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Machiavelli
What the topic says. What do you think from which point on you only start to fill up holes instead of balancing disadvantages out you had through the limitations at chargen? All opinions are welcome.
James McMurray
It depends on the character. Unawakened characters will run out of things to spend karma on much sooner than awakened ones (who never run out since they can initiatei infinitely).

It also depends on the campaign and the GM. If the GM wants to run a street level campaign and is uncomfortable or unwilling to run a high powered game then you might become unplayable after 100 karma.

It also depends on how balanced your character was at the start. If you started with ~20 gun dice at the expense of 35 points of negative qualities and ones in several stats then it will take you a lot longer to pull yourself up to average in those areas than it would the guy who only went with 15 gun dice but has a lot of secondary skills and no stats at 1.
Cheops
When you only have 8-14 hit points and each successful attack is dealing 4+ you never reach a point where you have too much Karma. At the very least Street Sams can always burn Edge to survive that bazooka shot to the face and then buy the attribute point back. Essentially karma becomes a damage soak at high enough levels.

Plus don't overlook knowledge skills. The difference between a prime runner and a gutter punk is the Knowledge Skills.
Blade
It depends on a lot of things, but from experience, I've got the impression that the imbalance between characters start to show around 100 karma points, especially with awakened characters.

Though with some players, you'll have characters that are far more powerful at chargen than other character with 100 karma points.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 19 2011, 11:12 AM) *
Though with some players, you'll have characters that are far more powerful at chargen than other character with 100 karma points.


This.

Money is also a factor, however.

My last character would have needed about 50-75 karma to reach the level of ability the other players started with (I essentially had 60 BP that wasn't doing anything useful).
Nath
In my opinion, characters really are "unplayable" in two cases :
- when the Gamemaster is no longer willing, background-wise, to increase police/security/military stats and gear to keep your character in line when he needs to
- when your abilities, whatever they are, makes one of your teammate useless.
Note those has nothing to do with karma, and can actually happen at chargen.
Cheops
/signed

Also, when you as a player decides in character that your character is comfortable enough to retire. I've had that happen in some campaigns.
Scyldemort
Unplayable? Never, really. Oh, sure, you can have a character more and more able to murder people, but once you're able to kill someone without much in the way of effort, there's really not much that changes by getting even MORE able to kill people. Attributes have a cap. Social skills have a cap. Matrix skills have a cap. Magic has no cap, but functionally, there's no reason to go above Magic 8 unless you're a Mystic Adept.

No longer fun to play? Depends on the GM. Storytelling and roleplaying counts for a lot with longevity of characters. If all you're doing is taking mercenary jobs and hitting various facilities, and it's one mission after another, with the primary goal to get more powerful? That gets old right quick regardless of what level of karma you're at. If you've got a good story with compelling characters and roleplayed well who have concrete goals and motivations and pasts and who happen to be a frighteningly lethal? That's got some longevity to it.
Bira
QUOTE (Nath @ Apr 19 2011, 03:10 PM) *
- when the Gamemaster is no longer willing, background-wise, to increase police/security/military stats and gear to keep your character in line when he needs to


That doesn't sound very fun - neither the "arms race" part, nor the one where the GM feels the need to keep the characters "in line". What's the problem with switching the type of story that happens in the campaign when characters grow too big for the gutter?
Scyldemort
QUOTE (Bira @ Apr 19 2011, 08:42 PM) *
That doesn't sound very fun - neither the "arms race" part, nor the one where the GM feels the need to keep the characters "in line". What's the problem with switching the type of story that happens in the campaign when characters grow too big for the gutter?


This.

If you want a street level game with low power levels, start at 300 BP and don't ever give out more than 4 karma per session.
Lugburz
QUOTE (Scyldemort @ Apr 19 2011, 03:11 PM) *
No longer fun to play? Depends on the GM. Storytelling and roleplaying counts for a lot with longevity of characters. If all you're doing is taking mercenary jobs and hitting various facilities, and it's one mission after another, with the primary goal to get more powerful? That gets old right quick regardless of what level of karma you're at. If you've got a good story with compelling characters and roleplayed well who have concrete goals and motivations and pasts and who happen to be a frighteningly lethal? That's got some longevity to it.



