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Tyro
I've never been especially comfortable with the IP system. Does anyone have a good, simple alternative?
Tanegar
What about IPs rubs you the wrong way?
Tyro
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Apr 9 2011, 06:56 PM) *
What about IPs rubs you the wrong way?

Two things mainly: it doesn't mesh well with firearms (unless you treat a full-auto burst as "aim and shoot multiple short bursts"), and the "all or nothing" feel. Someone with 2 IPs is TWICE as fast as someone with just 1. I'm just looking into potential alternatives.
Abstruse
It's one of the things I like best about the Shadowrun system. It used to be worse. Back in 2nd Ed, everyone rolled Initiative dice, added it to Reflex, and that number was their Initiative Number. You start at the highest number (which was always the street samurai with something in the 20s or 30s on average and in the 40s if they were lucky or had a generous GM when it comes to availability), subtract 10 from that character's total (so the 34 becomes a 24), and you keep going down. Unmodified characters would be lucky to get an 11. So the street sam would go 2-3 times before everyone else got a shot...literally, since they would shoot everyone and combat would be over.

Switching it around was the best thing 3rd Ed did so everyone got to go on the first pass, and 4th Ed's system makes it even better to make sure that everyone gets a chance to do something. It makes perfect sense for a heavily cybered or magicked person to move two or three times faster than anyone else. Same for a hacker with a heavily modified commlink being able to run circles around everyone else on the Matrix.

What are the exact problems you have with the system as it stands currently?
Tyro
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Apr 9 2011, 06:58 PM) *
It's one of the things I like best about the Shadowrun system. It used to be worse. Back in 2nd Ed, everyone rolled Initiative dice, added it to Reflex, and that number was their Initiative Number. You start at the highest number (which was always the street samurai with something in the 20s or 30s on average and in the 40s if they were lucky or had a generous GM when it comes to availability), subtract 10 from that character's total (so the 34 becomes a 24), and you keep going down. Unmodified characters would be lucky to get an 11. So the street sam would go 2-3 times before everyone else got a shot...literally, since they would shoot everyone and combat would be over.

Switching it around was the best thing 3rd Ed did so everyone got to go on the first pass, and 4th Ed's system makes it even better to make sure that everyone gets a chance to do something. It makes perfect sense for a heavily cybered or magicked person to move two or three times faster than anyone else. Same for a hacker with a heavily modified commlink being able to run circles around everyone else on the Matrix.

What are the exact problems you have with the system as it stands currently?

Like I said, just looking into alternatives. I make house rules as a hobby of sorts. I kinda like the SR3 system, actually. I'll likely keep it as-is, but I know some people have alternate systems they use and I was curious to see them in full.
jaellot
Are you familiar with previous editions' initiative rolls? Compared to IP's, it's not simple though. Well, not as simple and straight forward.
Seerow
Honestly the only change I'd make would be expanding on initiative passes, rather than eliminating them.


I'd make it so there's always 4 passes. Anyone can choose which of those passes they wish to take actions on, rather than taking the action on that first pass every time. Someone with more IPs gets to choose more passes to act on, until at 4 passes you act on all of them. Meanwhile, movement gets split up among the passes, everyone can move every pass, even if they don't have any other actions that pass. This negates the weirdness of a 1 IP person seeming to move farther faster than a 4 IP person.
Yerameyahu
I like SR3's best, actually. Everyone goes once, and you also get that fun random element. smile.gif What's not to love?

I also love that the reaction from everyone to the question 'what other init ideas are out there?' is 'what's wrong with you, why would you ask?'. biggrin.gif I've definitely seen these ideas posted here, variations on 'action point' or 'action pool' systems. Not my cup of tea, but you might consider that.

In SR4, movement is already split up by pass (conceptually); the exception is the 'weird' Sprint rules, which may or may not make sense. Movement doesn't take extra actions, unless you're Sprinting (AFAIK).
Abstruse
QUOTE (Seerow @ Apr 9 2011, 09:23 PM) *
Honestly the only change I'd make would be expanding on initiative passes, rather than eliminating them.


