Machiavelli
May 4 2011, 09:14 AM
I don´t know if it´s mentioned somewhere, but would an AI fit in the data-storage of a common commlink? If this commlink is destroyed, is the AI also "dead"?
Fortinbras
May 4 2011, 09:47 AM
As an AI is a persona, I suppose it can exist in any node. They normally don't like to be away from their home node, however, so it is probably rare that they are simply in one node at a time.
If they are, say if the commlink is their home node, then destroying it will shut down that node and unless the AI has somewhere to go that should be the end of it, but if the AI can find a way out of the node, if it's jammed or in a static zone and the Signal plus the AI's ECCM can't find it's way around it, then I suppose.
A few months ago, in my Emergence campaign, my players "trapped" an AI in one of the PCs commlinks and tried to sell it to Shiawase. When they gave it to them, the Shiawase people said all they found was an empty commlink.
The players were convinced the Shiawase people screwed them over, but there were about a thousand ways for the AI to get out of there.
I think this is much the same logic as in if a metahuman were inside a house and the house were destroyed. Would the metahuman be destroyed? In all likelihood, but I'd check for a body if I were you.
Epicedion
May 4 2011, 03:31 PM
An AI has a "home node," which is where it stores its core code. It's only vulnerable to destruction at that home node. An AI isn't really a free-floating persona, so you can't trap it in a device unless you convince it to move its home node there, which takes quite awhile.
longbowrocks
May 4 2011, 03:42 PM
I'm AFB at the moment, but there are three ways to "kill" a PC AI.
- Reduce one of its attributes to 0.
- Destroy it in its home node while it's realigning.
- (not positive, but pretty sure about this one)Destroy a node it is currently on. AIs can move to a new node as a complex action, so the presence of their source is irrelevant.
Then again, I guess we aren't talking about PC AIs.
CanRay
May 4 2011, 05:06 PM
Find home node. Cut off home node before AI can transfer out. Fill home node with bullets. Add more bullets. Bake with Thermite until crispy or melted through the ground.
Dead AI.
Serves seven.
longbowrocks
May 4 2011, 05:20 PM
Home node is made of bullets. Symbiotically accumulates more bullets. Healthy AI. Great megalomaniacal pet.
CanRay
May 4 2011, 05:25 PM
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 4 2011, 12:20 PM)

Home node is made of bullets. Symbiotically accumulates more bullets. Healthy AI. Great megalomaniacal pet.

"Sir, we found the Feral AI." "Good." "It's made up of the RFID tags for our Munitions." "... ... ... Which munitions?" "Um... All of them, Sir." "Well, our base will be low..." "No, Sir.
ALL of them. Including the Nukes." "Oh... Bugger."
longbowrocks
May 4 2011, 05:30 PM
Lol. Now I want to see if I can do that. Maybe ready an action to transfer to the last bullet in someone else's clip every IP? I just need to figure out how to turn an RFID tag into a proper node.
Yerameyahu
May 4 2011, 06:05 PM
Don't you dare say 'clustering'.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 4 2011, 06:10 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 4 2011, 12:05 PM)

Don't you dare say 'clustering'.
Heh... Why Not?

It is a viable option, if a bit of a subpar one.
longbowrocks
May 4 2011, 06:33 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 4 2011, 11:05 AM)

Don't you dare say 'clustering'.
Ah, that was the word I was looking for!

[ Spoiler ]
"dare"
Yerameyahu
May 4 2011, 06:41 PM
I don't believe it to be an option at all by RAW, viable or not. Even if it were, the tags don't have the range to communicate with each other.
CanRay
May 4 2011, 06:42 PM
It gets worse if the AI is running RAID ∞.
Dez384
May 4 2011, 06:44 PM
I think the cluster of bullets would need at least one standard node device in it since RFID tags are peripheral nodes which can't run programs they weren't built to run.
CanRay
May 4 2011, 06:49 PM
QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 4 2011, 01:44 PM)

I think the cluster of bullets would need at least one standard node device in it since RFID tags are peripheral nodes which can't run programs they weren't built to run.
Why do you think I included mention of the Nuke?
Halflife
May 4 2011, 06:53 PM
A strange game, the only winning move is to invest my consciousness in all of the weapons and then use them to play as both sides at once
CanRay
May 4 2011, 06:55 PM
QUOTE (Halflife @ May 4 2011, 01:53 PM)

A strange game, the only winning move is to invest my consciousness in all of the weapons and then use them to play as both sides at once
Great, the AI just became Ares, selling weapons and ammo to both sides of a conflict they initiated.
Halflife
May 4 2011, 07:06 PM
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 4 2011, 02:55 PM)

Great, the AI just became Ares, selling weapons and ammo to both sides of a conflict they initiated.