Couldn't agree more. We've had a campaign going for a while which really hit critical mass a while back with compelling characters and their interaction with each other. Playing a physical adept in that one and have collected just over 300 karma- probably helps that we're awarded no more than 4 per session, not counting the completion-of-objective awards at the ends of our very long campaigns. Could easily spend the next 100+ karma on magic, but that sounds like the easy way out, even if I am only tossing a base 12 dice to kick ghosts in their spooky faces. (Not counting attribute boost, edge, and the like.) The character's already nicely diversified, but there's never a wrong reason to diversify more. Someone mentioned something about knowledge skills a while back. Once again, I heartily agree. Knowledge skills are great. And if your GM is smart, you'll be using them frequently in-game.

Now if only I would stop being such a newbie GM and remember to call on my players' knowledge skills more often.
Irion
Well, it depends on. I guess with around 2000 Karma you wild end up asking yourselve what you are doing, since increasing anything does not really change your character.
What is the point getting magic from 14 to 15?
Getting the 100. spell?

Mundane chars will run out of options earlyer.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 19 2011, 05:01 PM) *
What the topic says.


A character becomes unplayable when you're losing interest in him. In most cases this won't happen because of to much karma. My one and only SR character for the last 8 years has no dice pool above 14. I've spend easily 100+ of his 480 karma points on knowledge skills. - Okay, he's a cyber-mage with essence 2 and magic 5, but technically speaking he's spend 168 karma points to much, if I'd have to raise the attributes with x5. I don't think this character will become unplayable anytime soon.
Glyph
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 19 2011, 07:05 AM) *
It also depends on how balanced your character was at the start. If you started with ~20 gun dice at the expense of 35 points of negative qualities and ones in several stats then it will take you a lot longer to pull yourself up to average in those areas than it would the guy who only went with 15 gun dice but has a lot of secondary skills and no stats at 1.

Really? Because actually, the hyper-specialist should improve faster. He's raising stuff from 1 to 2, while the other guy is trying to raise them from 4 to 6.


I don't think characters becoming unplayable is the amount of karma, per se, but how adaptable the players, and the campaign, are to the changes. You have too much karma when instead of looking for new challenges, you are just rolling more dice to kill the same things.
Thanee
At 537 Karma, precisely. wink.gif

No, really, it depends on so many factors, Karma is one of the least important of those.

Bye
Thanee
Machiavelli
I was just asking, because i now reached 130 karma and after a little forecast i think i will reach maximum attributes (only the needed ones) and skills in another 200 karma. I am not going to raise attributes the normal way, so i save a lot of karma by anchoring "increased attributes" spells. With my decent little rating 6 spell-locks (sustaining focus) i gain access to a lot of "mundane" skills that might be needed at some time (analyze device spell) and i am not planning to initiate higher than level 5. Now i am at level 2 and with level 5 i have access to most of the metatechniques i want. My main-skills (conjuring, spellcasting, spelldefense) are already on softmax and powerfoci etc. are no option for my character. This means i will need karma for initation, raise of the magic attribute (8-9) and some more spells plus the costs for anchoring. After this stage, i will run around with body 9, charisma 12, reaction 9, magic 9, something around 20 dices for dodging and so on….the GM would need really bad guys to scare me off while the other characters wouldn´t be half as far as i am in direct comparison. Like i was going to say as we played Earthdawn and Das schwarze Auge ages ago „you can´t kill a dragon every day“….
James McMurray
QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 19 2011, 09:47 PM) *
Really? Because actually, the hyper-specialist should improve faster. He's raising stuff from 1 to 2, while the other guy is trying to raise them from 4 to 6.