I'd make it so there's always 4 passes. Anyone can choose which of those passes they wish to take actions on, rather than taking the action on that first pass every time. Someone with more IPs gets to choose more passes to act on, until at 4 passes you act on all of them. Meanwhile, movement gets split up among the passes, everyone can move every pass, even if they don't have any other actions that pass. This negates the weirdness of a 1 IP person seeming to move farther faster than a 4 IP person.

THAT has always bothered me. I prefer having everyone move their movement on each phase. What bugs me is when someone who is wired so fast they blur not being able to out-run a Str 1/Agi 1 character and if they do, just barely being able to do so after a skill roll.
Yerameyahu
Can you guys explain this movement issue? AFAIK, it doesn't exist, so I'm wondering. Walking is a non-action, Running is a Free action, so the 4IP guy should just as easily be able to Walk or Run as the 1IP guy. Arguably, Mr. 4 has to spend 4 Free Actions to keep running, but that's not punitive: Mr. 1 had to spend the same proportion of Free Actions, after all. The both move the same distance (if desired), because Movement Rate is per Turn.
Tyro
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 9 2011, 07:35 PM) *
Can you guys explain this movement issue? AFAIK, it doesn't exist, so I'm wondering. Walking is a non-action, Running is a Free action, so the 4IP guy should just as easily be able to Walk or Run as the 1IP guy. Arguably, Mr. 4 has to spend 4 Free Actions to keep running, but that's not punitive: Mr. 1 had to spend the same proportion of Free Actions, after all. The both move the same distance (if desired), because Movement Rate is per Turn.

Taking simple actions to sprint (SR4A 148). 4 IPs means 4 simple actions, which leads to crazy speed.
Yerameyahu
That's what I mentioned above, but it's not what they're talking about. And honestly, it's not Sprinting that's the problem; Wires *should* make you fast. The problem is that the base movement rates are Olympic-class to begin with.
Seerow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 10 2011, 04:35 AM) *
Can you guys explain this movement issue? AFAIK, it doesn't exist, so I'm wondering. Walking is a non-action, Running is a Free action, so the 4IP guy should just as easily be able to Walk or Run as the 1IP guy. Arguably, Mr. 4 has to spend 4 Free Actions to keep running, but that's not punitive: Mr. 1 had to spend the same proportion of Free Actions, after all. The both move the same distance (if desired), because Movement Rate is per Turn.


The problem I have isn't the base move per turn, it's that the 1 IP guy gets all of his movement at once, while the 4 IP guy gets his split among 4 IPs.



So say you have a 1 IP guy and a 4 IP guy.


1 IP guy runs, and ducks around a corner 28 meters away, getting 2 meters inside the corner.

4 IP guy now has to run for all 4 of his passes before he catches up to where 1 IP guy was, and thus his entire action advantage is wasted.





With what I posted above, instead you'd have 4 IPs, and each character is moving 1/4 of their total turn's movement rate per pass. That way the 1 IP guy doesn't get his full 30 meters all at once, but instead moves at the same rate as the 4 IP guy (barring actions spent on sprinting from either side, racial bonuses, or any other such modifiers)




Also, I agree that the movement rates as they are are pretty silly. A sedate walk is almost 4 miles an hour (I dunno about you, but that's typically jogging speed. I'd consider a walking speed about half that), and your average baseline run speed is 22 miles an hour. A quick google search shows a relatively recent record (not saying up to date, it was a quick search) of a 400 meter sprint as 43 seconds. This translates to 20.8 miles an hour. Yep, your typical shadowrunner with no athletics skill can beat out world class sprinters.

Baseline move speeds should seriously just be cut in half across the board, and should probably be boosted some for many non-drone vehicles. (For example there's several vehicles whose top speed is 75 meters per turn, that's roughly 55 miles an hour. Your average shadowrunner can sprint half as fast as these cars can drive, and you can't take these cars onto a highway even today. I would expect more from technology at the level shadowrun has available)

But that's really a whole different subject.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 9 2011, 10:24 PM) *
I also love that the reaction from everyone to the question 'what other init ideas are out there?' is 'what's wrong with you, why would you ask?'.

