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Bushw4cker
Why do some of the vehicles in 4E Anniversary Edition have no Sensor Attribute?

Does the a Rating 3 Vision Enhancement, take up 3 Capacity on a Camera? I would say no, because it doesn't with Cyberware.

I also noticed no price/list/rating/capacity entry for the Static Scene Laser Monitoring System...

Is their a formula for figuring out the Sensor rating attribute of a vehicle if someone wants to customize it?


Example:

GMC Bulldog Step-Van

/w Improved Sensor Array

(1) Atmosphere Sensor (Rating 3)
(1) Camera (Front) (Rating 6) w/ Vis Mag, Vision Enchance-3, LowL, Therm, Ultrasound, FC
(1) Camera (Back) (Rating 6) w/ Vis Mag, Vision Enchance-3, LowL, Therm, Ultrasound, FC
(1) Camera (Right Side) (Rating 6) w/ Vis Mag, Vision Enchance-3, LowL, Therm, Ultrasound, FC
(1) Camera (Left Side) (Rating 6) w/ Vis Mag, Vision Enchance-3, LowL, Therm, Ultrasound, FC
(4) Microphone (F/B/RS/LS) (Rating 6) w/ Audio Enchance-3, Sound Filt-3, Spatial Recognizer
(2) Laser Range Finders (Front/Back)
(4) Motion Sensors (Front/Back/Left Side/Right Side)
(5) Radar (Rating 6)
(1) Radio Signal Scanner (Rating 6)
(1) Non Linear Junction Detector (Rating 6)
(1) Radiation (Rating 4)
(2) Ultra Wide Band Radar (Rating 4)

Total Capacity 25


suoq
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jun 3 2011, 01:18 PM) *
Why do some of the vehicles in 4E Anniversary Edition have no Sensor Attribute?
They do in the back of Arsenal.

QUOTE
Does the a Rating 3 Vision Enhancement, take up 3 Capacity on a Camera? I would say no, because it doesn't with Cyberware.
My understanding is capacity = enhancements regardless of ratings. However availability, I belive, is additive so if your start putting a bunch of stuff on a set of glasses it may exceed availability 12.

QUOTE
I also noticed no price/list/rating/capacity entry for the Static Scene Laser Monitoring System...
There isn't one. As mentioned earlier, I don't believe it's for players.

QUOTE
Is their a formula for figuring out the Sensor rating attribute of a vehicle if someone wants to customize it?
Unfortunately, there are several. Most make no sense at all. For example the best way by RAW as I understand them is to mount a single rating 6 camera on the car and get rid of all other sensors.

IIRC correctly, you need to average all the rating of your sensors so that Atmosphere Sensor in your Step Van actually makes the dang thing worse just by being there.
Bushw4cker
[quote name='suoq' date='Jun 3 2011, 07:47 PM' post='1075328']
They do in the back of Arsenal.

There are a few, The GMC Banshee, that don't have Sensor Ratings, not updated in Errata either. Maybe my Arsenal Book is old...
suoq
QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Jun 3 2011, 02:52 PM) *
There are a few, The GMC Banshee, that don't have Sensor Ratings, not updated in Errata either. Maybe my Arsenal Book is old...

Oh yeah, the aircraft from SR4 never got sensors. I missed that. Odd... Well, since all of them have a Sensor 2, except the Executive Jet, I'd probably just give them all a 2.
Yerameyahu
A military/security aircraft would need way better than Sensor 2.

In any case, the one true and good way to do sensors is to use the rating of whatever sensor(s) are relevant for that specific test: camera(s) if it's visual, radar if it's through a wall or thermal smoke, etc. And it should be aimed the right way! In no case should anyone benefit from the 'one R6 camera' situation, nor should they be *penalized* by having the atmosphere sensor. smile.gif Unfortunately, this means details and GM common sense are both required.

Static Scene isn't a sensor. It's a security installation. Same with things like pressure pads, which are also listed in the security section. You install them in a building, not a vehicle or portable unit.
suoq
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 3 2011, 10:05 PM) *
A military/security aircraft would need way better than Sensor 2.

Give the WASP whatever you want then.
Yerameyahu
The Yellowjacket? You should. None of those stats make sense compared to what we know about reality, and Sensor is a major part of the vehicle attack DP (particularly jumped-in, but also for any sensor-enhanced stuff). Why is a ¥10 million fighter-bomber so bad at locating and attacking targets? A ¥2 million attack helicopter, the same? A sub destroyer that relies on sonar and other sensors? The ¥30 million *patrol* sub? It's nuts that none of them have Sensor above 2 or 3.

