The future can be seen on a clear day..

Invent? I think some patent trolls at Catalyst games could make a bunch with a few pointed glances at the SR4 rulebooks.

-Tir


(Are they really as bad as everyone says?)

Emotitoys? It isn't that they're bad, just that they're fairly pointless. They're so cheap and so useful that there really isn't any reason for anyone except for a completely broke beggar (and even he should have it for the +6 bonus on begging) to not have it.

Emotitoys don't seem like they'd be anywhere near as prevalent once you think about them being a toy. If the Rosetta Stone company released emotion software and said "this will help you understand others for only $2,000" and Hasbro released Pikachu, Talker Edition for $400 with the same claim, how many execs are suddenly going to walk around with a pokemon on their shoulder?

Execs? Not so many. People who aren't quite so rich? Alot.

Especially when you consider that to use Rosetta stone's program you'd require a $15000 smart phone as well.

Also with the bonus it provides it isn't 'help you understand others' it is 'be able to virtually mind read and mind control people'.

If said pokemon is in the shape of the company mascot, I am not sure execs won't suddenly walk around with one on their shoulder.

Which is a completely ludicrous claim, as has been often stated.

Although ludicrous as it may be, but false it is not. It gives such an advantage that it appears as such to an outside observer, hence "virtually" mind read or mind control.

Which book are the emotitoys in? I have often heard them discussed but I am not sure that I have read the actual rules.

They're in Arsenal

Funny, it has never appeared that way to me. You cannot make someone do something that they are opposed to doing. You will not change a Lesbian to a Lover through a Huge Dice Pool With your Social Skills. Won't happen. You ascribe to much power to your Social Skills.

Hence small but important words like virtual, and through enough social skill you might be able to convince a lesbian to 'give it a try' depending on just how certain they are about their sexuality.

Perhaps it should be limited to 'virtual mind reading' as opposed to the control part, because that is basically what empathy software does for. 6 extra dice for joe average is three times their actual social ability. For Joe salesman that's doubling his ability. For Joe Corporate spokesman that's still a good 50% boost or so to his ability.

We're talking huge boosts here, not just 'help you understand people a bit better'. In all honesty I think you'd get less benefit from hooking the other person up to a lie detector than using empathy software.

2 Average Hits is Huge Boosts? Hmmm... Right...

4+ Hits is Critical Success, whether you have 4 or 40. Can't get any better than Critical Success... And that will STILL not reverse someones personality in any way whatsoever.

Yeah, 2 average hits is a huge boost. It's the difference between someone who has never done something before in their life and the world's top people.

Whatever... So your telling me that a Person with a Skill of 3 and an Attribute of 3, and an average of 2 Hits, equals a World Class person? Because that is the Difference betweeen a person with a Skill 0 and And a Stat of 3, with no Average Successes and the average Professional. I think you have your stats a bit wrong...

You'd get completely unrelated results, as emotitoys can't help with lie detection and lie detector software can't help with any other social cues.

You can be unbelievably stupid when you want to be. No, listen to what I said, not random fantasies that you come up with.

A difference of 6 dice is the difference between someone with 0 skill and 5 skill. Maybe not quite the best in the world, but awfully close. Maybe in whatever game you play 2 hits doesn't change anything, but SR 2 hits is a significant difference.

I've always thought this Emotitoy stuff was utterly ridiculous. The people who actually use them in negotiations are playing a wildly different kind of game than we play at our table. You're not going to show up with a Furby to a business deal and be taken seriously. Everybody needs to take a step back for a moment and think about what these TOYS really are.

Johnson: "Yes, it's risky but that's why we're paying so well."

Mr. Frisky the Emotitoy: "Why are you so angry? Would you like a hug?"

Johnson: "What the fuck is that thing? I'll take my business elsewhere."

If anybody tried to pass that by me or pass it by one of the GMs I normally play with it would simply be laughed off the table before it ever started adding a ridiculous amount of dice to social tests. It's amazing how many loopholes get fixed when you apply the smallest amount of common sense to a situation.

Wow... Just Wow...

Skill Differences Matter to me, yes... Dice Pool Differences not so much, because you can augment Dice Pools to the Moon. 6 Dice is just that, 6 Dice... Skill 0 as compared to Skill 5, however, is something more than just 6 Dice in my opinion.

Many other disagree, since they make the stance that it is the Dice Pool that matters, and not the Skill.

2 Hits is not a big difference, in the end.

Ain't this the Truth... it cannot be said enough.

In my game there are three types of opinions on emotitoys:

1) People that see them as a toy. I tend to give them bonus dice or worse starting attitudes.

2) People that know they're a useful tool. These folks have one of their own and may or may not use them depending on personality and situation.

3) People who know the benefits of running emotion software, and also know the benfits of keeping your cards close to your chest. These people tend to have the actual software on their commlink. That way they get the dice but don't take a hit to their image.