I didn't ask what was wrong with him, I just wanted clarification as to which of several different aspects of the IP system he might find problematic. I agree that it can be a little wonky at times, but personally I consider that an inescapable consequence of abstraction.
Abstruse
A guy with 4 IP can perform four times more actions in 6 seconds than someone with 1 IP. However, both can only run 25m in that time. So gone is the super-samurai running 60 MPH, which was something I really liked. So my problem with this isn't IPs, it's how movement is handled in combat.
Makki
we house ruled, PC can chose how many m he wants to move in each pass. the sum mpy not exceed 25.
Yerameyahu
Seerow, both guys move the same 25m, in the same 4 IPs. Like I said, it's *already* split up by pass; Mr. 1 doesn't get around the corner before Mr. 4 can do anything. See: "This means a character with only one action, for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walk- ing or running the same throughout subsequent Initiative Passes." Even disregarding common sense, this clearly indicates that movement is divided into IPs whenever relevant.

Abstruse, you *can* use your extra IPs to take Sprint actions (arguably), if you agree that 'extra IPs'='extra speed' (as opposed to just 'faster reflexes'). Opinions differ on that point, but I see merit in both sides.

So… both problems solved. In the words of John Hodgman: you're welcome.
hobgoblin
The way i get around the IP "issues" are to consider the acceleration cognitive, not physical. That is; the meat is able to handle these speeds already, but the brain can not control it well at those speeds (consider stuff like tunnel vision and such). What WR do is allow the brain to actually keep up with what is happening.
Abstruse
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 9 2011, 10:23 PM) *
Abstruse, you *can* use your extra IPs to take Sprint actions (arguably), if you agree that 'extra IPs'='extra speed' (as opposed to just 'faster reflexes'). Opinions differ on that point, but I see merit in both sides.

Still doesn't work because all that allows is an addition of 2m per hit on a skill test, which just isn't the same IMO.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, that's the other side of that question. There's definitely some messy parts in there, of course: if you can punch 4 times, or shoot 8 different targets, it's easy to see where 'run faster' could sneak in. But then you can argue that those are already within the body's ability, and the reflexes/mental side is the limiter. In the end, it's pick a side and enjoy, because the 'scientific explanation' is an arbitrary mess either way. smile.gif

Don't be greedy, Abstruse. That's *really* fast. Stupid-fast, if you read some of the threads exploring the implications of it (allowing multiple checks per IP and/or Turn). biggrin.gif It's 2m *per hit*, after all, when your base is 25. You've absolutely got people running 60mph by the SR4 rules… not that they should, or that it was ever a reasonable thing in any edition.
Tyro
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 9 2011, 09:34 PM) *
Yeah, that's the other side of that question. There's definitely some messy parts in there, of course: if you can punch 4 times, or shoot 8 different targets, it's easy to see where 'run faster' could sneak in. But then you can argue that those are already within the body's ability, and the reflexes/mental side is the limiter. In the end, it's pick a side and enjoy, because the 'scientific explanation' is an arbitrary mess either way. smile.gif

Don't be greedy, Abstruse. That's *really* fast. Stupid-fast, if you read some of the threads exploring the implications of it (allowing multiple checks per IP and/or Turn). biggrin.gif It's 2m *per hit*, after all, when your base is 25. You've absolutely got people running 60mph by the SR4 rules… not that they should, or that it was ever a reasonable thing in any edition.

Yeah, sprint as-is can get pretty silly spin.gif
Epicedion
The IP system is abstracted pretty heavily, and doesn't really work in some cases when you put it onto a hex grid and plot out actions pass by pass.

The best way to handle it is just to make allowances so that the 1 IP guy sprinting past a hallway doesn't necessarily get to bypass the squad of 4 IP street samurai in the hallway without a couple shots going off. Just apply some appropriate modifiers and move on.

Also remember that splitting up movement should only happen when actions require it, and actions can happen anywhere along movement. It's supposed to be to the benefit of the guy with 4 IPs to be able to say "action 1 is here, action 2 is here."