I said "to become average" not "to improve." To have an average (3) Charisma the guy who dumped it to 1 has to pay 25 karma. The guy who started with a 2 only pays 15. The true generalist who started at 3 is already there.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 20 2011, 08:50 AM) *
I was just asking, because i now reached 130 karma and after a little forecast i think i will reach maximum attributes (only the needed ones) and skills in another 200 karma. I am not going to raise attributes the normal way, so i save a lot of karma by anchoring "increased attributes" spells. With my decent little rating 6 spell-locks (sustaining focus) i gain access to a lot of "mundane" skills that might be needed at some time (analyze device spell) and i am not planning to initiate higher than level 5. Now i am at level 2 and with level 5 i have access to most of the metatechniques i want. My main-skills (conjuring, spellcasting, spelldefense) are already on softmax and powerfoci etc. are no option for my character. This means i will need karma for initation, raise of the magic attribute (8-9) and some more spells plus the costs for anchoring. After this stage, i will run around with body 9, charisma 12, reaction 9, magic 9, something around 20 dices for dodging and so on….the GM would need really bad guys to scare me off while the other characters wouldn´t be half as far as i am in direct comparison. Like i was going to say as we played Earthdawn and Das schwarze Auge ages ago „you can´t kill a dragon every day“….


If there's such a thing as "only the needed attributes" in a campaign, the GM is doing it wrong IMO.
Cheops
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 20 2011, 02:52 PM) *
If there's such a thing as "only the needed attributes" in a campaign, the GM is doing it wrong IMO.


Or the players are just doing it very very right and are always able to plan such that the best asset for any particular task is always the one on the scene. You can't always blame the GM -- especially in well played groups, as most tend to be by session 13 (~137 karma). This is especially true in "basic" Shadowrun where you are mostly taking mercenary contracts to infiltrate facilities and commit theft/kidnapping/sabotage. Plus it sounds like he is using magic spells to increase the other attributes and cover his bases (needed = ones that are vital if his anchored spell is dispelled).

Again, as a player you should, unless playing a raving psycho/socio-path, hit a point where your character says "I'm too old for this shit!" Then it is up to you to decide if he'll keep doing that shit or finally turn in his badge.
Prime Mover
I like the option of swapping out karma for cash and vice versa. This lets awakened and non awakened to scale up together.

As for the question. I don't think you can set a karma "ceiling". As mentioned here already, once the GM and/or the players can no longer feel/be challenged it's time to consider retirement.

That having been said I have several players from first edition an adept and a mage respectively that still make an appearance from time to time. They actually complain the conversion to 4th edition toned them down some. While still extremely competent I've been able to them challenged. Just have to be able to run smart and scale encounters on the fly.
Machiavelli
There are definitely attributes that are vital for your character class and some that aren´t. So there is neither something wrong with the GM nor with the players. For a charisma-tradition mage, needed attributes are the mentioned ones (i think you have enough background knowledge to know why) while things like strenght, logic etc. are neglectable. After you reached level 5 in initiation (incl. masking) your spells a likely to be dispelled anymore, especially not all of them. Also you don´t deal with BC anymore, because the metatechniques that are prerequisite for an initiate at this powerlevel are cleansing/filtering. After this point, there is nothing left that would be absolutely needed. Of course, like i said, you can go powergaming-extreme and max. everything, no matter if needed or not, but it makes no sense anymore. I thought this point of "it makes no sense to play/run anymore" would be far, far away, but 200 karma is not that much i have to say. So the end is near.^^
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 20 2011, 03:50 PM) *
... the GM would need really bad guys to scare me off while the other characters wouldn´t be half as far as i am in direct comparison. Like i was going to say as we played Earthdawn and Das schwarze Auge ages ago „you can´t kill a dragon every day“….


If your GM plays SR like a Django movie he might run out of challenges. If the NPCs start thinking and use some tactics, even a street gang will be dangerous on their home ground. - And never forget, one sole sniper can kill a 2.000 karma character just as well as any 20 karma one!

Btw, if your totally maxing out your character, you shouldn't be surprised when the system starts falling apart.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Scyldemort @ Apr 19 2011, 03:11 PM) *
If all you're doing is taking mercenary jobs and hitting various facilities, and it's one mission after another, with the primary goal to get more powerful? That gets old right quick regardless of what level of karma you're at. If you've got a good story with compelling characters and roleplayed well who have concrete goals and motivations and pasts and who happen to be a frighteningly lethal? That's got some longevity to it.