Your suggestion is fine, following the book. I'm saying the book is stupid. smile.gif Detecting a metahuman (or anything else) with sensors is Sensor+Clearsight (or Perception), so most vehicles are as effective as the maligned Watcher spirits. Every Sensor listing in the game is crazy low (especially given the often minor cost of upgrading), but at least most of the 'serious' drones have 3. That's the same as the *best* military/security vehicles in Arsenal… and the freaking Transys Steed, *and* the 100¥ emotitoy!

It also means almost every last vehicle in the game is trivial to jam into blindness (a few of the military ones at least have ECCM, so they'll survive).
Minchandre
I houserule most of the security vehicles up to 4 and the military vehicles up to 5, with 6s on the big ones. Higher is possible, of course, but I figured that it wouldn't come "off the shelf"
Yerameyahu
Yeah. I mean, I'm fine with cheap cars having minimal sensors; they're not intended for combat/adverse conditions. And you can certainly upgrade (just like with Pilots, which max out around 2-3 as well). It's just nuts that vehicles literally built for perception and combat would be unable to see things, beat jamming, or use jumped-in/sensor-enhanced targeting effectively.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (suoq @ Jun 3 2011, 11:47 AM) *
IIRC correctly, you need to average all the rating of your sensors so that Atmosphere Sensor in your Step Van actually makes the dang thing worse just by being there.

If I recall correctly correctly smile.gif , that was a good idea from another thread, which should probably be the default since shadowrun puts sensor ratings on all vehicles, with no game mechanic info on sensor ratings.
Yerameyahu
Well, there's a suggested standard loadout, but it's really only appropriate for cars.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 3 2011, 09:00 PM) *
That's the same as the *best* military/security vehicles in Arsenal… and the freaking Transys Steed, *and* the 100¥ emotitoy!

It also means almost every last vehicle in the game is trivial to jam into blindness (a few of the military ones at least have ECCM, so they'll survive).

I don't follow. What's wrong with the transys steed? That fact that it has average sensor rating (or at least median)?

Question about jamming. Does anyone see where it says that jamming degrades sensor/signal? Everywhere I've looked implies a binary relationship (as in, full signal until you're completely jammed, at which point signal becomes 0).
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 4 2011, 10:47 AM) *
Well, there's a suggested standard loadout, but it's really only appropriate for cars.

But that doesn't suggest how the sensor attribute is effected, right?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jun 4 2011, 11:52 AM) *
I don't follow. What's wrong with the transys steed? That fact that it has average sensor rating (or at least median)?

Question about jamming. Does anyone see where it says that jamming degrades sensor/signal? Everywhere I've looked implies a binary relationship (as in, full signal until you're completely jammed, at which point signal becomes 0).


It is Not so much that the signal becomes Zero, but that the Jamming is more powerful than your Signal Output. It is effectively 0, since you cannot use it for anything, but it is not the same thing. Get 1 point of Signal+ECCM above the Jammer's rating, or move a few meters from its center, and you have fully functional fully ranged communications again.

What I find interesting about the Way jamming works in the game is its very limited area. For example, You will never really be able to effectively jam a moving vehicle, unless the Jammer is ON the vehicle being jammed. Range and area apparently matters. Which is counter to what we know about such things today. Just an interesting thought. Now, if a Rating 6 Jammer actually jammed communications in a 10 Mile Radius (Equal to its signal Range), and reduced signal output by its signal, that would be what I expected from Battlefield and/or Strategic Jamming. As it stands, Jamming is very, very tactical in nature, and not all that effective due to its area and falloff of effectiveness.
Yerameyahu
No, the point about the Steed is that it's a POS wheelchair, yet it has the same Sensor (3, the *best* except for the Akiyama) as patrol subs and attack helicopters.

I don't understand your question about 'how the sensor attribute is effected'. Arsenal gives a standard (car) loadout, that's all. It's not very good anyway.

Yeah, Jammers have a pretty limited range (though much better with the directional ones). :/ Still, *more* than enough to render vehicles near you blind.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 4 2011, 10:59 AM) *
Now, if a Rating 6 Jammer actually jammed communications in a 10 Mile Radius (Equal to its signal Range),

You guys interpret everything as miles? What units do you use for distances in meters? A yard is less than a meter, but a mile is more than a kilometer, so your distances kind of get out of wack in transition.
Yerameyahu
He meant km, per p222 SR4A.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jun 4 2011, 01:15 PM) *
You guys interpret everything as miles? What units do you use for distances in meters? A yard is less than a meter, but a mile is more than a kilometer, so your distances kind of get out of wack in transition.


