I was playing around to see how much armor you can pack onto a starting character, and what I came up with surprised me. As far as I can tell, you can build a legal starting character with 35/29 armor and no encumbrance (except for the automatic -1 penalty for using a shield). He can even have pretty solid magical defenses, mostly thanks to the Astral Hazing metagenic quality.

I wouldn't expect any GM to allow this character, but it's an interesting study in where all the bonuses come from, as a way to consider what might be worth disallowing. At the end, I'll list the detailed build. First, though, a summary of where all that armor came from -- the character has 64 combined (B + I) points of armor, which come from:

35 - SR4 core book (armor jacket, helmet, ballistic shield, dermal plating, troll natural armor)
16 - Arsenal -- new, stacking armor types (form-fitting body armor, Securetech PPP, gel packs)
13 - Runner's Companion -- gear allowed by the Restricted Gear quality (upgrade armor to SWAT, titanium bone lacing), plus the Dermal Deposits metagenic quality

Also, a character with Body 10 (troll max) should only be able to wear 40 combined points of armor without encumbrance, so there are 24 points of encumbrance reduction, either through natural armor that doesn't add to encumbrance, explicit encumbrance reduction, or ways to boost Body. Those come from:

8 - SR4 core book (dermal plating, troll natural armor)
4 - Arsenal -- form-fitting body armor
8 - Runner's Companion -- gear allowed by the Restricted Gear quality (titanium bone lacing), plus the Dermal Deposits and Metagenic Improvement (Body) qualities
4 - War! -- softweave armor

I think the biggest offenders are the stacking armor types (FFBA and PPP) from Arsenal. The Restricted Gear quality also makes a big difference, though that's an issue of frontloading character power rather than long-term power creep. Metagenic qualities and softweave armor are each minor contributors on their own, but they add up. Note that Genetic optimization, while not necessary in this build, is another cheap way to increase Body (and thus the encumbrance limit).


The build (only the parts that apply to armor rating and encumbrance):

Metatype: 40 BP (Troll)
Attributes: 65 BP (Body 11)
Qualities: 25 BP

• Restricted Gear x2 (SWAT armor, Titanium bone lacing)
• Class III Surge (Dermal Deposits, Metagenic Improvement (Body))

Resources: 15 BP

• SWAT armor + helmet (9,200¥) with Gel Packs (1,500¥) and Softweave (900¥)
• Form-fitting body armor, full suit (1,600¥)
• Securetech PPP, all pieces except helmet (900¥)
• Ballistic shield (1,500¥)
• Dermal plating 3 (15,000¥)
• Titanium bone lacing (40,000¥)

While this takes up a good chunk of the character's build, he still has 255 points left with which to round himself out -- not too bad!

Did I miss anything? Are there ways to boost starting armor even further?

One last note: A more balanced defensive build would be a Fomori mage, wearing this same gear but dropping the cyberware. You'd lose a bit of armor (-5/-5, or -2/-2 if you spend 1 point of Essence on Orthoskin 3) and gain massive magical defenses. Here, though, I was just looking at max armor.

Why do i remember dermal plating and troll natural armor not stacking, or is that orthoskin?

Get genetic optimization for Body and raise your body to 12, then you can add Quizzel mechanical fairy wings to your out-fit for +1/+1, netting you a final armor value of 36/30.
Also if you still have money and essence to burn, you can get a one or 2 cyberlimbs with 2 armor each, with 2 limbs your final armor would be 40/34, witch is quite a lot, but you have to be a Body 12 Troll to get there, while it's also possibe to get 25/24 armor for a body 4 character.

Oh, i also got to ask, why do you think a GM would disallow this build?

Heh, the only thing I would do is make the game-world-mage-density-index suddenly skyrocket .

Stunbolts >> all, anyway.

Now if you built that as a mage -if only to get counterspelling- that would not be nice.

It would have to be a Mystic Adept, as he only has 10 BP remaining for Positive Qualities.

No, the biggest offender is making encumberance dependent on body. This means if you can soak less you can afford less armour (joe average with his body 3), making you even less able to soak than Bob the big troll (body 12 - 10 +1 (excep. attribute) +1 (genetic optimising)). Again proving the retardedness of making the primary soak attribute the factor that enables fuckloads of armour. Meet Bob the troll, armoured like an MBT. That way, arour doesn't act as a sort of equalizer, giving characters who are not maxed out for soaking anyway a chance to survive being shot at with a hold-out gun, the armour instead emphathises the imbalance by being essentialy only available to those with a shitload of dice for soaking to begin with. This is pure genius.

You will want to impove your resilience against electrodamage and mental damage on Bob the troll MBT, too, though. Because right now, that's his achilles heel.