+1

Being lethal is not the problem in shadowrun. Gangers can be just as lethal as a corp cyborg....All I need is just a compelling story, and a compelling reason to continue running. Sometimes the story requires the PC's to retire prematurely though.
Irion
@Doc Byte
QUOTE
And never forget, one sole sniper can kill a 2.000 karma character just as well as any 20 karma one!

Sorry, but this is wrong. At least for any "mages" and "adepts". (I mean how to even see a freaking Magic 15 pixie?)
Draco18s
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 20 2011, 04:31 PM) *
Sorry, but this is wrong. At least for any "mages" and "adepts". (I mean how to even see a freaking Magic 15 pixie?)


Ultrasound. cool.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 20 2011, 01:31 PM) *
Sorry, but this is wrong. At least for any "mages" and "adepts". (I mean how to even see a freaking Magic 15 pixie?)


Radar... smokin.gif
Irion
How does this help against Concealment?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 20 2011, 02:49 PM) *
How does this help against Concealment?


Well, I have a character with 20 Dice for Perception (which is hardly maxed)... How is Concealment going to help against that? I still have at least 5 DICE in your Pixie with Magic 15 Scenario... And the character had that from the beginning, which your Pixie did not.

Magical Invisibility does not work against Radar. It is arguable that Concealment works against it.
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So you get 5 dices for my pixie wearing a Chameleon Suit.
And we can agree to a pixie beeing small. So have fun getting those three hits with 5 dices. (Sorry, my fault with one dice)

QUOTE
Magical Invisibility does not work against Radar. It is arguable that Concealment works against it.

Well, I do not see why. Concealment works against any form of perception, so...

QUOTE
I still have at least 5 DICE

About "at least" I do not know. Depends on how you are reading the rules I guess. (And about how the character is build)

My point here was, that with enough Karma Magic is adding up to rediculus dice pools.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 20 2011, 10:31 PM) *
@Doc Byte

Sorry, but this is wrong. At least for any "mages" and "adepts". (I mean how to even see a freaking Magic 15 pixie?)


The point of a sniper is, you don't know he's there (Even the extended 'detect enemy' spell won't work on a sniper about half a mile away below Magic 7 and massive overcasting.) and unless you're extremely paranoid you won't be cloaked all the time. Heck, if the sniper teams up with an apt hacker, he's shooting the poor mage right through the wall by aiming at the AR marker the hacker created based on the location of the mage's comlink.


€dit: I love combat drones with olfactory sensors. The machine doesn't care if it sees or smells the target. Back it up with a wi-fi scanner and have fun at GM'ing. And don't forget the smoke projector filled with Neurostun. Works great with a 'dead drone' trigger.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 20 2011, 04:45 PM) *
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So you get 5 dices for my pixie wearing a Chameleon Suit.
And we can agree to a pixie beeing small. So have fun getting those three hits with 5 dices. (Sorry, my fault with one dice)


Well, I do not see why. Concealment works against any form of perception, so...


About "at least" I do not know. Depends on how you are reading the rules I guess. (And about how the character is build)

My point here was, that with enough Karma Magic is adding up to rediculus dice pools.


Again... The character started with 20 Dice, out of Character generation. Give the character the same amount of Karma your Ludicrous Pixie Received to get to Magic 15, and I am absolutely positive that the character will see that pixie with plenty of dice to spare. Keep on believeing otherwise, though. You really are hilarious sometimes, you know that? smile.gif
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
If he has no magic I would highly question that. (At least if you do not add the bonus dices from visual, acustical etc.l together.)

Lets see:
You get Perceptive 2, Attention Coprocessor (Rating 1–3), Reception Enhancer (Rating 1–3) , Synch (1), Limbic Nanites (Rating 1–3),Qualia(+1),Oracle reality amplifier +2
3+3+1+3+1+2=17 dices
Now you get bonus dices depending on what kind of perception it is (visual, acustical etc) this gets up to 6 for taste and smell, audio and visual is about +3 I suppose.
Since you got to see your target we stay with +3.
So now we have 13 dices.
Lets use a standart human for starters with Intuition 6(9). Add to that metagenetic improvement, improved attribute and genetic optimization and you end up with
9(13). The skill gets as high as 7+2=9
So we end up with 17+3+9+9(since I do not know of any ware increasing intuition)= 38
Then there are some drugs increasing intuition or perception:
Betel +1(Per), Buzz+1 (int). Trance +1(int), Nitro +2(per), Novacoke +1 (Per), Psyche +1 (int),Sideways +1 (per), Inspiration +1 (intuition)
This adds up to an other +9. (I am not aware of any intuition increasing ware)

