They're on our game's site here. They're designed to be used with my random chase generator.
They may seem a little wordy at first, but I tend to get that way and I'm trying to make sure everything is spelled out. Also, the genertor was written for a different system so I have to explain the differences.
Basically:
1. Chasee sets his speed. Going real fast makes it harder to avoid obstacles.
2. Chaser sets his speed.
3. Generate a leg of the chase using the generator. The GM can change the leg if it doesn't make sense and the chasee can spend edge to do the same.
4. Do a round of combat. At some point drivers have to roll vehicle tests with a threshold based on the randomly generated leg.
5. At the end of the round both sides make vehicle tests modified by their speed. When one side gets enough successes they catch the other or escape.
Full Version: Chase rules for your perusal
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 19 2011, 09:16 PM) 
They're on our game's site here. They're designed to be used with my random chase generator.
They may seem a little wordy at first, but I tend to get that way and I'm trying to make sure everything is spelled out. Also, the genertor was written for a different system so I have to explain the differences.
Basically:
1. Chasee sets his speed. Going real fast makes it harder to avoid obstacles.
2. Chaser sets his speed.
3. Generate a leg of the chase using the generator. The GM can change the leg if it doesn't make sense and the chasee can spend edge to do the same.
4. Do a round of combat. At some point drivers have to roll vehicle tests with a threshold based on the randomly generated leg.
5. At the end of the round both sides make vehicle tests modified by their speed. When one side gets enough successes they catch the other or escape.
They may seem a little wordy at first, but I tend to get that way and I'm trying to make sure everything is spelled out. Also, the genertor was written for a different system so I have to explain the differences.
Basically:
1. Chasee sets his speed. Going real fast makes it harder to avoid obstacles.
2. Chaser sets his speed.
3. Generate a leg of the chase using the generator. The GM can change the leg if it doesn't make sense and the chasee can spend edge to do the same.
4. Do a round of combat. At some point drivers have to roll vehicle tests with a threshold based on the randomly generated leg.
5. At the end of the round both sides make vehicle tests modified by their speed. When one side gets enough successes they catch the other or escape.
I know that this has been asked in various other threads before, But what do you not like about the current Chase Rules? I have been using them for years with no real issues. Just want your perspective on what you think is broken.
Three things mainly:
1) You all but cannot escape a chase if there is more than a couple of cars on the opposite team. The -2 penalty per other car means that 3 police cars against one shadowrunner is an almost guaranteed capture unless that runner is built to be a driver. Add in 2 spotter drones and the guy's at a -8 penalty before factoring in anything else.
2) Crashes are ludicrous. A tank hitting a motorcycle almost automatically explodes. I don't have War! handy to get the exact numbers but it's something like 36 damage soaked by 30 dice against a condition track with 26 boxes. That same motorcycle, if it rams the tank, cannot hurt the tank at all and has a good chance of surviving (12 damage vs. 10 soak and 11 condition boxes).
3) If you crash you're out of the chase. I think a car should be able to barrel through a fruit stand or a pedestrian without either exploding because it's body determines its damage or being removed from the chase because it crashed.
Also, I wrote the random car chase generator for a Scion campaign and never got a chance to use it. Shadowrun's rules don't mesh well with it.
I haven't played them, so this last concern might not be an actual issue, but it looks like they take forever. You have to go through at least 3 combat turns to escape, and that assumes you started at long range. If the two drivers are anywhere near evenly matched they might as well just have a gunfight with a lot of penalties thrown on top because two similar die pools aren't going to allow for capture or evasion within any sort of reasonable time span.
1) You all but cannot escape a chase if there is more than a couple of cars on the opposite team. The -2 penalty per other car means that 3 police cars against one shadowrunner is an almost guaranteed capture unless that runner is built to be a driver. Add in 2 spotter drones and the guy's at a -8 penalty before factoring in anything else.
2) Crashes are ludicrous. A tank hitting a motorcycle almost automatically explodes. I don't have War! handy to get the exact numbers but it's something like 36 damage soaked by 30 dice against a condition track with 26 boxes. That same motorcycle, if it rams the tank, cannot hurt the tank at all and has a good chance of surviving (12 damage vs. 10 soak and 11 condition boxes).
3) If you crash you're out of the chase. I think a car should be able to barrel through a fruit stand or a pedestrian without either exploding because it's body determines its damage or being removed from the chase because it crashed.
Also, I wrote the random car chase generator for a Scion campaign and never got a chance to use it. Shadowrun's rules don't mesh well with it.
I haven't played them, so this last concern might not be an actual issue, but it looks like they take forever. You have to go through at least 3 combat turns to escape, and that assumes you started at long range. If the two drivers are anywhere near evenly matched they might as well just have a gunfight with a lot of penalties thrown on top because two similar die pools aren't going to allow for capture or evasion within any sort of reasonable time span.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 20 2011, 08:46 AM)
Three things mainly:
1) You all but cannot escape a chase if there is more than a couple of cars on the opposite team. The -2 penalty per other car means that 3 police cars against one shadowrunner is an almost guaranteed capture unless that runner is built to be a driver. Add in 2 spotter drones and the guy's at a -8 penalty before factoring in anything else.
1) You all but cannot escape a chase if there is more than a couple of cars on the opposite team. The -2 penalty per other car means that 3 police cars against one shadowrunner is an almost guaranteed capture unless that runner is built to be a driver. Add in 2 spotter drones and the guy's at a -8 penalty before factoring in anything else.
Which is as it should be.
QUOTE
2) Crashes are ludicrous. A tank hitting a motorcycle almost automatically explodes. I don't have War! handy to get the exact numbers but it's something like 36 damage soaked by 30 dice against a condition track with 26 boxes. That same motorcycle, if it rams the tank, cannot hurt the tank at all and has a good chance of surviving (12 damage vs. 10 soak and 11 condition boxes).
