Hi All;

I have several questions coming from my last gaming session.

First is a question about mind probe. The Mage in my group is using it constantly. It says that the person being mind probed knows something is happening, even if they don't know where it's coming from. The Mage is doing things like bumping into marks and mind probing them, then trying say, "hey, I just bumped into you, I don't know what's going on." For something like that, would it be an opposed Con test? Is there anything else you can tell me about how you play the "mind probe" thing to not make it seem overpowered?

The mage likes to overcast his spells, then have a medkit heal him up afterwards. That seems to me like it's the best of both worlds. Hurt yourself overcasting, heal up with medkit, then go do more damage overcasting, heal up again, repeat ad nauseum. Does it take time for the medkit to work or is it instantaneous? Again, any insights into how this works and how to possibly make the repercussions of overcasting seem more serious would be very welcome.

Another question we had is "First Impression" works only on the first meeting. Would being in a disguise make "First Impression" work a second time?

How does a sub-vocal mic work? Does a person using one actually have to make sound? I figure it picks up on quiet sounds, so they might have to whisper for the sub-vocal mic to pick up the sound.

What skills would be used to tail someone while in a car and not be noticed?

How does a player raise the "connection" rating on a contact?

Thanks in advance for your help. I really appreciate it.

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edited for spelling errors

I'll admit outright, there are aspects of this that I am no SME on, as I'm a bit rusty on some rules. But I do correlate information and do research well, so let's see what I can come up with, and hopefully it's helpful.

1. In the case of the Mind Probe, it's a situational judgment call on your part, as there are no rules explicitly written for that scenario, but I'll offer what I would go by. There are two key factors I would consider every time he used the spell:

- What does the target know about magic? If they're Joe Normal, and they know magic exists and does crazy stuff, then they may have no idea at all they need to be touched for the spell to work. If they are savvy, not even necessarily awakened, but someone who is security conscious and could have done their own research, or been briefed or clued in, then they could be assumed to know it's a touch based spell and the player could be outright hooped for hiding it. If they're Awakened, however, this does not mean they know how the spell itself works (there are all manner of kinds of caster, and some just pull spells out of their ass without knowing anything beyond their own magic). If they can be assumed to be clueless about the spell itself, then it comes down to factor two;
- How subtle is the mage being? If he's just walking up to the guy and doing the old pickpocket 'oops' when no one else is around, then he's going to have a hard sell ahead of him. If he is savvy, and make contact in a crowded area, say on a busy sidewalk, then he may even fool a paranoid caster (I'd call for something stealth based there, Palming likely). If the mark is suspicious, then a Con check is entirely appropriate, however said check should be modified by the magic knowledge of the mark, and again how obvious the player is being (talking to the mark, especially preemptively, would make the Con check pretty damned hard).

2. I'm going to call shenanigans on your player's part here. Overcasting does Physical damage, clearly, and while a medkit does a wonder with First Aid, the healing rules (SRA p. 252) explicitly state that healing physical takes a day of rest. A mage can't simply cast until his eyes bleed, heal up, and cast right away. Until he's rested, he is still hurting in all manner of ways, he is just stable and feels like everything is mellow and fine (he's probably drugged to the gills). Also keep in mind that the medkit needs to be refilled often, and that's not free.

3. Again it's a matter of nothing being explicitly stated, so it's a judgment call. I would say that if the intended mark has no idea that he is talking to the same person (calling for the appropriate Perception check to see through a disguise), then the First Impression bonus would stand. I'm all for rewarding smart runners, and disguises, when used right, are smart.

4. Sub-vocalization is silent. There are actually real world versions out there now. Essentially you train yourself to send signals to your vocal cords, without actually speaking, and the mic picks up the signals and translates them to speech. It's not your voice they'll hear on the other end of the line, but no one around you will hear a thing.

5. Tailing a car (in reality) is similar to tailing a person on foot. You keep just the right distance, match their speed, obfuscate your presence by keeping other vehicles between you and the target if possible, etc. As such, if you are trying to avoid the eyes of passengers, I would call for a Shadowing roll from the driver of the tailing vehicle.