So you get a max dicepool around 47. (And the drug coctail will probably kill you)

Yeah, you may double your dice pool. But I did not even get started on the stuff you may do to hide.
(And you have to consider this character would be highly specialized (while haing limited essence). While Magic 15 is useable for a lot of other stuff.
Camouflage alone would reduce your pool big time (easy up to 15 minus your hits on counterspelling not to mention your attack pool gets dropped by the same amount)
And if we start to realy go "by the rules" there is nothin stopping me from increasing the number of hits with edge.
Not to mention you would need line of sight first.

QUOTE
Give the character the same amount of Karma your Ludicrous Pixie Received to get to Magic 15

The karma was 2000 as said in the post I replied to.

And I am not sure about the threshold for searching one special pixie in a city. Thats much worse than a needle in haystack

So yes you might be able to build a mudane char who is able to spot said pixie mage(or any mage with concealment this high) under ideal circumstances.
But you have to consider, that the mage will probably be aware of you much sooner.
(I mean what do you expect if you are talking about amounts of Karma beyond ridiculous?)

I mean the pixie is still not over the top. Lets think about a free spirit for a moment.
He would probably go up to Force 13, Edge 12 having 8 increase attributes spells (Force 13) quickend (since he is not allowed to use foci)
leaving him with:
13 Points of Concealment(and most of the other "good deals") and about 15+ in every attribute.
At some point, the rules do just break. There is no game with a "buying" system where you can give unlimited XP without breaking it at some point.
@Doc Byte
QUOTE
(Even the extended 'detect enemy' spell won't work on a sniper about half a mile away below Magic 7 and massive overcasting.)

Well, you said 2000 Karma.
So even a quickend Force 15 spell won't be a problem. Even masking would apply
This would give me a range of:
Force x Magic x 10 meters = 2250 meters. (Nice)
(Magic 1 to 15= 595 Karma. 15 Initiations: rough about 311.
Lets round it up and say half the Karma.
I guess 300 Karma would do enough for the attributes (close to any attribute to 6). An other 330 Karma for the skills. (Thats 3 skill groups from 0 to 6)
Well lets say I would stay at about 400 Karma left now.
Lets buy a little Force 10 Powerfocus for 80 Karma.
A ally spirit Force 12 for 96 Karma. (lets give him some skills 5 for 25 Karma and some spells 10 for 30 Karma well and some other forms 6 Karma for 3)
Sustaining foci for a total of Force 50 for 100 Karma.
Still around 70 Karma left, so lets take 14 additional spells. (Assuming we started with at least 6)
This is no optimized build it is just an approximation of what a mage with 2000 Karma could look like.

QUOTE
Heck, if the sniper teams up with an apt hacker, he's shooting the poor mage right through the wall by aiming at the AR marker the hacker created based on the location of the mage's comlink.

Yeah. And hope you are shooting the right one. (And it would still be blind fire, the mage woud still get cover.)
QUOTE
The machine doesn't care if it sees or smells the target

Yeah, but the modifier do.
Machiavelli
Did this topic change from "when is a player unplayable" to "can i shoot mighty mages"? In this case you could drop a plane on him, tell a dragon that he tells stories of kicking dragon-butts all the time etc....everybody is killable, it is just more difficult the mightier he gets. I think we all know that already...^^
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Pretty Much... I mean really. I am not sure how we went from "When is a character Unplayable?" to "Look how ludicrous of a character I can make to break the system." We are WAY offf topic here.

Back on Topic. I have to agree with whomever it was who said that it ends when it is no longer interesting, for the player or the GM. For me, I tend to cycle through characters a lot, because I have SO MANY ideas I want to play with. Currently have about 40 character ideas in the wings that I have yet to play with. I do have my character preferences, though.