Indeed I did Yerameyahu. 10 KM is Different than 10 Miles. Sorry Longbowrocks, worng unit of Measure.
It was a point, though. The miniscule area that a Jammer covers is laughable, in my opinion. If it was equivalent to its Signal Rating, then it would actually be worth something. I much prefer Active Jamming over using Jammers, and even then, the range is often laughable.
Yerameyahu
Yup. This is an area that could be house ruled, certainly. Still, as I said, wearing a jammer is effectively a ninja smoke bomb against almost any vehicle near you.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 4 2011, 01:50 PM) *
Yup. This is an area that could be house ruled, certainly. Still, as I said, wearing a jammer is effectively a ninja smoke bomb against almost any vehicle near you.


Ermmmmm... Only if they are really, really close (Jamming degrades every 5 Meters for Standard Jammers, and Ever 20 Meters for Directionals) and are not using any ECCM.

A Signal 5, ECCM 6 Setup completely ignores Jammers (on the Military Scale Top-end of 10) and a Signal 3, ECCM 4 Setup bypasses Rating 6 or below). Wholly inadequate.
Yerameyahu
Um. Yes, being close was precisely what I was referring to with the word 'near'. smile.gif As I said, every vehicle in the game is Sensor 3 or less (except the Akiyama). There *is* no Sensor 5, ECCM 6 setup. That's the whole point. A couple hugely expensive military vehicles have Sensor 3, ECCM 4, so those few aren't totally blinded by a jammer.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 4 2011, 01:02 PM) *
Um. Yes, being close was precisely what I was referring to with the word 'near'. smile.gif As I said, every vehicle in the game is Sensor 3 or less (except the Akiyama). There *is* no Sensor 5, ECCM 6 setup. That's the whole point. A couple hugely expensive military vehicles have Sensor 3, ECCM 4, so those few aren't totally blinded by a jammer.


Except that you CAN upgrade Signal to a Rating of 6. Being able to upgrade your Comlink to 6+ in Signal rating, for its piddly power output indicates to me that you can upgrade your Signal to 6 if you wanted to do the same thing on a vehicle. I could care less about Sensor Rating. Sensor rating takes care of itself when you upgrade your signal rating (Whatever your sensors see, can now be transmitted that much further). Sensors are generally not all that compromised by Jammers.

And Yerameyahu... Notice I said Signal above, not Sensor. Just pointing it out... smile.gif
Yerameyahu
I noticed, which is why I said Sensor, again. Because Sensor is what I'm talking about, specifically the Sensor of vehicles off the shelf in the book. More specifically, how stupid-low they are. And Sensors *are* particularly compromised by Jammers. Which is why I said, "that's the whole point". smile.gif I get the feeling that you're not fulfilling the requirement of reading my posts before you respond *to* them, Tymeaus!

Arsenal, p105, Sensors and Jamming. I've literally been talking about this for the whole thread. The irony of you 'pointing out' things for me is off the charts. biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 4 2011, 02:08 PM) *
I noticed, which is why I said Sensor, again. Because Sensor is what I'm talking about, specifically the Sensor of vehicles off the shelf in the book. More specifically, how stupid-low they are. And Sensors *are* particularly compromised by Jammers. Which is why I said, "that's the whole point". smile.gif I get the feeling that you're not fulfilling the requirement of reading my posts before you respond *to* them, Tymeaus!

Arsenal, p105, Sensors and Jamming. I've literally been talking about this for the whole thread. The irony of you 'pointing out' things for me is off the charts. biggrin.gif


Heheheh... biggrin.gif And yet, A Sensor package can ALSO be raised to a Rating of 6. It just takes a bit of effort. Why all the complaints. smile.gif Besides, I was caught up in the Signal Rating and Jamming controversy (even if was my own, it is still ludicrous), and did not think about the comparison to Sensors. My Apologies.
Yerameyahu
No worries. I knew you'd gotten distracted. Yes, you can (frankly, must) upgrade Sensors. The off-the-shelf ratings are wholly inadequate, that's all I'm saying. They're inadequate for even routine Perception, for any sensor-enhanced targeting or rigging, and for resisting even weak Jammers (including On The Fly)… and again, these are million-nuyen military combat vehicles we're talking about (except the couple that have a little ECCM).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 4 2011, 03:25 PM) *
No worries. I knew you'd gotten distracted. Yes, you can (frankly, must) upgrade Sensors. The off-the-shelf ratings are wholly inadequate, that's all I'm saying. They're inadequate for even routine Perception, for any sensor-enhanced targeting or rigging, and for resisting even weak Jammers (including On The Fly)… and again, these are million-nuyen military combat vehicles we're talking about (except the couple that have a little ECCM).


Yeah, it is a Huge Disconnect for the High End Military Vehicles. No worries... smile.gif
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