This I agree with, to an extent. Which is where Common Sense comes in. Have not had this problem though, as We do not Play Chicken pitting Tanks against Motorcycles.
QUOTE
3) If you crash you're out of the chase. I think a car should be able to barrel through a fruit stand or a pedestrian without either exploding because it's body determines its damage or being removed from the chase because it crashed.
If your vehicle takes little to no damage, you can just get back into the chase. Nothing stopping you from that. Remember, Damage that does not penetrate the vehicles armor is ignored outright, as they do not take stun. However, also remember that a Body will almost always total a car. Ask anyone who lives in the country and sees the results of a Car/Deer collission. Heaven forbid it be an Elk, Moose, or something bigger.
QUOTE
Also, I wrote the random car chase generator for a Scion campaign and never got a chance to use it. Shadowrun's rules don't mesh well with it.
I haven't played them, so this last concern might not be an actual issue, but it looks like they take forever. You have to go through at least 3 combat turns to escape, and that assumes you started at long range. If the two drivers are anywhere near evenly matched they might as well just have a gunfight with a lot of penalties thrown on top because two similar die pools aren't going to allow for capture or evasion within any sort of reasonable time span.
I haven't played them, so this last concern might not be an actual issue, but it looks like they take forever. You have to go through at least 3 combat turns to escape, and that assumes you started at long range. If the two drivers are anywhere near evenly matched they might as well just have a gunfight with a lot of penalties thrown on top because two similar die pools aren't going to allow for capture or evasion within any sort of reasonable time span.
Again, as it should be. Car Chases are not over in mere seconds, usually. It takes time as the drivers jockey for positions, and maneuver each other into situations that may, or may not, cause collateral damage. Usually, the side with the most vehicles in the chase wins (which is why it is often a lost cause to try and outrun the police). Only a superior driver can compensate for overwhelming opposition. This has been born out time and again at our table.
Where the Rules get a littel weird, is when there are more than 2 sides in the chase. Which should honestly be pretty rare.
Try them out. See what you think. I know that not everyone likes them.
I Will go through the rules you provided when I get home. Who knows, I may like them.
I'm not sure I like the capture/escape criteria, since there's no reason a car should be captured if the driver of the chase vehicle can't do anything to stop the lead, and there's no reason that the lead vehicle should vanish even if the chase vehicle is on its rear bumper the whole time.
I like the random leg generator, but you've got to be prepared to ditch a lot of the information if the chase ends up on the highway.
These are the rules I came up with for chases, in an attempt to include multiple vehicles, vehicle stunts, and real-time car-to-car combat. They're a little wordy, but mostly complete. I could be persuaded to change the crash damage, but I only really use it for critical glitches.
As for TJ's question of "why change the book rules," it's mostly because they're boring. There's not a good risk/reward mechanic for the driver choosing to do fancy tricks.
Also they take too long. A full minute of chase turn is enough for the vehicles to go something on the order of 10 city blocks, and that's if they're going well under the speed limit.
I like the random leg generator, but you've got to be prepared to ditch a lot of the information if the chase ends up on the highway.
These are the rules I came up with for chases, in an attempt to include multiple vehicles, vehicle stunts, and real-time car-to-car combat. They're a little wordy, but mostly complete. I could be persuaded to change the crash damage, but I only really use it for critical glitches.
[ Spoiler ]
As for TJ's question of "why change the book rules," it's mostly because they're boring. There's not a good risk/reward mechanic for the driver choosing to do fancy tricks.
Also they take too long. A full minute of chase turn is enough for the vehicles to go something on the order of 10 city blocks, and that's if they're going well under the speed limit.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 20 2011, 09:12 AM)
As for TJ's question of "why change the book rules," it's mostly because they're boring. There's not a good risk/reward mechanic for the driver choosing to do fancy tricks.
Also they take too long. A full minute of chase turn is enough for the vehicles to go something on the order of 10 city blocks, and that's if they're going well under the speed limit.
Also they take too long. A full minute of chase turn is enough for the vehicles to go something on the order of 10 city blocks, and that's if they're going well under the speed limit.
Interesting. I find the Rules to be highly dynamic and FAR from boring. Some of the best scenes in the game have been the chase scenes. As for stunts, They are what makes the scene interesting. I perform them all the time, in great detail for the narration. Most chases are a harrowing combination of turns, jumps, swerves to cutoff, crazy stunts, Stops and starts, and whatever else can be thrown into the mix. They are far from boring.
Of course, your table may be different.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 20 2011, 11:22 AM)
Interesting. I find the Rules to be highly dynamic and FAR from boring. Some of the best scenes in the game have been the chase scenes. As for stunts, They are what makes the scene interesting. I perform them all the time, in great detail for the narration. Most chases are a harrowing combination of turns, jumps, swerves to cutoff, crazy stunts, Stops and starts, and whatever else can be thrown into the mix. They are far from boring.
Of course, your table may be different.
Of course, your table may be different.
I prefer to let the players drive chases, and let them feel like the choices they make are significantly more important than a few +/- modifiers on the next chase combat roll.
Narration can, of course, save any boring mechanic, but as a mechanic the chase combat rules are rather abstract and pretty bland.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 20 2011, 09:42 AM)
I prefer to let the players drive chases, and let them feel like the choices they make are significantly more important than a few +/- modifiers on the next chase combat roll.
Narration can, of course, save any boring mechanic, but as a mechanic the chase combat rules are rather abstract and pretty bland.
Narration can, of course, save any boring mechanic, but as a mechanic the chase combat rules are rather abstract and pretty bland.