Radamanthas/Jenks: Mystic Adept of Black Magic Tradition. Manipulation Specialist. 190 Karma (4th Edition) - Currently Playing
Nexus: Human Cyberlogician. 318 Karma. (4th Edition) - In the Wings, Semi-Retired.
Cain: Human Physical Adept Freelance Intelligence Operative, Works for the highest bidder. 387 Karma. (Started in 2nd Edition)
Spikes: Troll Ex-Ganger Physical Adept. 187 Karma (Started in 3rd Edition)
El Leon de Acero: Human Full Borg Conversion, Enforcer for the Cartels in Bogota. 122 Karma (4th Edition)
Kawai Aki no Kami: Oni Ninja Adept, Last survivor of the Iga Clan. 118 Karma. (4th Edition)

Have many others, some from 2nd, some from 3rd. Most are from 4th.
My only 1st Edition Character I played I retired fairly early.
Never enough games to play in.
Irion
As a matter of fact we are trying to establish if it can be said that with X Karma a Character starts to break.
It seem like awakend characters can go a long way.
This guy:
QUOTE
Thomas is a Grade 5 initiate and magical researcher
working for a Saeder-Krupp operation on the moon’s surface.
He has a Magic attribute of 11 and a Spellcasting
skill of 6. The moon is lacking a substantial gaiasphere
of its own, so the laboratory where he works is considered
a Rating –9 Void. Thomas attempts to cast a Force 4
Phantasm spell. While this would be routine and simple
on Earth, it pushes his limits here on the moon. Since the
void reduces his Magic by its rating, his effective Magic
here is only 2 (11 – 9). A Force 4 spell is the limit of his
ability here (Magic x 2) and since the Force is higher than
his effective Magic, the Drain is Physical. He rolls 8 dice
on his Spellcasting Test (6 Spellcasting + 2 Magic) but he
will have to resist a great deal of Drain just to pull off this
small spell. The typical Drain for a Force 4 Phantasm spell
is 4 ((Force ÷ 2) + 2) but here the void adds the absolute
value of its rating to the Force of the spell for calculating
Drain. Instead of facing a Drain Value of 4, Thomas has to
face a Drain as if it was a Force 13 (4 + 9) spell, or a Drain
Value of 8 ((13 ÷ 2) + 2). Even a simple illusion can be a
difficult task for a trained initiate this far from Earth.

Would, I guess, have around 1000 Karma. So I guess this seems to be still ok.

So lets get a look at a mundane char.
Every attribute from 1 to 6 costs: 100 Karma.
Lets take the karma generation, because it makes things easier to calculate.

You could sink 930 Karma at max in the attributes of a human. If you consider that around 300 Karma were spent while generation you end up with 630 Karma.
A skill to 6 cost 44 Karma.
There are around 60 mundane skills in the book, thats another 2640 possible Karma. (35 skills are in 10 Skill groups so if you use them you end up with 2200 Karma)
Then you got some negative qualities to buy of and martial arts and other stuff.
But I guess that would not come above 1000 Karma.

Then there are languages and knowledgeskills worth thousands of Karma (or much less if you are using the right ware)
So lets just leave them up front, because most of them are not in the book.
So the "hard" skills end up to about 4200 Karma.


So I am just guessing but at around 5000 Karma you will run out of things to but Karma into.
And I guess with 6000 Karma you run out of space to write your non active skills down. So the character is unplayable.
Of course you could argue how much charachter a sheet with 6s and 5s in most of the skills is.

I guess this is the question you should really be asking: What makes a sheet of paper a character to play with and what destroys this immersion.
I guess this depends on who you ask. There are some people thinking, that a character should always have clear strenghts and clear weaknesses.
So the grim Sam who is good at shooting stuff would never dare to get the social skillgroup higher than 1.
It would also be vital, that everybody can see, that he is better with rifles than pistols, but a real genius with heavy weapons.
He is also good in hand to hand but prefers to shoot things. He can handle knifes but prefers to fight bare handed.