But forcing the 1 IP guys to split their movement out into multiple passes is just mean. When they say "I'm running to cover and taking a couple shots," just give them their cover bonus and penalize the shooter for shooting a running target. Give them their penalty for shooting from cover. You don't have to plot their movement out IP by IP and give the street sam 3 turns of shooting at them in the open and 1 in cover.

Likewise, don't force the street sam to split up his movement if all he's doing is running to cover and shooting a bunch. Toss the penalties into the mix and roll with it. Only split up his movement if he's doing something that forces him to be in specific places at specific times in the turn -- when he's shooting down the hallway to his left, then running up a few meters and shooting down the hallway to the right, then running up a few more meters and tossing a grenade straight up into a ventilation shaft, then diving behind a table and reloading his guns.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 9 2011, 11:38 PM) *
Taking simple actions to sprint (SR4A 148). 4 IPs means 4 simple actions, which leads to crazy speed.


Only If you want to break the System.
For me its clear that you can Sprint (and Roll the Dice) only once per Round
But that has allready been dicussed(often !!)

@Seerow
QUOTE
1 IP guy runs, and ducks around a corner 28 meters away, getting 2 meters inside the corner.

no he doesn't !
He is 28 Meters away at the End of the Round in the meantime everybody else can shoot at him !
(its not an immediate Teleport ,but a continous movement )

QUOTE
4 IP guy now has to run for all 4 of his passes before he catches up to where 1 IP guy was, and thus his entire action advantage is wasted.

4 IP Guys runs just as Far but can shoot 1P Guy 3 more Times so he still has his advantage

QUOTE
Also, I agree that the movement rates as they are are pretty silly. A sedate walk is almost 4 miles an hour (I dunno about you, but that's typically jogging speed.

Too much; Yes
Silly ; No

QUOTE
For example there's several vehicles whose top speed is 75 meters per turn, that's roughly 55 miles an hour.

thats the safe topspeed they can go faster but need controll-Rolls wink.gif

He who Dances only once per Post
Medicineman
Summerstorm
I though about IP's and the whole timing in combat, and i think SR has, and always had, some serious problems with it.

Might be me of course. But not only me, but also many people i talked with, prefer a combat system to "use as much time as is needed" for a combat round. That means variable speeds depending on what NPC's and player want to do, and maybe even abstraction of ammo consumpion/ applicable hit etc..

SR is just too ridiculesly fast-paced and unforgiving. It speeds up most action to insane speeds (jacking locks is measured in CT's... 3 seconds, even with opening one and closing it up a good specialist can bypass it in about 15 seconds, a bareknuckle-fight between good fighters will never EVER reach a second round without forcefully abstracting the combat rules... People are shooting like maniacs - if we count all those as aimed shots (which they are) and horribly SLOW for prepared rapid fire.

The whole pacing seems... unrealistic BECAUSE they tried making it all to possible real-world speeds.

For example: No one ever can flee, or even surrender. The actions needed to duck in perfect cover and say the words: "STOP... please... i have kids" mosty get overidden by the foes riddling you with bullets.

I have problems timing reinforcements... as a complete infiltration will mostly be limited by time MOVING through the buildings, not by fighting or circumventing "normal" security measures. - I can't throw massive ultralocks on steeldoors in the way wherever i want.

Back on topic though: Yes, in my game people reach a position when they ran for a while.. not teleporting around like in THAT game. If you have 1 IP and neet to run about 10 meters, another dude has 4 IP... it is likely he can shoot you for about 2 of them. Even if you only need to run 2 meters... you are exposed and he is FAST. He at least can use his next actions on you without your cover.

I saw someone mentioning some kind of "pyramid" for IP's stacking/shuffling them more realistic without them losing that much power.

Also i support (of course i do that) the older versions: Roll xD6 add to reaction, take 10 off when you do something. (We played with SR2 speeds, faster ones can have multiple actions first) Most harsh, but realistic. Doesn't cuddle the weak *g*, but also provided non-enhanced but massivly trained individuals with more actions without needing to use "edge".
Epicedion
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Apr 10 2011, 02:43 AM) *
a bareknuckle-fight between good fighters will never EVER reach a second round without forcefully abstracting the combat rules...