Perhaps I misspoke (or was less precise than I should have been). By narration, I mean that we drive the chases (as it sounds like you do). I tell the GM what cool thing I am doing on my drive action, Everyone else describes what they want to do in their action, The GM decribes the actions planned for the opposition, and then we roll the dice and resolve things. Does not take all that long, and we use the mechanics as presented in the books. The Mechanics are just there to resolve the rolls. Everything else is just roleplaying the encounter.
I have found, doing it this way, that the chase encounters are very dynamic and lively, while things get totally crazy (and generally not in a Pink Mohawk kind of way, though that is cool too), as most car chases should be in Shadowrun.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 20 2011, 10:04 AM)
If your vehicle takes little to no damage, you can just get back into the chase. Nothing stopping you from that. Remember, Damage that does not penetrate the vehicles armor is ignored outright, as they do not take stun. However, also remember that a Body will almost always total a car. Ask anyone who lives in the country and sees the results of a Car/Deer collission. Heaven forbid it be an Elk, Moose, or something bigger.
That's not what the chase rules say, so I have to assume you're using your own house rules. The chase rules say "if you crash, you're out of the chase." Nothing about taking damage as part of the crash and then determining if you can continue, just a simple "fail a crash test and you're done" mechanic.
But like you say, you should be able to hit some things and keep going (people are much less damaging than the car or deer you mention, and the most likely thing to hit in an urban chase). The base rules don't allow that. Either your crash takes you out of the fight instantly or your vehicle's body determines the damage it takes so the bigger you are the harder you're hit, regardless of the size of your target. I rewrote that section completely so that I don't have to rely on my spur-of-the-moment "common sense." It frequently fails me.
QUOTE
Again, as it should be. Car Chases are not over in mere seconds, usually. It takes time as the drivers jockey for positions, and maneuver each other into situations that may, or may not, cause collateral damage. Usually, the side with the most vehicles in the chase wins (which is why it is often a lost cause to try and outrun the police). Only a superior driver can compensate for overwhelming opposition. This has been born out time and again at our table.
Cool, I'm more worried about playability than "as it should be"s. And I agree that car chases aren't over in seconds. What I disagree with is the idea that they can't ever be over if both sides are similarly matched (at least without bad luck on one side or the other). Our group doesn't have a driver with a 15 dice pool, so if they want a car chase (and at least one of them does) it's either got to be completely unrealistic in the police response or I've got to change the rules. I opted for the latter.
QUOTE
Try them out. See what you think. I know that not everyone likes them.
No thanks. Unless the rest of my group votes to use them. They don't fit my idea of a car chase and everything I've heard about them (except from you) says they're horrible and can easily result in 15 second TPKs. I'd rather make my own.
QUOTE
I Will go through the rules you provided when I get home. Who knows, I may like them.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 20 2011, 10:12 AM)
I like the random leg generator, but you've got to be prepared to ditch a lot of the information if the chase ends up on the highway.
The whole point of the generator is that you don't always determine where your car chase goes. It has the possibility for highways on there, but you're unlikely to stay on one for long. There is the redo leg button, which will probably see a lot of use.
QUOTE
These are the rules I came up with for chases, in an attempt to include multiple vehicles, vehicle stunts, and real-time car-to-car combat. They're a little wordy, but mostly complete. I could be persuaded to change the crash damage, but I only really use it for critical glitches.
I saw those when doing my initial research (I was hoping someone would already have house rules I could completely cut and paste and be happy with). I may swipe the distances stuff, as it definitely makes more sense than just an extended opposed roll.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 20 2011, 12:19 PM)
Perhaps I misspoke (or was less precise than I should have been). By narration, I mean that we drive the chases (as it sounds like you do). I tell the GM what cool thing I am doing on my drive action, Everyone else describes what they want to do in their action, The GM decribes the actions planned for the opposition, and then we roll the dice and resolve things. Does not take all that long, and we use the mechanics as presented in the books. The Mechanics are just there to resolve the rolls. Everything else is just roleplaying the encounter.
I have found, doing it this way, that the chase encounters are very dynamic and lively, while things get totally crazy (and generally not in a Pink Mohawk kind of way, though that is cool too), as most car chases should be in Shadowrun.
I have found, doing it this way, that the chase encounters are very dynamic and lively, while things get totally crazy (and generally not in a Pink Mohawk kind of way, though that is cool too), as most car chases should be in Shadowrun.
Oh, okay, you're talking about it from a player's perspective.
The last time (and first time) I ran a chase using the rules in the book, I had a "what the hell am I reading?" moment and ditched the rules in favor of a more free-form resolution. The team was getting chased by a Lone Star interceptor (they had just wrecked a Lone Star van transporting a prisoner out of a KE facility, to rescue the prisoner), in the middle of the day, on the freeway in the middle of Seattle.
After the first chase turn, I realized that, by the book, a minute had passed and they were probably 1 or 2 more minutes away from the cavalry arriving (main road, shots exchanged, broad daylight), which was not going to work out for them, so I sped up the combat turns to give them a few more actions. Fortunately the weapons expert in the group managed to put some ExEx from his Ares Alpha through the radiator of the Lone Star vehicle on the next turn (completely wrecking it), and the team's driver managed to make it off the main roads before the helicopters started showing up.
I don't have a problem with abstract rules for chases -- James' rules are abstract as hell, as are mine -- I just don't like the scale of the core rulebook. By the time a minute has passed, a tense sequence of driving down a cluttered alley is probably less than the entire turn. A minute is enough time to beat the train at the crossing, and plow through the front of the shopping mall and all the way down to the food court.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 20 2011, 10:50 AM)
Oh, okay, you're talking about it from a player's perspective.
