules for true, hybrid, and flesh form inhabitation merges?

There's nothing directly stating it, but I believe that an interpretation could be:

1) Possession and Inhabitation are the same, only difference being duration (Possession is temporary, Inhabitation is permanent)
* source: SM, "Spirits and Vessels" page 95
2) Since inhabitation doesn't tell you directly, you would default to what possession says, which is: "If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes. While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used..."
* source: SM, sidebar, "Possession and Vessels" page 102

So other than using the specific Inhabitation rules (SM, sidebar, page 100 - like Flesh Form gaining the Realistic Form and Aura Masking powers etc), you could fall back on Possession rules for questions of what the merged being's Force is etc...

Yes



My only problem with this interpretation is then the hybred form is better than the true form. Maybe thats the way its supposed to be but I always thought the true form was the most powerful

I don't know about the true form supposedly being the most powerful...

All the forms have up-and-down sides. Flesh form gets Realistic Form and Aura Masking for hiding in plain sight, Hybrid Form stands out more but has access to DNI and cyberware, True Form has Astral Form and Materialization. True Form just gets back to the old "which is better, Materialization or Possession?"

It's unclear to me whether the authors meant for Flesh Form to also have access to DNI and cyberware. Does the one line "any of the vessel’s natural and augmented abilities" mean this?

Yeah, i would say:

Hybrid Form is awesome to just pump out soldiers. Great stats, no-nonsense. Just added power and they can operate machines and such.
True Form: For spies and quick-materializingambush squads. But the weakest.
Flesh Form: Either for taking over EXTREMELY talented and/or boosted individuals (for keeping cyberware, skills and such) OR infiltration by using the masking and the face of the enemy. Or both.

Overall a Hybrid kicks the most ass, i think, but Fleshform is the most useful... and you only need a few true forms for strike teams and recon.

Apprentices would help a lot, even if they only have very basic skills. All it takes is a point of Magic and the Binding skill, after all.
They could easily be pushed to levels where they're more useful for this task if they get a Binding Focus, or maybe the leading shaman has learned Geomancy and the hive supports them with BGC as well.

Feral Cities also claims that there's insect adepts- maybe one of the other shamans is a mystic adept who just has one or two points of Magic set aside for increasing the nest and mostly works as an additional combat monster.

Another option would be to have an additional queen (or mother, this option seems more likely with the less organized bugs)- maybe from a hive that was nearly exterminated.
Bug City mentioned fly hives with multiple mothers.

I cant read this without my mind drifting to Werewolf... interesting, not the spin I was thinking of but I can still go with it.

Generally just use normal person stats and abilities unless you want to make them really nasty then use primerunner stats ontop of insect stats. But theres nothing premade that I've found. Most fleshforms will likely be the unwilling kidnapped, or brainwashed peons who fell for the cult hype. Either way not very powerful to begin with.

After Chicago, the average fleshform is usually a carefully chosen member of a powerful organization the bugs want to infiltrate.
Current fluff states they have gone from their brute-force approach of inhabiting as many homeless people as possible towards much more careful strategies.

Now, how powerful a kidnapped host could be obviously depends on the shaman's abilities. If he's new to the bug business and uses Force 3 spirits at best, mostly workers and caretakers to set up basic hive infrastructure, he won't go after chromed-up street sams as hosts for his new cadre of soldier spirits.
If he already has set up a larger hive that incorporates a competent kidnapping squad with high-force nymphs, scouts and soldiers, with flesh form spirits in powerful positions across the city to utilize all kinds of mundane assistance, that will look entirely different.

Going up against a mage who has no actual restrictions on the number of spirits he can control can be nasty. It's all just a matter of preparation time.