Hello! This is my first post here but I´ve been reading Dumpshock forums for some time now. English is not my first language so I apologize in advance for any errors.

I play with friends using SR3 rules and something came up during one of my Astral Projections (I´m a hermetic mage).

SR3 rules state that you can use Sorcery instead of a melee/unarmed skill in Astral Combat (page 174). So, well, I met a insect shaman (yes, I´m in Bug City) during my astral projection and cast a manabolt (my sorcery is 6 and I saved 1 die for spell defense) on him.

Next combat phase he attacked me with his club (a weapon focus, of course) and my GM stated that I could only use 1 die from sorcery (the one I saved for spell defense) plus my Astral Combat Pool to defend myself from the melee attack. Is this correct?

I understand that if you use sorcery for astral combat these dice are used up for purposes of spell casting, spell defense and so on for the rest of combat turn, but, is the opposite true? If I use sorcery to cast a spell, can´t I use them again to protect myself from a melee attack in the astral plane?

Thanks in advance for any opinions in this matter,
regards,
Kypp

I don't believe so. I'll have to double check my books, but I believe you hold back spell pool, not your sorcery skill for spell defense. Regardless, your sorcery SKILL does not 'run out'. If you're with-holding 1 point of your sorcery skill for something else per the spell defense rules, that means that remaining 5 points is available as your normal skill, and you can use it multiple times. It sounds like your GM is confusing sorcery skill with spell pool. Only spell pool 'runs out'. Skills do not.

Thanks for your opinion, nezumi!

In SR3, to be able to use spell defense you have to save at least one die from sorcery (and then any amount of dice from the spell pool), if I read it correctly.

My GM didn´t get confused with sorcery skill/spell pool either. It´s just that he can´t accept that I could use the same skill, twice, for different purposes. His argument is that sorcery, in SR3, is a unique skill, apart from the rest. To prove his point, the core rulebook itself states that sorcery, when used as a substitute for melee/unarmed in astral combat gets used up, so there´s clearly an exception to this rule there and that´s the source of the problem.

Any hints of how I can prove my point to him?

regards,
Kypp

I am entirely unfamiliar with SR3, but, having a decent idea of how RPGs work....


You should point out that this is dumb, because if skills can be 'used up' instead of rolled whenever the game tells you to roll X+Y, it leads to stupid things like this:
"I shoot the guy twice"
"He tries to dodge"
"he can't dodge the second shot, because he already used up that skill."

Further point out: If you hold one die back for spell defense, does it also get used up after defending against the first spell?
If not, point to the rules that say so.

I have my book open now, so I can actually know what I"m saying You're correct, spell defense draws from either sorcery (and possibly spell pool) simultaneously. Be aware that this was clarified in later editions, but dice held for spell pool cannot be used for other things; those dice are held.

Regardless, the spell defense pool is sort of a red herring here. The question is:



How about that, that's what the book says (p. 174). I would check if there's any errata on it except ... I can't tell you where SR3 errata is any more. Without being able to check errata, I can't give you much except the simple argument that playing that way kinda sucks and can be frustrating, and please change it.

Yes, in SR3, if you hold dice for spell defense and actually defend against some spell, they get used up until the next combat turn.

Well, that´s pretty much what I did, but he came up with a house rule that pretty much avoids what he percieves as "unfair" or "illogical". In this house rule of his if I use the sorcery dice for sorcery I can´t use them as a substitute for astral combat in that combat phase and vice versa. They get "used up". Next phase I get to choose again where the sorcery points will go and so on. The result of this house rule is that it gives a real advantage to those who have an armed or unarmed combat skill over those who don´t in the astral plane. The ones who do have the skill (armed or unarmed) get to attack others in the astral plane with their combat skill and astral combat pool while having the option to save all their sorcery and spell pool to spell defense. The ones who don´t have to choose one of the options and pray. If my Hermetic Mage meets the Insect Shaman again in the Astral Plane, I won´t be able to do anything because I´ll have to save all the sorcery dice to try to avoid being hit.

The thing is, my GM is a pretty intelligent and reasonable guy, who really tries to be as fair as he can, all the time. This time his mind clicked the wrong way and for some reason I couldn´t make him see that the rules are easier than they look in this case. I was kind of hoping that one of the guys who were writers/playtesters for the system and who lurk around in these forums could come and say a word or two about this issue. That´s about the only thing I can think of that could be able to make him rethink his decision.

Anyway, it´s just a game and it´s not a big deal if I can´t change his mind, although I appreciate the help you guys gave me and I´ll appreciate even more if more people could try to offer their points of view on the situation.

regards,
Kypp

To be fair, in working on SR3R we just dumped the whole 'sorcery can be used as a combat skill' rule altogether and required mages have a combat skill (or the new skill, Astral Combat, which applies to ANY weapon type when used in the astral).

The problem here though is you built your character on the assumption that you were covered. You may wish to bring this up with your GM and ask if you can shift some of your points around a bit.

Hmmm... not sure if I have the points but it is a good suggestion. I´ll talk to him and see what he thinks of the idea. Thanks nezumi!

I'm going to have to frigging re-read the damn books again, my mage of STR 2 was dreading having to learn some martial arts skills to be able to connect with the stiffs on the astral...sheesh.

-Tir