The last time (and first time) I ran a chase using the rules in the book, I had a "what the hell am I reading?" moment and ditched the rules in favor of a more free-form resolution. The team was getting chased by a Lone Star interceptor (they had just wrecked a Lone Star van transporting a prisoner out of a KE facility, to rescue the prisoner), in the middle of the day, on the freeway in the middle of Seattle.
After the first chase turn, I realized that, by the book, a minute had passed and they were probably 1 or 2 more minutes away from the cavalry arriving (main road, shots exchanged, broad daylight), which was not going to work out for them, so I sped up the combat turns to give them a few more actions. Fortunately the weapons expert in the group managed to put some ExEx from his Ares Alpha through the radiator of the Lone Star vehicle on the next turn (completely wrecking it), and the team's driver managed to make it off the main roads before the helicopters started showing up.
I don't have a problem with abstract rules for chases -- James' rules are abstract as hell, as are mine -- I just don't like the scale of the core rulebook. By the time a minute has passed, a tense sequence of driving down a cluttered alley is probably less than the entire turn. A minute is enough time to beat the train at the crossing, and plow through the front of the shopping mall and all the way down to the food court.
The last time (and first time) I ran a chase using the rules in the book, I had a "what the hell am I reading?" moment and ditched the rules in favor of a more free-form resolution. The team was getting chased by a Lone Star interceptor (they had just wrecked a Lone Star van transporting a prisoner out of a KE facility, to rescue the prisoner), in the middle of the day, on the freeway in the middle of Seattle.
After the first chase turn, I realized that, by the book, a minute had passed and they were probably 1 or 2 more minutes away from the cavalry arriving (main road, shots exchanged, broad daylight), which was not going to work out for them, so I sped up the combat turns to give them a few more actions. Fortunately the weapons expert in the group managed to put some ExEx from his Ares Alpha through the radiator of the Lone Star vehicle on the next turn (completely wrecking it), and the team's driver managed to make it off the main roads before the helicopters started showing up.
I don't have a problem with abstract rules for chases -- James' rules are abstract as hell, as are mine -- I just don't like the scale of the core rulebook. By the time a minute has passed, a tense sequence of driving down a cluttered alley is probably less than the entire turn. A minute is enough time to beat the train at the crossing, and plow through the front of the shopping mall and all the way down to the food court.
Indeed....
And yes, it is an abstraction. It takes as long as it needs to take. But a minute is a good ballpark figure if you need a hard time increment.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 20 2011, 12:09 PM)
Indeed....
And yes, it is an abstraction. It takes as long as it needs to take. But a minute is a good ballpark figure if you need a hard time increment.
And yes, it is an abstraction. It takes as long as it needs to take. But a minute is a good ballpark figure if you need a hard time increment.
With the timing and collision talk so far I get the feeling you're not using as much of the RAW as your first post suggested.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 20 2011, 10:40 AM)
With the timing and collision talk so far I get the feeling you're not using as much of the RAW as your first post suggested.
We are, I am just saying that your timing can be as fluid as you like it to be.
As for the Collision Rules. We do not do collissions/ramming very often. They have a tendancy to kill you or your target, which is generally not the point. There are other ways of stopping a vehicle which are a lot more productive.
I uploaded a new version, swiping a lot of Epicedion's rules for ranges and using his (much simpler) speed rules.
Note: my writing this post went on a little longer than I expected.
I'm curious about the collision rules, and wondering how to make that Mass concept fit in with stats we already have in SR.
Based on the random objects on your chase leg generator, I see that, generally:
Person = Mass 0
Motorcycle = Mass 1
Car = Mass 2
Ambulance = Mass 3
Box Truck = Mass 4
Tree = Mass 5
Tractor-Trailer = Mass 6
And so on.
Based off that, I'm thinking that as a generic rule for individual vehicles, the DV could Body x 0.5 (round up), plus (Current Speed / 10) (also round up).
This would give you some base DVs from the SR4a --
Motorcycles: 2 (scooter), 4, 3, 3
Cars: 5, 5, 4, 5, 6, 7
Utility Van: 8
Yacht: 9
Cargo Helicopter: 11
These seem low, but bear with me.
This means an average car (DV 5) doesn't have enough punch to harm another average car (Armor 6), but only at speeds of <11 m/turn, which is about 8 mph. After that, it's doing 7 DV, vs (Body 10 , Armor 6). Buying a conservative 4 hits for 16 dice gets you 3 damage to the collision target.
At normal non-highway speeds of 60 m/turn (~45 mph), you're looking at at DV of 11, which will do about 7 damage to an average car.
At highway speeds of 94m/turn (~70mph), you see the DV go up to 15, which will do about 11 damage to an average car, which almost fills its condition monitor.
Now while that doesn't seem like much, but remember that average cars in Shadowrun have 6 armor, which is enough to stop a bullet. That and I just watched a video of a Smart Car plow into a concrete barrier at 70mph, and while it was totally wrecked and undriveable, it wasn't a pancake and the damage looked fairly survivable.
Furthermore, the car at 45mph will ride the borderline of killing an average human. Anything faster and the human is toast. This seems about right.
--
Comparatively, your Tractor-Trailer is doing DV 24 at 1m/turn, so it's going to completely obliterate any target at any speed. I would find a much more reasonable base DV to be Mass +3.
--
As for solid objects, I would take DV = Structure/2 for just about any normal barrier. The tree (Structure 5, for DV 3) seems a little low, so I'd bump it up to be the functional equivalent of their light post (Structure 7 for DV 4).