The clearer the picture of the character is getting, the harded it is to spend unlimited amount of Karma.
So heavy weapons would be 6. Rifles 5 and Pistols and Automatics 4.
Hand to Hand combat around 4, melee 3.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You can never run out of Knowledge SKills, which you indicated... wobble.gif
Languages are nigh Endless...
Nor will you ever likely run out of Artisan Skills (an Active Skill, so good Karma Sink for the Artistically inclined)...

Some Qualities are Open Ended... So the Hundreds, if not thousands of variations on Marital Arts could net you a whole lot of expenditures. Assuming you had a GM anal enough to generate the statistics for each of them. Again, already mentioned.

Lots of stuff to spend Karma on, for sure. The question is not a Karma Based one I do not think. At least, not at its core. Karma Could definitely be a determining factor in the decision, to be sure.

For me, it is generally not about Karma, it is about the Story. Do I have any more story to tell with this character? That is where I look at it. That is not to say that I do not ever revisit a character I have put aside. Sometimes, Stories come and go for a character. When I get a new idea for a new story, I revisit the character involved. I really do wish I was a better writer than I am, becuase I have a thousand stories about a hundred characters, percolating in my brain. It would really be nice to get them out. Alas, My journalism skills are a tad bit lacking for that. Likely because I do not practice them like I should.

Anyways...
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2011, 11:04 AM) *
Languages are nigh Endless...


Per the 15th edition of Ethnologue: Languages of the World there are 6,912 languages currently spoken.* 497 of which are expected to be extinct in the next 60 years.

*At least, that have been cataloged in any meaningful fashion. There's an estimate for up to 3000 more that exist that are just "unknown" (by which we mean unknown outside the pool of speakers and their local area).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 21 2011, 09:36 AM) *
Per the 15th edition of Ethnologue: Languages of the World there are 6,912 languages currently spoken.* 497 of which are expected to be extinct in the next 60 years.

*At least, that have been cataloged in any meaningful fashion. There's an estimate for up to 3000 more that exist that are just "unknown" (by which we mean unknown outside the pool of speakers and their local area).


And lets not forget about the dead languages...

At 22 karma to get a language to 6, that would be.... Lets see... 152,064 Karma for Languages Alone. Throw in the other 3000 languages that are listed as unknown... you get an additional 66,000 Karma... Are Dead languages Counted in the Unknown?

Hmmm... I need to go on more Runs...
toturi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2011, 10:28 AM) *
Again... The character started with 20 Dice, out of Character generation. Give the character the same amount of Karma your Ludicrous Pixie Received to get to Magic 15, and I am absolutely positive that the character will see that pixie with plenty of dice to spare. Keep on believeing otherwise, though. You really are hilarious sometimes, you know that? smile.gif

I am not too sure about that. I recall doing the math some time last year on a related question (Mr Perceptive vs Ms Pixie-Stealth), the more karma both sides get, the larger the gap between the Perceptive character has to overcome.

There are about the same number of dice adders as there are dice subtractors but considering that the pixie simply increases Magic without actual need to use the magic actively (Mr Perceptive actually has to spend power points to buy Perception, pixie just has better Concealment by virtue of Magic), Perception dice is slightly behind.

Sure, if the pixie is not actively using a Stealth skill and you are rolling against straight Thresholds, you could detect the pixie. But if the pixie is going active Stealth Group skill, I'd bet on the pixie, more so the more karma you pump into both characters.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 21 2011, 09:48 AM) *
I am not too sure about that. I recall doing the math some time last year on a related question (Mr Perceptive vs Ms Pixie-Stealth), the more karma both sides get, the larger the gap between the Perceptive character has to overcome.

There are about the same number of dice adders as there are dice subtractors but considering that the pixie simply increases Magic without actual need to use the magic actively (Mr Perceptive actually has to spend power points to buy Perception, pixie just has better Concealment by virtue of Magic), Perception dice is slightly behind.

Sure, if the pixie is not actively using a Stealth skill and you are rolling against straight Thresholds, you could detect the pixie. But if the pixie is going active Stealth Group skill, I'd bet on the pixie, more so the more karma you pump into both characters.