The caveat, however, is that the driver of a vehicle by RAW always uses Sensors in the stead of his Perception skill. Sensors do include visual, but they pick up on a vehicles Signature. The judgment then comes in play again, and you can either call for an Intuition check from the driver (he knows the vehicle is there, but does he find it suspicious), or, and this is stretching it a bit, you could allow the tailing driver to modify his vehicles Signature with hits from his Shadowing check.

6. If I'm not mistaken, you're looking for Loyalty (how much a Contact likes the player), not Connection (how much a Contact can do for the player). I would say this comes down to roleplay entirely. Loyalty at build represents history with a Contact. That means time spent grooming them, and maintaining. If a player wants to increase how much a contact likes/trusts them they need to find out through roleplay (conversation directly, asking around, just observing things) what needs to be done to ingratiate themselves with a Contact. Maybe that's as simple as realizing the Contact is a vegan, and changing the venue you meet at from a McGreasy's Steak Hut to something with more options on the menu, or maybe it involves a run, or an entire series of runs. Also, if they do good for the Contact (especially a Fixer) over time, I would consider just bumping the Loyalty rating as a reward along with Karma and other things.

If you actually mean the Connection, well that is largely a behind the scenes thing and GM prerogative. The runners could conceivably do things (runs, or just make the right calls to other contacts), to help their contact move up in the world. Again, this could simply happen over time (you work with the same Johnson/Fixer, their bosses are impressed, they get promoted).


I hope this isn't too rambly, and it actually helps.

1. The target is aware that they are being Mind Probed. You could try and con your way out of it, and you might even be successful. However, the target ALSO gets a perception test with a threshold of 6-force of the spell to notice the casting itself, per SR4a p179. This may make the con significantly more difficult. EDIT: I'd already be slapping some negative modifiers on anyone who tried this, as the target of the con is likely to be suspicious as hell, and believing that he coincidentally happened to be Mind Probed JUST as the character bumped into him is a pretty thin lie.

2. per SR4a p.252, using first aid takes a number of combat turns equal to the amount of damage the character is attempting to heal. Do note the modifiers on the table on p. 253... most of the time there is a significant penalty to the roll, and you need a lot of hits to amount to much. Also, yes, a character who abuses this a lot should spend a lot on medkits, possibly (at GM's discretion) even risking addiction to some form of painkiller.

3. No page numbers, but if I think you're someone else who I'm meeting for the first time, the 'new' you gets a chance to make a first impression on me. I'd give them the bonus unless the mark sees through the disguise (assuming they haven't met the guy they're disguised as).

4. per SR4a p. 328, a user of a subvocal mic still makes noise, but it's a -4 to perception to detect it.

5. Shadowing(tailing specialization).

6. There isn't a set system in the rules for improving the connection rating of your contacts. You could look at the Shadowrun Missions adventures to see how they did it. That might help. Alternately, you could just handwave it, and use GM's discretion to determine when the contact has networked enough or gotten influential enough to justify raising his connection rating.

Thanks to both of you. Both help a lot.

Anyone else want to add some insight?

Subvocal mic is a bit of a nonissue, because trodes (50¥), or any other DNI, can give you 'telepathy'.

Trodes, replacing the need for many things.

The touch range of detection spells confuses a lot of people - you really have to dig through that section to grok how those spells work. Here's the dealie: they are cast on the magician or another subject within touch range. That's why all detection spells have T range. However, the subject has a sensory range for the new sense of Force x Magic in meters (more if it's the extended range version).

So while I agree bumping into someone, mind probing them, and trying to pass it off as a bizarre coincidence would tax even a pornomancer's ability - the mage doesn't have to DO that. He casts the spell on himself, then scans a target up to Force x Magic meters away.

Note that you choose the target, singular (a new target requires recasting the spell), when you cast the spell. They, and any other pedestrians, have the usual chance to notice the mage casting a spell (doing it in a crowd is often a bad idea - what are the odds that no one will notice it?). The target is instantly aware of the mind probing, and might respond by running (which could take them out of range) or, if they are even slightly magic-savvy, ducking into an area they know is warded. Plus, even if you get enough successes to dig into the target's subconscious, it still won't do you any good unless you know what you're looking for.

Re: Healing Physical Drain

The key thing to remember is that first aid only works on the same set of wounds once. This can be a real pain to do the bookkeeping for, but this is just the kind of situation where it becomes important – I.e. making sure he doesn't heal any drain on a first aid attempt that was present before a previous first aid attempt.