The mechanic would be simple. Object 1 does (Body(or Structure)/2 + Speed/10) DV to Object 2. Object 2 does (Body(or Structure)/2 + Speed/10) to Object 1.
Speed should be the current speed of the faster object, just to keep it simple. The common sense approach to vehicle collisions is somewhat wrong -- two vehicles striking each other head on do not actually take the same damage as if one vehicle with their combined speeds struck a solid, immobile object, due to the way inelastic collisions work.
--
Passengers should take damage equal to the damage that is applied to the vehicle after it rolls resistance. So if a car takes an 11 DV hit, and reduces that to 7, the passengers inside the vehicle should take 7P, resisted with Body + half Impact.
Since SR4's damage never stops scaling up (like it did at Deadly wounds in SR3), I think it's a little unfair to make the passengers resist the same damage as the vehicle. Otherwise wrecks that people have a decent chance of walking away from with minor to moderate injuries will all inevitably be deadly. A 60mph crash probably shouldn't always deal the same damage as getting shot in the head with a sniper rifle.
I'm curious about the collision rules, and wondering how to make that Mass concept fit in with stats we already have in SR.
Based on the random objects on your chase leg generator, I see that, generally:
Person = Mass 0
Motorcycle = Mass 1
Car = Mass 2
Ambulance = Mass 3
Box Truck = Mass 4
Tree = Mass 5
Tractor-Trailer = Mass 6
And so on.
Based off that, I'm thinking that as a generic rule for individual vehicles, the DV could Body x 0.5 (round up), plus (Current Speed / 10) (also round up).
This would give you some base DVs from the SR4a --
Motorcycles: 2 (scooter), 4, 3, 3
Cars: 5, 5, 4, 5, 6, 7
Utility Van: 8
Yacht: 9
Cargo Helicopter: 11
These seem low, but bear with me.
This means an average car (DV 5) doesn't have enough punch to harm another average car (Armor 6), but only at speeds of <11 m/turn, which is about 8 mph. After that, it's doing 7 DV, vs (Body 10 , Armor 6). Buying a conservative 4 hits for 16 dice gets you 3 damage to the collision target.
At normal non-highway speeds of 60 m/turn (~45 mph), you're looking at at DV of 11, which will do about 7 damage to an average car.
At highway speeds of 94m/turn (~70mph), you see the DV go up to 15, which will do about 11 damage to an average car, which almost fills its condition monitor.
Now while that doesn't seem like much, but remember that average cars in Shadowrun have 6 armor, which is enough to stop a bullet. That and I just watched a video of a Smart Car plow into a concrete barrier at 70mph, and while it was totally wrecked and undriveable, it wasn't a pancake and the damage looked fairly survivable.
Furthermore, the car at 45mph will ride the borderline of killing an average human. Anything faster and the human is toast. This seems about right.
--
Comparatively, your Tractor-Trailer is doing DV 24 at 1m/turn, so it's going to completely obliterate any target at any speed. I would find a much more reasonable base DV to be Mass +3.
--
As for solid objects, I would take DV = Structure/2 for just about any normal barrier. The tree (Structure 5, for DV 3) seems a little low, so I'd bump it up to be the functional equivalent of their light post (Structure 7 for DV 4).
The mechanic would be simple. Object 1 does (Body(or Structure)/2 + Speed/10) DV to Object 2. Object 2 does (Body(or Structure)/2 + Speed/10) to Object 1.
Speed should be the current speed of the faster object, just to keep it simple. The common sense approach to vehicle collisions is somewhat wrong -- two vehicles striking each other head on do not actually take the same damage as if one vehicle with their combined speeds struck a solid, immobile object, due to the way inelastic collisions work.
--
Passengers should take damage equal to the damage that is applied to the vehicle after it rolls resistance. So if a car takes an 11 DV hit, and reduces that to 7, the passengers inside the vehicle should take 7P, resisted with Body + half Impact.
Since SR4's damage never stops scaling up (like it did at Deadly wounds in SR3), I think it's a little unfair to make the passengers resist the same damage as the vehicle. Otherwise wrecks that people have a decent chance of walking away from with minor to moderate injuries will all inevitably be deadly. A 60mph crash probably shouldn't always deal the same damage as getting shot in the head with a sniper rifle.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 22 2011, 12:30 AM)
Note: my writing this post went on a little longer than I expected.
Np, I do the same thing.
QUOTE
I'm curious about the collision rules, and wondering how to make that Mass concept fit in with stats we already have in SR.
I like it, but I don't want to have to determine the Body ratings. Using the Mass number makes it less realistic but a whole lot faster. The numbers could definitely use some tweaking though. I cracked open Excel and ran some different formulas (cuz I'm a dork like that). What do you think of these numbers:
Formula: (Mass + 3) + (Speed/25) * 2)
Yeah, it looks wonky, but it's easy to toss into a form on my GM screen and calculate with the click of a button. A few snapshots of the results:
A car hitting a person at speed 25 or lower (~20mph) is going to take no damage thanks to the 6 armor. If they hit at 75 (~60mph) they are going to get damaged by the 9 DV, but it's survivable and the car will drive away. Hit at 150 (~115 mph) and the DV is 15. The car is still likely to drive away, and the person will walk away too.
That same car hitting an ambulance at speed 25 is going to be in a full-on fender bender but is ok. At 75 the DV is 12, so the car drives away but is in bad shape. at 150 the DV 18 collision makes the car toast.
Moving tot he extreme end of the scale we have the tractor trailer. Hit it at 25 and you're soaking 11. The car is hurt but drivable. Much faster than that and you're in big trouble.
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As for solid objects, I would take DV = Structure/2 for just about any normal barrier. The tree (Structure 5, for DV 3) seems a little low, so I'd bump it up to be the functional equivalent of their light post (Structure 7 for DV 4).