Sounds like a great way to give the investors that ROI. Who needs scheming great dragons when you can have sentient conflicts.
CanRay
May 4 2011, 07:10 PM
"SIR! Desert Wars just kicked off!" "But we're in the middle of the training season, it shouldn't be..." "All that's out there are the drones, Sir!" "FILM IT! FILM IT FILM IT FILM IT! Break through that... What is currently on? Presidential Speech? Worthless, break in and broadcast this! Ratings, here we come!"
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 4 2011, 07:46 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 4 2011, 11:41 AM)

I don't believe it to be an option at all by RAW, viable or not. Even if it were, the tags don't have the range to communicate with each other.
THIS is very True...
longbowrocks
May 4 2011, 07:48 PM
Can they communicate with each other within the magazine of a gun? If you can inhabit those as an AI, can you make them your home node and add your signal/2 to them?
Dez384
May 4 2011, 07:58 PM
Signal of 0 is 3 meters, so if you had a bullet every 2.9 meters...
longbowrocks
May 4 2011, 08:22 PM
Chinese army.
Obviously.
Halflife
May 4 2011, 08:23 PM
Is there anything in the rules for Clusters that actually requires the devices to be in direct communication with each other? It says they need to be linked but it is somewhat vague as to what that exactly means. Theoretically as long as there was some connection between the nodes (including the Matrix connections that link commlinks together) you could build a supercluster pretty easily.
The major problem is that your Firewall and System will suck if it is built from RFID tags, which would be bad for any wannabe world dominating AI.
Dez384
May 4 2011, 08:30 PM
QUOTE (Halflife @ May 4 2011, 04:23 PM)

The major problem is that your Firewall and System will suck if it is built from RFID tags, which would be bad for any wannabe world dominating AI.
But that would be good for the Shadowrunners fighting it.
Theoretically a super clustering AI would have a chain of slaved clustered nodes.
The Jopp
May 5 2011, 11:17 AM
QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 4 2011, 07:44 PM)

I think the cluster of bullets would need at least one standard node device in it since RFID tags are peripheral nodes which can't run programs they weren't built to run.
Well...Guns are nodes...And the ammo could be memory storage for the AI...
The Jopp
May 5 2011, 11:19 AM
QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 4 2011, 08:58 PM)

Signal of 0 is 3 meters, so if you had a bullet every 2.9 meters...
I certainly hope that the bullets in my clip are within 2,9 meters of each other.
Hmm, sending data to recipient weapon node through automatic fire towards node location (shoot towards owner of gun, infiltrate the targets gun with AI.)
Yerameyahu
May 5 2011, 01:09 PM
The original premise was 'all of the ammo in Ares', not in a clip.
The Jopp
May 5 2011, 01:54 PM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 01:09 PM)

The original premise was 'all of the ammo in Ares', not in a clip.

Yes I know.
But remember, networking ammunition and weapons.
Load a grenade with destuctive programs and an agent or AI - Throw said Grenade towards enemies, infect their weapons and ammunition.
2,9 meters with networking can be interesting - not to mention that Security Tracker Rounds with RFID 150Y per 10 ammo have a device rating of 3...
That's signal rating 3 ammo for 7,5Y per shot. Add 500Y and for 57,5Y you have signal 4 ammo.
What's the device rating of grenades?
Fortinbras
May 5 2011, 02:34 PM
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 5 2011, 08:54 AM)