If 2 hits isn't a big difference, then next time you play, reduce all your tests by two hits. I think you'll see quite a significant change in your effectiveness. If you don't, then it may mean that you aren't being properly challenged.

And skill has no mechanical function other than a DP bonus, so I really don't see them as being any different from the standpoint of a discussion about DPs.

One possible solution that I've never seen other GMs implement:

Arsenal itself mentions how popular digital pets like the Emotitoy have become in the 6th world. A big part of these toys even in current-day technology is the interactive element. Furby, for example, can read reactions from a person (with variable results), but put it next to another of its kind and the two of them will scream each other out of juice.

How can you use this in Shadowrun? Well, unless you're dealing with ultra-conservative corp types, chances are good that the other guy has an emotitoy too. Rather than just bumping everyone's dicepools up by the emotitoy rating, have emotitoys cancel each other out, or apply hefty negative modifiers to conducting ANY sort of conversation at all while two emotitoys are busy talking to each other. It makes sense with the technology and doesn't outright penalize anybody who wasn't trying to be a cheesymuffin in the first place.

I don't know why everyone acts like a runner's emotitoy is going to actually say anything verbally (or indeed, that it would even provide a bonus if it is telling -everybody- what it knows). If I was a runner the first thing I'd do is turn off its verbal capabilities (rip them out if I had to) and have it send the info to me as text.

See, this is where you and I disagree, and why we will never see eye to eye on this subject...

No Worries though...

While I agree on your stance, someone who normally has 6 dice (we'll say skill 3 ATT 3) who adds another 6 dice just went from 2 average hits to 4 average hits. From success level to critical success level. That is rather significant, wouldn't you agree? Although since we're talking social skills, which are usually opposed tests, you'd need 4 NET hits for a critical success. But I digress...

Heh... No worries...

Unfortunately, there is no distinction between Success and Critical Success in 95% of the Rolls in game. The only ones that have a definitive effect are combat rolls for damage. If I have a Net Success, then it is a Success, regardless of whether I have a Single Net Success or 100 Net Successes.

Are you sure about that? I mean, if you are performing a task which requires 4 hits to succeed, then simply getting 4 hits is not a critical success, but rather, a normal success. At that point, you would need 7 hits for 4 net hits to be considered a critical success, would you not? This would also apply, I would imagine, in an opposed roll, where if I have 7 hits, and you have 5, it's a normal success, versus having 9 hits to 5 being a critical success.

I personally would make ALL skill-boosting devices act as teamwork tests aiding the user.






-k

Sure... But can you tell me what the mecahnical differences are between a Normal Success (Regardless of Threshold) and a Critical Success? There is none, except for Combat related Things (ie. Damage).

Which has the added benefit of capping out ALL bonuses at the Skill rating of the Team Leader.

Doesn't matter. You can't get around the fact that you have a toy on the table with eyes staring at your Mr. Johnson and studying his every facial tic. Just imagine that scene and then ask yourself if an underworld professional is going to be okay with it.

If you're playing a game where nothing matters but the plusses and minuses on a piece of paper, more power to you. I hope you're having fun. If you're trying for any sort of immersion or even the smallest amount of role playing, then carrying a toy to work just makes you look like an idiot.

Agreed... Which is why the Emotitoy is not a Runner's Choice at our table.

*shrug* Stick it in a pocket or something so only the head is visible, or heck, mod the thing to look like something else. There a million ways to get around the 'toy' aspect of the emotitoy even if you feel like ignoring the whole 'they are very common and popular among shadowrunners' fluff from the book. The point is that it is stupid to give access to software that costs 3k and requires an ~15k system to run on for 600.

And no, I don't use emotitoys. I ban their use in my games and generally don't use them in other games unless everyone else is (In which case it is basically required to have any chance at doing anything social)

Yes, The only way to get around the Toy aspect is to ban it, I agree. And then enforce the System Requirements on the Empathy Sensor Software and other related software.

If only I could find the post which contained the punch line I'm thinking of in regards to Emotitoys. I believe it was something to the effect of a a cokehead screaming "Bobo says you lie!".

You can however make someone do something that they were opposed to doing before you came along. You can persuade a lesbian to make love to a man with huge social dice pools. It can happen. The amount of power I ascribe to social skill is as RAW as I can make it.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/830/emooy.jpg/





-k

"Yeah, of course, I'm a Johnson, what did you expect?"

Nope...

Usually changing someone's mind that completely involves time, in addition to massive charisma.

You have to get to know the person well enough that you can figure out the cracks in their "armor", so to speak, and be able to inject seeds of self doubt and confusion. Eventually you may be able to convince them that their former position was wrong and agreeing with you is the most sensible thing.

It's just that in roleplaying games (and movies), this apparently takes 2 minutes.




-k

I think the American Dad episode 'Failure is not a Factory-Installed Option' is a good example of negotiation in SR.