E.g.

4 physical drain incurred making 4 damage total
first aid heals 2 leaving 2 damage total
1 physical drain incurred making 3 damage total
first aid heals 2 but is capped at 1 (the new injuries) leaving 2 damage total

So although he has incurred 5 damage and rolled well enough to heal 4 of it, he is left with 2 damage (not 1)

Well, he's been downplaying just how obvious it all is (perhaps because he doesn't know..)
* The mage needs net hits on his magical perception test to get any information.
* Net hits are (raw hits - enemy's resistance with Willpower(+Counterspelling)
* Raw hits are limited by Force

Now, spellcasting is somewhat visible; everyone gets an Intuition-Perception test for which they need (6 - Force) hits to see it

So, if he wants a good chance at Mind Probe, he needs a high Force, and people are going to notice the ripples of magical force in the air around the mage.



First Aid can indeed be used against Drain, but make sure to apply all the relevant penalties from SR4A p. 253 (magicians are at -2 for First Aid!), and only every success aove the Threshold heals a damage; the whole process takes a Complex Action for each box the mage tries to heal, and you can only attempt First Aid on any injury that hasn't been treated in any manner before (such as previous First Aid). So it takes time and it's not certain that he'll succeed completely.



That's a GM call. If you think it's cheesy, just say no. It's only a 5BP quality.

The other questions were answered thoroughly by other people already.

I disagree, but i think its poorly worded



So, the caster is the subject of the spell (or someone else, apparently within LoS, as theres no range listed for targeting the subject, however, the targeto or person being probed, needs to be touched

I'd say that is an emphatic no.
The condition is that the environment is new to the character, not whether the environment knows the character.

Detection spells give their subject a magical sense, and the range of that sense is (Magic X Force) meters normally.

Exactly... The Touch Range is for the Subject voluntarily accepting the Sense, not the Target being probed...

Great work writers. Targets are subjected to the spell, while Subjects are targeted.

It's even worse with Force and the Magical Perception test you make when using the sense. I mean, I'm assuming that Force limits hits on that, but I can't find an actual quote. But otherwise what's stopping you from casting the spell at F1?

I don't know what you mean. There is no additional test. The Spellcasting test serves as perception test. The hits on Spellcasting tests are always limited by Force.

No, the original spellcasting is to bestow the sense. Then there's a "success test" using Spellcasting+Magic whenever you use the active sense - you might be rolling this test several times while using a single casting of the spell.

I can only assume that the Force of the original casting is supposed to limit that "success test" as well...

I don't see it in the rules:
Pasive detection spells are unambiguous. The spellcasting test serves as perception test.
On active detection spells there is no evidence that you use additional tests - no evidence otherwise either though.
Would you say that a magician can roll as much as he wants on a single Combat Sense spell to get as many extra dice as possible? I guess not. You do the spellcasting test and that is your perception test.
Moreover there is no action listed for using the addtiional perception action/test.

It's there, just above the part you cited:


The way I read that, to use the sense provided by an Active detection spell, you must take a Simple action to Observe in Detail with the magical sense; then you make a Magic+Spellcasting test. Now, this perception test has no Force attribute of its own, so I think it's limited by the Force of the original casting when the spell was placed on the beneficiary.


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I don't really understand why Combat Sense is an Active spell. I think that's an error; it implies that the enemies of the beneficiary get a resistance roll, which is weird. I think it should have been a passive spell.

It fits part of the definition of an active spell, in that it analyzes the data and seeks out certain information. There doesn't seem to be any applicable opposed test, though, and that should have been noted.

Hi all, been lurking for a while, but finally me first post! Wohoo!

1) Mind probe. As others have stated, Mind Probe does not require the single specified target (see spell description) to be touched, but be in LOS of the spell recipient. However, the target is aware his mind is being raped, and although he/she may not necessarily know the source of the attack, it should be simple to find out who is slinging mojo unless the spell is very low force (in which case it migh fail).