Load a grenade with destuctive programs and an agent or AI - Throw said Grenade towards enemies, infect their weapons and ammunition.
Remember, the enemies have Matrix countermeasures, too. In order to infect the enemy's system, it has to get inside it, past the Firewalls and all that good stuff. In the meantime, the enemy's hackers and agents are doing all they can to prevent it while simultaniously trying to infect your system.
If there were a device that could simply be thrown and infect another device without electronic warfare, we'd be all over that.
This is what I assume happens in war in the 2070's. While mages are throwing spells with navy binoculars and grunts are on the ground, hurling massicve amounts of munitions at each other, a bunch of guys are in full VR inflicting more Dumpshock than a thread about how over powered magicians are.
Total freaking war! Awesome, right. If only someone would write a book about it.
Now having an AI on your side, that would be truly outstanding. No wonder the corps were so adamant on making sure they weren't declared legal species. Kind of makes all the sick stuff they did in Emergence make sense.
Now if only we could get our hands on some techno snakes!
CanRay
May 5 2011, 02:49 PM
So you DDoS attack the Firewall with a brute force attempt called "Fully Automatic Fire"!

How the frag have I derailed the thread, yet it's still on the rails?
Yerameyahu
May 5 2011, 03:44 PM
They do not have a device rating of 3.

You maniacs.
longbowrocks
May 6 2011, 02:07 AM
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 5 2011, 06:34 AM)

Remember, the enemies have Matrix countermeasures, too. In order to infect the enemy's system, it has to get inside it, past the Firewalls and all that good stuff. In the meantime, the enemy's hackers and agents are doing all they can to prevent it while simultaniously trying to infect your system.
What about the surprise round? or several dozen surprise rounds? Who has ever heard of an AI who inhabits guns and propagates by grenades?
Yerameyahu
May 6 2011, 02:10 AM
I subscribe to the view that, if you can think of it, 5 other organizations ranging from street gangs to megacorps already did.
Halflife
May 6 2011, 02:51 AM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 10:10 PM)

I subscribe to the view that, if you can think of it, 5 other organizations ranging from street gangs to megacorps already did.

A lot of people are breaking the laws of physics around here then...
CanRay
May 6 2011, 02:52 AM
QUOTE (Halflife @ May 5 2011, 09:51 PM)

A lot of people are breaking the laws of physics around here then...

That's ten years hard time if caught, BTW.
longbowrocks
May 6 2011, 03:01 AM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 06:10 PM)

I subscribe to the view that, if you can think of it, 5 other organizations ranging from street gangs to megacorps already did.

Jeez, how many AI's do you think there are in the SR universe? Especially AI's that capable.

I can generally accept that view, but if it's something ridiculous and exotic, It's entirely likely no one has thought of it yet. Someone needs to be the first for every idea.
Yerameyahu
May 6 2011, 03:27 AM
After the whole Crash and everything, probably a fair number. Not scads, but enough. Given that they live in computers, why *wouldn't* they have thought of this?

Not like they need to, of course. There are much more stable mesh connections and proper nodes already in place everywhere.
longbowrocks
May 6 2011, 03:36 AM
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 07:27 PM)

Not like they need to, of course. There are much more stable mesh connections and proper nodes already in place everywhere.
There's part of the reason I don't think they would have thought of this. It's a silly idea, and even if they happen upon it, they'll probably immediately discard the idea.
Since AI's live in computers, it's unlikely that they would see any advantages to uploading themselves into active munitions (well, Marvin from hitch hikers guide to the galaxy might).

Also, you say a fair number, but how many of those could conceivably pull this off? I imagine a lot of those are for more mundane purposes with low hacking capabilities, especially considering the shock from Deus.
Fortinbras
May 6 2011, 03:53 AM
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 5 2011, 09:07 PM)

What about the surprise round? or several dozen surprise rounds? Who has ever heard of an AI who inhabits guns and propagates by grenades?
Surprise Round? In Matrix Combat? Even with your Mute option, no reason that infection can't be cleared out before the next combat turn.
AI's inhibiting guns may not be new, but viruses, agents and malware inhabiting it became old two seconds after they became wireless accessible.
That's why AI's are so dangerous and why so many crops trapped and experimented on them. If you really want to see how dangerous this AI inhabitation concept can be, rather than just the "throw a device, infect all tech" nonsense, check out the Animator power in
Running Wild.
I gave that to the feral AI in the warehouse in
Emergence and my group lost their minds.
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