I like it, but it would take a lot of editing to the DB or a lot of in-game look ups. I'd like to have two chase generator options eventually but that would mean rewriting the descriptions and difficulties for every obstacle.
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Speed should be the current speed of the faster object, just to keep it simple. The common sense approach to vehicle collisions is somewhat wrong -- two vehicles striking each other head on do not actually take the same damage as if one vehicle with their combined speeds struck a solid, immobile object, due to the way inelastic collisions work.
Definitely. That's how it's set up already.
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Passengers should take damage equal to the damage that is applied to the vehicle after it rolls resistance. So if a car takes an 11 DV hit, and reduces that to 7, the passengers inside the vehicle should take 7P, resisted with Body + half Impact.
Since SR4's damage never stops scaling up (like it did at Deadly wounds in SR3), I think it's a little unfair to make the passengers resist the same damage as the vehicle. Otherwise wrecks that people have a decent chance of walking away from with minor to moderate injuries will all inevitably be deadly. A 60mph crash probably shouldn't always deal the same damage as getting shot in the head with a sniper rifle.
Since SR4's damage never stops scaling up (like it did at Deadly wounds in SR3), I think it's a little unfair to make the passengers resist the same damage as the vehicle. Otherwise wrecks that people have a decent chance of walking away from with minor to moderate injuries will all inevitably be deadly. A 60mph crash probably shouldn't always deal the same damage as getting shot in the head with a sniper rifle.
It's worded poorly, but that's how I intended it to work. Riding in a tank is safer than riding in a Hyundai.
I am all for an abstracted, lengthened interval for Chase Combat.
1 minute does seem a bit slow, though.
However, if you move things into combat turns (notoriously too fast, in my experience), a well set up rigger with a car full of wired up runners can lay pretty serious waste to an entire chase flotilla in short order. Or vice versa. Basically, a shortened interval with lots of actions resolved in series leads to a pretty big smear in short order.
I do not like the way that plays out in game.
Other troubles when messing around with interval come with the whole Meters Per Turn game mechanic. MPT is a real bear, and beg for intervals that are neatly divisible by 3. This leaves you with the 3 second combat turn, a 30 second or 60 second interval as neatly wrapped packages.
After running a few chase scenes, I too have been wondering about how I'd mess with and improve on chase combat some. My initial reaction was to move to a 30 second interval for the turn, with each phase being approximately 10 seconds for a wired up participant. Further, this allows for a six or so turn long chase to occur within a two to three minute response window, making it less of a problem for me as a GM. The longer the Law has to work on stopping you, and the harder you resist, the more power they will leverage your way. Bad news in chases. Especially when you have a van-cum-APC that shrugs off small arms fire like gnats. Just begs for an ATGM, don't it?
1 minute does seem a bit slow, though.
However, if you move things into combat turns (notoriously too fast, in my experience), a well set up rigger with a car full of wired up runners can lay pretty serious waste to an entire chase flotilla in short order. Or vice versa. Basically, a shortened interval with lots of actions resolved in series leads to a pretty big smear in short order.
I do not like the way that plays out in game.
Other troubles when messing around with interval come with the whole Meters Per Turn game mechanic. MPT is a real bear, and beg for intervals that are neatly divisible by 3. This leaves you with the 3 second combat turn, a 30 second or 60 second interval as neatly wrapped packages.
After running a few chase scenes, I too have been wondering about how I'd mess with and improve on chase combat some. My initial reaction was to move to a 30 second interval for the turn, with each phase being approximately 10 seconds for a wired up participant. Further, this allows for a six or so turn long chase to occur within a two to three minute response window, making it less of a problem for me as a GM. The longer the Law has to work on stopping you, and the harder you resist, the more power they will leverage your way. Bad news in chases. Especially when you have a van-cum-APC that shrugs off small arms fire like gnats. Just begs for an ATGM, don't it?
double post.
I'd love to say that each leg lasts about 30 seconds, but I think I'd end up with the people who have 3 or 4 passes wondering why they can't take 30-40 actions
9and me having no good answer). 3 seconds makes the legs way too short to be realistic as far as driving goes, but we use modified response times from the 3E Seattle source book (which are incredibly fast) so the gunfire and police response still fits fairly well.
9and me having no good answer). 3 seconds makes the legs way too short to be realistic as far as driving goes, but we use modified response times from the 3E Seattle source book (which are incredibly fast) so the gunfire and police response still fits fairly well.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 22 2011, 01:22 PM)
I like it, but I don't want to have to determine the Body ratings. Using the Mass number makes it less realistic but a whole lot faster. The numbers could definitely use some tweaking though. I cracked open Excel and ran some different formulas (cuz I'm a dork like that). What do you think of these numbers:
Formula: (Mass + 3) + (Speed/25) * 2)
Yeah, it looks wonky, but it's easy to toss into a form on my GM screen and calculate with the click of a button. A few snapshots of the results:
A car hitting a person at speed 25 or lower (~20mph) is going to take no damage thanks to the 6 armor. If they hit at 75 (~60mph) they are going to get damaged by the 9 DV, but it's survivable and the car will drive away. Hit at 150 (~115 mph) and the DV is 15. The car is still likely to drive away, and the person will walk away too.
That same car hitting an ambulance at speed 25 is going to be in a full-on fender bender but is ok. At 75 the DV is 12, so the car drives away but is in bad shape. at 150 the DV 18 collision makes the car toast.
Moving tot he extreme end of the scale we have the tractor trailer. Hit it at 25 and you're soaking 11. The car is hurt but drivable. Much faster than that and you're in big trouble.