2) Overcasting. The way I see it, overrcasting is meant to be used sparingly in those cinematic if-I-don't-succeed-I-die type of moments rather than as a standard tactic. Some people have suggested CHA+WP (3) checks to avoid casting at the highest non-overcasting force as a way of restricting overcasting. Me, I use a house rule that says P damage from overcasting can be stabilized but not healed by first aid. My reasoning is that overcasting causes complex hernias and internal bleeding that would take a full surgery to treat properly.

3) First Impression. I would allow the bonus to be used a second time if the PC were disguised, but only as long as the player didn't abuse the situation.

4) Sub-vocal mike. Dealt with succinctly elsewhere.

5) Shadowing in vehicle. As stated by others before, Shadowing is the appropriate skill.

6) Raising contact's connection. Can't be done, although GM can do so at their discretion. I remember from another post someone who gave a Lone Star contact info to make busts quite regularly, and the GM rewarded him by increasing the contacts Connection when he got promoted for all his good work ...

Cheers!

Hmm, the idea of making (overcasting) Drain impossible to heal with First Aid is interesting..

This way you seriously nerf mages, and basically enforce maximum possible magic, which will make those characters even more dangerous.
Enforcing surgery is even worse than any other weapon can ever do without getting the target into overflow. Barring optional rules gunshot wounds, that did not incapacitate the target, can be "slept off". I don't think that is fair.

BTW, are you sure you mean hernias?

As I stated above the environment the character wants to fit in needs to be new. The character does not need to appear new to the environment. So disguising does not help at all, it does not hinder either though.

For example you could mask yourself as an overseas representative everyone knows and infiltrate the local office of Renraku. If you haven't been to the local Renraku office you would get the bonus just as you would entering without a disguise.

And this is why optional slow healing rules exist (although, I prefer to use both options at the same time), as well as the heavy damage optional rule

The best houserule I've seen on dumpshock for overcasting went like this:
Overcasting is Stun damage, but removes the Force/2 part of the drain equation, so that overcasting drain is just Force+/- Spell Modifier.

It means that if you're slinging force 9+ spells around, you're very likely to collapse into unconsciousness after slinging 1 or 2 of those spells around, unless you're also spending edge like mad to keep it up.
And if you're unconscious in a fight, you're as good as dead, anyway. Plus, there's overflow to consider.
There's also the problem of using two damage tracks to soak spellcasting drain: A mage with enough dice, or a way to reduce wound penalties, can just swap to overcasting if his stun track is nearly full in order to keep slinging mojo at full force.

You might consider using it. I've found it actually does wonders to make mages think about using overcasting, instead of just willy-nilly slinging spells with favorable drain codes (like stunbolt) around whenever they need to pop out a lot of damage.
Under the current system, with a magic 6 magician, a stunbolt at Force 7 is Force/2-1, so 4 physical drain. That's fairly easy to soak with a bit of luck. At force 9. which can pretty much instaKO most fighters, due to doing a minimum of 10 stun damage with one net hit, its only 5 physical drain. Assuming 2-3 net hits on drain, a mage can toss enough of those off to trivialise most encounters.
Under the houseruled system, a force 7 stunbolt is 6 drain. 9 is 8. A max-cast force 12 is 11 drain. Those numbers start to make people think 'if i botch this roll, i'm going to fill up my entire stun track with one spell and keel over.' There's also no way to force the damage to take up the other track, because drain only goes to stun. And those are with favorable drain codes.

You may want to consider using it.

Stunbolt at F7 is actually only 2 drain and at F9 is only 3.

I think that houserule will in almost all cases lead magicians to multi-cast instead overcast. So long as the split dice pool (with doubled bonuses) can still reliably succeed the drain is drastically smaller. Continuing the stunbolt case study, two F6 stunbolts for a magician with a Magic of 6 will cause two lots of 3 stun drain (6/2 - 1 + 1) with a resistance roll for each, resulting in a couple of boxes of damage at most. Compared to one resistance roll against 11 drain you're looking at more than half a damage track in difference. If you use the heavy damage rules of Augmentation (which I think should not be optional) then it's an even bigger difference.

The intended deterrent against lots of overcasting is that physical damage is a much bigger deal than stun damage. A full stun track can be slept off in a day quite easily whilst physical would take a week or more. Stun damage is also more easily alleviated if you need to keep going. Also, the end of the physical track is a lot scarier than the end of the stun track. These factors are enough for my players.