So the way weapon foci work is that the attuned wearer activates it and channels his magic through it, thereby making it dual natured. Why couldn't a mage or adept do this with a suit of armor properly enchanted for such things?

Just a theory for discussion. I know it would screw with a lot of the game's mechanics, but would this work in the fluff?

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but my search-fu is failing miserably today.

It's harder to enchant processed and artificial things, like kevlar. As a Shadowrunner, your armor is more likely going to look like a cullender after a few runs than anything else, so there goes your foci.

You theoretically could turn your armored jacket into a foci or fetish, but I don't see how that would be superior to a ring or wand or grass skirt.

I believe the easiest way to make an armor focus, under the current rules, is with a Sustaining focus, on a mage with the Armor spell. Or possibly reinforce. I know there's one that raises existing armor value.

Or, possibly, a Custom Enchantment.

I was considering a sustained armor spell, but that wouldn't protect from astral combat since its not dual natured.

I suppose, rules wise, it would be closest to the Mystic Armor adept power. But I was more wondering if this would be possible in the fluff.

You do know that there is an Astral Version of the Armor Spell, right?

And you do know that making armor dual natured doesn't make it protect the you astrally the way mundane armor does, right?

Of course not. But allowing "armour foci" would allow for a boost in astral defence.

And, I've thought about this, mostly because I was a D&D player before SR. The only reasonable thing I can think of is that the armour foci adds dice to damage resistance, but doesn't impact what counts for reducing damage from physical to stun, much like Weapon Foci don't add directly to damage.

Also: It doesn't necessarily have to be armour, but a ring, if the GM allows it, but the GM could also figure to restrict it, much as weapon foci are restricted to things you hit people with, and can't be used with ranged weapons.

How so?

The actual foci boost would increase dice on the resistance test for both astral and physical combat.

Umm, exactly the same way as weapon focus works in astral just like it does in real world.

Yeah, good point. I forgot about that.

Only if it's Counterspelling foci, and then it works whether it armor or earrings.
Just wearing something that is dual natured doesn't give you a boost to anything.

EDIT: A Weapon focus works in the real world because it's a weapon. It works in the astral because it's a weapon focus. It would not do the same were the weapon a sustaining focus.

You do realise that the topic is about a new type of a foci, right
Or at the very least the post you responded to was.

In which case, what would people cost it at?

I'm not dismissing the idea here, but merely putting forth my perspective: the fewer 'magic items' in SR4, the better. It's not a game that should have rings of protection, etc. Weapon foci fulfill a unique need: attacking intangible things. Armor foci, on the other hand, would just be giving you more armor. Everything can already resist any attack (even stunbolt), so it's not enabling a unique situation like weapon foci do.

Also, this question will be answered in an upcoming sourcebook!

Facrissake, people: a focus, some foci.

As I understood it, Nick was suggesting with "Why don't magicians..." that this be done with an existing focus.

But yeah, if you want to make up a new house rule that's fine. Go nuts.

Artifacts Unbound?

It's just a joke, referening to a line found in many of the FAQ:s answers to magic related questions.
It was most likely reference to the Advanced magic book Ancient History was writing before he quit, only god knows whether we're still gonna get a book like that one day.

Yes, and...

Tell me about it. I have the chapters of Mr. Derie's unpublished Harlequin's Gambit and would really have liked to have seen that come to fruition. I don't need new Magic rules, but I liked the idea of there being more of a connection between the plots of FASA and Catalyst Shadowrun.

I was actually referring to the text while he released just titled NotesTowardTheAdvancedMagicBook_Derie.

Options:

Stacked Sustaining Focus--Effectively two sustaining foci in the same physical item--costs the same as bonding/crafting two separate foci, only one physical item. Sustain Armor and Astral Armor.
Unique Enchantment--Damage Reduction: Adds bonus dice equal to Force for all Damage Resistance tests, note--does not apply to Drain resistance.
Ritual Link--through advanced metamagic techniques based on Sacrifice, the creator forges a link between the bearer and another creature. On each attack, (Grade) boxes of damage are immediately shunted to the other creature and soaked normally. Due to the magical nature of the shift, Armor does not aid the other creature in resisting the damage.

Edit: I'd put the Unique Enchantment as a Bonding cost equal to a Power Focus. Independent research required to custom craft the enchantment. (Yay Arcana)

Ritual Link--advanced metamagic, requiring Sacrifice and Power Bleed.

Just Awesome BishopMcQ... Perfect ideas all around.

Ugghhh the last thing the game needs is an advanced magic book. We're already verging to magicrun territory as is.

Of course, one would have to figure out the fine details, such as the fact that the Armor spell is a Physical spell. What would happen to it if the bearer of the focus projected astrally?

Same thing as any other physical sustained spell. As long as the stacked focus/spell isn't messed with too badly, the spell still stays in effect, and protects the (empty) body of the mage (or whoever was targeted).

HunterHerne read it the way I would as a GM. The Physical spell, stays on the body and the Astral (Mana based) spell goes with the astral form.

Personally, as a character, if I was going to project I'd swap out Armor for Physical Barrier, since that would help keep people away from body to keep it from becoming a corpse.