Formula: (Mass + 3) + (Speed/25) * 2)
Yeah, it looks wonky, but it's easy to toss into a form on my GM screen and calculate with the click of a button. A few snapshots of the results:
A car hitting a person at speed 25 or lower (~20mph) is going to take no damage thanks to the 6 armor. If they hit at 75 (~60mph) they are going to get damaged by the 9 DV, but it's survivable and the car will drive away. Hit at 150 (~115 mph) and the DV is 15. The car is still likely to drive away, and the person will walk away too.
That same car hitting an ambulance at speed 25 is going to be in a full-on fender bender but is ok. At 75 the DV is 12, so the car drives away but is in bad shape. at 150 the DV 18 collision makes the car toast.
Moving tot he extreme end of the scale we have the tractor trailer. Hit it at 25 and you're soaking 11. The car is hurt but drivable. Much faster than that and you're in big trouble.
My point in adapting Body is to make it work if you don't have the Mass numbers, or have no idea how to classify something but have a handy Body rating.
As for your last example:
An average human (even a pretty good runner) is not likely to walk away from a car doing 150 m/turn under your system. They'll take 17P and probably die on the spot. With something like 6 body and 6 Impact armor, they might bring that down to 13 or 14, which is within overflow but that's not walking away.
The average car is going to take 15P, and soak about 5. That car only has 13 boxes, so it's going to be pretty badly mangled by this collision.
By the damage-to-passengers rule, this means that everyone inside is going to take 10P, which seems high, since the car is unlikely to decelerate significantly from the impact (though it may from the potential crash afterwards). I'd want to mitigate that somehow, probably by making this a rule:
Passengers in a vehicle only have to resist leftover damage from the collision if the other vehicle or object has greater than half the Mass (or Body) of their own vehicle.
This would take care of Person vs Car, Motorcycle vs Car, or Bicycle vs Tractor-Trailer collisions that might damage or even wreck a vehicle, but shouldn't be sniper shots to the head to the passengers.
Basically, it's my opinion that there are certain scale collisions that shouldn't harm the passengers of a vehicle outright, but may still lead to a serious crash that would endanger them. While small objects can cause significant operational damage, it takes something really massive relative to the vehicle to do something to significantly harm the passengers -- basically the impact has to at least partially crush the passenger compartment.
From what I've seen of various accidents, I would set the "hurt passengers" bar at greater than 1/2 Mass. Following this, a motorcycle wouldn't be a direct threat to the passengers, but a moose would.
This would also prevent a double-whammy collision that knocks out or kills passengers, which then leads to a crash which also does damage.
I'm encouraged to allow full Impact armor on collision damage, both for passengers and collision targets. Killing a bunch of characters in a car chase is a pretty big downer.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 22 2011, 06:27 PM)
My point in adapting Body is to make it work if you don't have the Mass numbers, or have no idea how to classify something but have a handy Body rating.
I wrote the generator. I'll always have the mass number.
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As for your last example:
An average human (even a pretty good runner) is not likely to walk away from a car doing 150 m/turn under your system. They'll take 17P and probably die on the spot. With something like 6 body and 6 Impact armor, they might bring that down to 13 or 14, which is within overflow but that's not walking away.
The average car is going to take 15P, and soak about 5. That car only has 13 boxes, so it's going to be pretty badly mangled by this collision.
By the damage-to-passengers rule, this means that everyone inside is going to take 10P, which seems high, since the car is unlikely to decelerate significantly from the impact (though it may from the potential crash afterwards). I'd want to mitigate that somehow, probably by making this a rule:
An average human (even a pretty good runner) is not likely to walk away from a car doing 150 m/turn under your system. They'll take 17P and probably die on the spot. With something like 6 body and 6 Impact armor, they might bring that down to 13 or 14, which is within overflow but that's not walking away.
The average car is going to take 15P, and soak about 5. That car only has 13 boxes, so it's going to be pretty badly mangled by this collision.
By the damage-to-passengers rule, this means that everyone inside is going to take 10P, which seems high, since the car is unlikely to decelerate significantly from the impact (though it may from the potential crash afterwards). I'd want to mitigate that somehow, probably by making this a rule:
Per Arsenal, crashes do no damage if the person is strapped down and the air bags are functional. If you hit something large at 110mph and aren't buckled in it seems likely to me that you're going to die. But the person is still unlikely to die: Body 3 + Armor 6 means they'll soak 3 of it and still be conscious.
Also, the car we keep using as an example can't even go 150mpt. The standard civilian car that can go that fast (Mercury Comet) has to push past their safe speed to do it, but has more soak dice. If you're pushing your car past the safe speed, it should probably be dangerous.
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Passengers in a vehicle only have to resist leftover damage from the collision if the other vehicle or object has greater than half the Mass (or Body) of their own vehicle.
That works, but I wonder how often it'll come up. If the thing you hit has less than half your mass / body, their collision DV is going to be low and your soak high, unles you're going at high speed. If you're doing that and get in a crash, you should probably get some bumps and bruises.
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Basically, it's my opinion that there are certain scale collisions that shouldn't harm the passengers of a vehicle outright, but may still lead to a serious crash that would endanger them. While small objects can cause significant operational damage, it takes something really massive relative to the vehicle to do something to significantly harm the passengers -- basically the impact has to at least partially crush the passenger compartment.
I disagree. If you've bypassed your car's safety features and get in a high speed collision, you should be in danger. If it required a collapse of the passenger compartment to hurt someone they wouldn't have invented seat belts or air bags.
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I'm encouraged to allow full Impact armor on collision damage, both for passengers and collision targets. Killing a bunch of characters in a car chase is a pretty big downer.
I guess I'm just not seeing the likelihood of their death like you are.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 22 2011, 11:48 PM)
I wrote the generator. I'll always have the mass number.