This actually isn't true. It's true that a fistfight between two heavily augmented fighters with bone lacing won't last very long, but between two "normal" people who are doing (Str/2)S damage and only rolling 6 or so dice at each other, it's going to take a few rounds. And remember, this isn't a boxing match or the movies. It's supposed to represent two people trying to injure each other. Go pick a fight at a biker bar and see if it lasts more than 10 seconds.

Shadowrun fights take place in augmented reality. Not as in AR, but rather as in a world where people wire their bodies to be three times as fast and strong as normal. They wire their guns to their brains. No, you don't have time to say "please don't shoot me," because the other guy has already aimed and fired four shots before the impulse made it from your unaugmented brain to your unaugmented mouth.

An average gunfight (between two people, in a self-defense situation) in reality might last 5 seconds at the outside, or part of two SR combat turns. This means that, if we're talking about reflecting reality, a fight between two people with 4 IPs should be over in 1-2 IPs.

If you want combats to take awhile, those combats need to be at long range in poor visibility with good cover on each side. If you think point-blank pistol matches in a featureless alley are too short for anyone involved to think, that means they're probably taking too long to be realistic.
Socinus
While I agree that the IP system is a little clunky when you try to fit it to real life, I dont really see that it NEEDS fixing.

That said, I'd be interested to see what other concepts were out there.

I'd be very hesitant to change out the IP system since SO many things in Shadowrun go off that system. My concern is either installing a landmine somewhere down the line of the game where a character uses something that screws up the game in some way because of the system change. At that point, depending on the severity of the snag, you'd end up just re-writing half the system to make your new idea work.

Shadowrun is, on the whole, a good system and I'm hesitant to start playing Jenga with it; especially with the bricks closest to the bottom.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 10 2011, 11:24 AM) *
Shadowrun is, on the whole, a good system

There are those out there that would (not so) respectfully disagree with you on that. I am not one of those tho, but then my approach to RPG rules are that they are there, now deal with it (in much the same way as one deal with the laws of physics).
Socinus
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 10 2011, 10:29 AM) *
There are those out there that would (not so) respectfully disagree with you on that. I am not one of those tho, but then my approach to RPG rules are that they are there, now deal with it (in much the same way as one deal with the laws of physics).

There are FAR worse systems out there and with a flexible GM, Shadowrun is a thoroughly enjoyable game. Expecting a game to be able to perfectly account for and handle all the intricacies life in general can throw at us is, IMHO, impossible. Hell even writing an RPG just to cover one person's daily average life would be pretty damn difficult.

I'm always a little hesitant to hack out huge chunks of a game system to re-work them unless there is a DIRE need to do so. I try not to let perfect be the enemy of good.
Tyro
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 10 2011, 02:43 AM) *
There are FAR worse systems out there and with a flexible GM, Shadowrun is a thoroughly enjoyable game. Expecting a game to be able to perfectly account for and handle all the intricacies life in general can throw at us is, IMHO, impossible. Hell even writing an RPG just to cover one person's daily average life would be pretty damn difficult.

I'm always a little hesitant to hack out huge chunks of a game system to re-work them unless there is a DIRE need to do so. I try not to let perfect be the enemy of good.

You have a point there. I mostly confine myself to minor tweaks, for the record. I just wanted to know more about these alternate systems I sometimes see talked about.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 10 2011, 11:43 AM) *
There are FAR worse systems out there and with a flexible GM, Shadowrun is a thoroughly enjoyable game. Expecting a game to be able to perfectly account for and handle all the intricacies life in general can throw at us is, IMHO, impossible. Hell even writing an RPG just to cover one person's daily average life would be pretty damn difficult.

I'm always a little hesitant to hack out huge chunks of a game system to re-work them unless there is a DIRE need to do so. I try not to let perfect be the enemy of good.

Heh, i did not say that their claims would be rooted in facts or such wink.gif
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