Lets not forget that you can negate penalties as well. No all bonuses add Dice. I believe that Irion got to a total of about 47 DICE to throw. Which does not count anything that will negate penalties outright, I do not believe. With just the -15 Concealment that was hypothesized, that still leaves more than enough Dice (32 to be exact) to account for most thresholds. As well, technology completely ignores some aspects of magic. Radar completely Ignores Invisibility. WHY? Because you will still cause a Radar Return. I would argue that Concealment works the same way. You still get a Radar Return, because you are STILL THERE. Also, Concealment does not hide your Signal Rating. SO you can EASILY be detected through that. If it is on, of course.

Anyways. It is an interesting Thought experiment, but has no relevance in a game. At least, not in any game that I have played. When is the last time you played a 2000 Karma Character Draco18s?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2011, 11:45 AM) *
Are Dead languages Counted in the Unknown?


Dead languages are above and beyond that. And I'd (personally) say that the more obscure a language is, the more karma needs to be spent to learn it.

I mean, really, if a language is spoken by three individuals on a remote island of Indonesia,* you can't just walk downtown or hit up Google for a language course.

*There were four, until the recent flooding.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2011, 11:56 AM) *
When is the last time you played a 2000 Karma Character Draco18s?


I believe you are arguing with the wrong person, there. smile.gif
James McMurray
Sorry guys, my hacker just dropped 370 Thor shots on the city both the mage and the sniper were doing their "now you see me, now you don't" dance in. rotfl.gif
Irion
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Yeah, if you just stuck all the DV boni together you end up punshing harder than an assault cannon. (+ 8 alone from the martial arts)

So yeah you could generate additional martial arts. But would it make things better?
(Run for your life he put away the katana!)

Btw: Thanks to Learning Stimulus (Rating up to 3) knowledge and and language skills cost only 5 Karma for 0 to 6. (And just two up to 3)

But thanks for showing me an other way to make a very stupid character.

@James McMurray
Yeah there is nothing better than beeing searched for several millions counts of murder.
(And how much damage does a thor shot actually do?)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 21 2011, 09:02 AM) *
I believe you are arguing with the wrong person, there. smile.gif

No argument intended... Was looking for another perspective. Am I one of the only ones not playing in such an epic game? smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2011, 12:20 PM) *
No argument intended... Was looking for another perspective. Am I one of the only ones not playing in such an epic game? smile.gif


Ahh, I see.
No, I've never played a game with that much Karma.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 21 2011, 09:13 AM) *
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Yeah, if you just stuck all the DV boni together you end up punshing harder than an assault cannon. (+ 8 alone from the martial arts)

So yeah you could generate additional martial arts. But would it make things better?
(Run for your life he put away the katana!)

Btw: Thanks to Learning Stimulus (Rating up to 3) knowledge and and language skills cost only 5 Karma for 0 to 6. (And just two up to 3)

But thanks for showing me an other way to make a very stupid character.


DV Bonuses cap at +3 from Martial Arts; Stated directly in the rules. smile.gif

Yeah, Learning Stimulus is Awesome. But each level will still cost a minimum of 1. smile.gif ANd your first level costs full Price, since it only applies to skills you already have.

No problems... There is no lack of things to spend Karma on, dependant upon how "Skilled" you want a character to be. smokin.gif
sabs
Learning Stimulas + Linguist

You get the first rank of any language for free smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ Apr 21 2011, 10:28 AM) *
Learning Stimulas + Linguist

You get the first rank of any language for free smile.gif


There you go... Actually have that for a character... it is a great combination.
Irion
QUOTE
DV Bonuses cap at +3 from Martial Arts; Stated directly in the rules.

Can't find it.

QUOTE
Yeah, Learning Stimulus is Awesome. But each level will still cost a minimum of 1.

Can't find it.
QUOTE
ANd your first level costs full Price, since it only applies to skills you already have.

I know. Thats why the first level cost 2 Karma. (I just said 3, because everyone pays 2 Karma for the first level, and so it would not have been awesome.

QUOTE
No problems... There is no lack of things to spend Karma on, dependant upon how "Skilled" you want a character to be.

Well, I guess thats true.
But it gets difficult if you want him to have good and not so good skills.
If he is best with Rifles (and rifle is 6) than everything else has to be 5 or lower.
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