Not every collision will happen in a chase!
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Per Arsenal, crashes do no damage if the person is strapped down and the air bags are functional. If you hit something large at 110mph and aren't buckled in it seems likely to me that you're going to die. But the person is still unlikely to die: Body 3 + Armor 6 means they'll soak 3 of it and still be conscious.
Ah, I didn't know that part. Rules spread across multiple books and whatnot.
It's not necessarily dying, but from my experience with SR3 I still view 6 or 7 physical damage as a pretty major injury, as opposed to something that will heal up cleanly in a couple days. I know that doesn't necessarily jive with the system anymore.
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That works, but I wonder how often it'll come up. If the thing you hit has less than half your mass / body, their collision DV is going to be low and your soak high, unles you're going at high speed. If you're doing that and get in a crash, you should probably get some bumps and bruises.
I would think somewhat often. There are plenty of Mass 1 collisions in your generator. With cars at Mass 2, it would come up.
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I disagree. If you've bypassed your car's safety features and get in a high speed collision, you should be in danger. If it required a collapse of the passenger compartment to hurt someone they wouldn't have invented seat belts or air bags.
Those are designed to keep your from slamming into things. Assuming these things work slightly better (or at least as well) in the future, the only other major structural damage (Physical damage) the passengers would take would be from the deformity of the passenger compartment itself.
If everyone intentionally disregards basic safety features, sure, let them find out what it's like to fly through a windshield.
Maybe a better way of modeling that would be to have those half-or-less Mass collisions cause only Stun damage to the passengers of the vehicle with the larger Mass. Those sorts of collisions can still cause high amounts of damage (since there's only a few DV difference between most vehicles), and so particularly nasty high-speed collisions would have a tendency to overflow into the Physical track.
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I guess I'm just not seeing the likelihood of their death like you are.
Players always find a way to surprise you with how much injury they can cause to themselves. And if they're in a chase scene, it's going to end one of two ways: catching/evading the target/pursuer, or Thirty-six Car Pileup.
If they can, they'll somehow manage to find that one Mass 8 object and slam into it at about 200 mpt.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 23 2011, 09:11 AM)
Not every collision will happen in a chase!
True. Thinking about Knight Errant mages joining the fray made me think about Physical Barrier, so I do need something to model structures as Mass. But I think a straight structural rating is too much, since it means hitting drywall is as dangerous as hitting an ambulance. Mass = Structure / 2 (round down) would mean:
- Hitting glass does nothing (but don't try it in a convertible!)
- A door is like hitting a motorcycle.
- Hitting a tree is like hitting a car, though larger trees might have more structure rating and be worse.
- A typical building (brick, plastcrete) is like a semi.
- It just gets worse from there.
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Players always find a way to surprise you with how much injury they can cause to themselves. And if they're in a chase scene, it's going to end one of two ways: catching/evading the target/pursuer, or Thirty-six Car Pileup.
If they can, they'll somehow manage to find that one Mass 8 object and slam into it at about 200 mpt.
If they can, they'll somehow manage to find that one Mass 8 object and slam into it at about 200 mpt.
If they do that, it was their choice and they can burn the edge to survive their seemingly suicidal maneuver. It might be a good, albeit karma-intensive, way to escape the fuzz.
We got our first chance to use the house rules this last weekend. Well, two chances really.
In the first chase it was the PCs trying to catch an armored car they were robbing. They ended the chase by shooting the driver dead. I hadn't considered the idea of crashes due to that so we went with "the vehicle critical glitches on the next leg and then stops. It ended up plowing through a marathon and grinding to a halt over the corpses of one unlucky security guard and a runner.
In the second chase it was the team trying to get away from a rigger on cameras, a spotter drone, an astral mage, and a patrol car. They shot the drone down, stun bolted the mage to oblivion, and escaped both the camera rigger and patrol car. The rigger was especially hard to escape, because he didn't have to worry about any of the obstacles and couldn't be shot. The driver ended up using one of his actions to find a route that was unlikely to have a lot of cameras. I gave him a perception check threshold 2 and each success past that lowered the rigger's pool by one. If they hadn't shaken off the patrol car at the same time then the rigger would have been told where to go and caught back up on the next turn.
All-in-all I'm happy with them. I may try to jigger the collision formula a bit more, and might get rid of the -1 difficulty I added to convert the numbers from Scion to Shadowrun. I didn't realize how easy it was to get extra dice (AR, Hot Sim, TAC-Net, and any Reaction boosts).
In the first chase it was the PCs trying to catch an armored car they were robbing. They ended the chase by shooting the driver dead. I hadn't considered the idea of crashes due to that so we went with "the vehicle critical glitches on the next leg and then stops. It ended up plowing through a marathon and grinding to a halt over the corpses of one unlucky security guard and a runner.
In the second chase it was the team trying to get away from a rigger on cameras, a spotter drone, an astral mage, and a patrol car. They shot the drone down, stun bolted the mage to oblivion, and escaped both the camera rigger and patrol car. The rigger was especially hard to escape, because he didn't have to worry about any of the obstacles and couldn't be shot. The driver ended up using one of his actions to find a route that was unlikely to have a lot of cameras. I gave him a perception check threshold 2 and each success past that lowered the rigger's pool by one. If they hadn't shaken off the patrol car at the same time then the rigger would have been told where to go and caught back up on the next turn.
All-in-all I'm happy with them. I may try to jigger the collision formula a bit more, and might get rid of the -1 difficulty I added to convert the numbers from Scion to Shadowrun. I didn't realize how easy it was to get extra dice (AR, Hot Sim, TAC-Net, and any Reaction boosts).
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