And possibly provide a little boost for the rest of your team (or at least the mostly non-combatants).

regarding the foci armor question, its actually possible to do under the rules, but it involves Weapon Foci.

From the FAQ:
Q: If you turn a weapon into a focus, but not a weapon focus, can I attack astral forms with it?
A: Under the current rules, only weapon foci may specifically be used in astral combat. This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook.

Q: If you turn a weapon into a focus, but not a weapon focus, does it still do damage to creatures with Immunity to Normal Weapons?
A: No. It is magic, but it is not a magic weapon. Most spirits don’t have Immunity to Normal Weapons unless they’re materialized or possessing a vessel, but the ability to circumvent Immunity to Normal Weapons is one of the advantages of weapon foci.
note, however, this is for spellcasting focus. Weapon foci, however, do work.

Q: If my Spellcasting Focus is an armored vest or shield, do I get an armor bonus against attacks from the astral?
A: No. The telesma of the focus might provide armor, but not mystic armor such as that provided by the Mystic Armor adept power, the Mystic Armor critter power, or the Astral Armor spell.
Note that, again, this is for Spellcasting focus





So if you put all this together, I believe a Weapon focus (not a spellcasting, not a sustaining, it has to be a Weapon) focus as a suit of armor will work against astral attacks.
Weapon foci are special, in that they actually have a tangible astral form, more so than other foci, it seems, and you can explicitly bring copies of them along when you project.

The downside is that you lose out on the bonus dice for your foci, because you're probably not bashing people with your leather jacket/breastplate/what have you.
The upside is, you only need a force 1 foci to claim the benefits.

So, to sum up, armor foci don't exist, but weapon foci can still accomplish the same, or very similiar, thing.

That doesn't make sense. All active foci have an astral form, there's nothing special about weapon foci… except that they alone can be used as astral weapons. Nothing to do with armor.

No, it doesn't, because the FAQ is, frankly, a POS - but apparently astrally active foci can't be used to harm spirits(bypass itnw), because non-weapon foci aren't astral enough. Or something. For the record, I can agree it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, the specific bit of relevant rules text that weapon foci have is this bit:


Which other foci do not have. The bit about force is less important than the basic form being useful against astral forms, where other types of foci aren't.

Udoshi--Maybe I'm being a little thick (haven't eaten yet), but I don't see the support for the jump from "does the same damage" to "provides the same armor benefits" in the quotes you gave above. I could see the argument that the appearance of the armor comes with you, as the astral form of focus which is woven into the armor. The third question you listed from the FAQ seems to say that it doesn't provide any armor.

I agree that the FAQ could have been worded better. I believe the intent of "not astral enough" (as you phrased it) was to avoid producing new rules for sustaining foci rings being used as brass knuckles on the astral and the like. It accompanies the argument of FAB in a capsule round etc.

You're pretty much right.

However, the third FAQ is for Spellcasting foci. I would agree that they were trying to limit the introduction of new rules, but also to emphasize that you need Weapon Foci to fight with. (i kind of don't agree with this, because it doesn't make sense. astral is astral, why is another foci not good enough now?)

While the rules don't support it explicitly, if its magical enough to block, parry, and beat someone with, it should be magical enough to take a blow or two.

I do see where you're coming from, but I think your reasoning is not necessarily the only one. My view is that weapon foci are uniquely, magically 'offensive', not uniquely 'astral tangible'. Their ability to strike and parry is an essential weapon-ness, not an issue of 'physicality'.

So, if a weapon focus designed as armor were to be used to parry an astral attack, would it get the Force in bonus dice for the parry? And therefore act sort of like an armor focus, in the sense that it adds dice to a defensive move?

AFAIK, you can parry with a weapon focus. That's part of weapon-ness. I reserve judgement on the concept of 'weapon focus designed as armor', because I suspect that it makes no sense.

The goal is something that gives more damage resistance dice, right?

Which a Sustaining Focus (or Quickening) and an Astral Armor spell does already, and quite nicely. No fiddling with the Rules whatsoever.

Only in the same way any other weapon focus would. Carrying a Weapon Focus knife will provide the same Parry bonus are wearing a Weapon Focus jacket.
Weapon focus only add dice to an attack roll, they don't have any astral armor to speak of.

EDIT: SR4a says that Weapon focus only add to melee attacks, not to parry.

Interesting. Thanks for checking that, Fortinbras. Not that parrying is armor anyway.

Yeah, Tymeaus. Perfect solution already.

Indeed... I am a bit confused as to why there is this quest for Armor Foci... *shrug*

Well, a focus doesn't require a metamagic to enable it, for one thing. Quickening does.

So... Use a Sustaining Focus and the Astral Armor Spell... These already exist...
Deja Vu... I Think that I have heard that somewhere before...

Tymaeaus--are you espousing a tradition of literacy and long-term memory? HERESY! Admittedly one of the options I put forth supported your plan, I just tossed out others for people to play with..

Literacy and improvements in Long-Term Memory would be a step up for the world, BishopMcQ, but alas, I hold no hope for the future.

No worries...

The vain hope is that one can buy a level 1 weapon focus on an armor jacket and get 8 points of astral armor for cheap.

A Vain Hope Indeed...