Dump the SWAT armour which is only 12/10 (or 13/11 with gel packs) and requires restricted quality.

Get a full Steampunk suit (which can be combined)-

3/3 Overcoat
2/2 Vest
1/1 Slacks
1/1 Shirt


Add Delta-amyloid 3/1 (from Arsenal) to each piece.
Next add Gel packs 1/1 to each (it'll make the suit bulky, but bulky steampunk clothes aren't really that odd).

7/5 Overcoat
6/4 Vest
5/3 Slacks
5/3 Shirt

That'll give 23/15. Plus you can still add FFA, PPP, shield and helmet.

Heavy Milspec is only 16/14, or 17/15 with gel packs. But you can't add FFA and PPP.

Just a Minor Nitpick... Delta-Amyloid is from Attitude, not Arsenal...
And then a Question...

How exactly is a person with Body 11 Wearing that (Steampunk Ensemble above) with no penalty?
As it stands... Body 11 allows 22 points per category. As it stands currently, your Encumberance is already at a -1 Reaction and Agility (with no added bonus for Softweave Armor, of course), and it will only get worse from there. With the Softweave (and a Strength of 10) and the Additional +10/+10 from Helmet, Full PPP and Full FFBA for Armor 33/25, you are still at Penalty (And at a hefty -3 at that (-1 for Ballistic of 23, and -2 for Impact of 25), but you are still penalized) This does not include the Shield at all. I don't know about you, but -3 Reaction and -3 Agility is not insignificant.

Me, I prefer not getting hit to having to soak Damage. I would have to pass up the opportunity to actively determine just how good this ensemble minimizes damage.


EDIT: Ooops, forgot to half the Encumbrance for FFBA, so you are at a Final Total of 30/22, which will indeed leave you with a Final Tally for Encumbrance of 20/22, which is no encumbrance. Still... I would have to pass on this. It has to look absolutely stupid... No Style whatsoever.

Or if defense against Impact is more important than Ballistic (say to defend against Stick n Shock rounds), use Carbon-boron (+1b +2i) instead of Delta-amyloid.

5/6 Overcoat
4/5 Vest
3/4 Slacks
3/4 Shirt

This suit will give 15/19

Doh, sorry for that.

Ohhhh, and add Gel packs to each of the pieces of PPP, the FFA, and the Quizzel wings.

Also, to optimize it slightly more, add the PPP and the wings to the FFA, so that these are part of the FFA and are thus only half encumbrance.

Nope, and Nope... *Shakes Head*

But if you are really going for broke to break things...
Add Gelpacks to Every piece of Armor that you stack on... And add the PPP to Each Piece of Armor (Suit) that you wear, so the Steampunk gets a Set, and the FFBA gets a Set...

*Sigh*

I really wasn't trying to break it. Much.

The way I see it, gelpacks just add a layer of flexible lining, which can be added to anything (sort of like bulkier Dikote). Which to me is still reasonable.

But PPP is actually a set of rigid bracers/pauldron/shin guard/ball guard. I just don't feel right stacking these even though they give the same kind if "+1" bonus.

I was just thinking this the other day. Has anyone considered making it 100% dependent on strength?

A pretty common houserule is to make it Str + Bod (instead of Bod x 2)...but I don't know if folks have talked much about making it only Strength.

I'd prefer Bod+Agi, instead of 2*bod, to nerf Bob the MBT troll a bit.

Actually, (sorry, had to do it), the gel packs in the above example, are adding at least three layers of gel lining (ice pack thickness?) to the outfit. So the character has gel packs on his shirt, on his vest covering the shirt, on his coat covering the vest. Where the shirt tucks into the pants and is covered by the vest and coat is an area I don't want to think about.

The character is already a troll. Now he's wearing 4 layers of clothing with gel-packs on. Plus PPP. Plus FFBA. Make sure when he does that B&E, he goes through the garage and avoids things like doorways. And that many layers, I hope the outfit comes with either a cooling system or olfactory blocking.

this thread raises the question, whats the highest Damage a starting character can deal in one attack? assuming we are shooting a high-armor target:

restricted gear for a 9P barrett sniper rifle, large firing modification for full auto(4 capacity), add a shock pad and gyro stabilization for recoil, fire a narrow full burst (+9 dv, -2 dice after recoil mods), aimed for a called shot (+4 dv, -4 dice), with EX-EX ammo. thats a net 23 DV with AP -5, before adding the to-hit successes. with at least 1 net success, the troll tank will be hit by 24 DV, doing physical to ballistic armor of 29 or less. So you need a 30+ ballistic armor to be 'bulletproof'. good luck soaking that stun however. and considering the dice pools a dedicated sniper can get, the net to hits will probably be more than one. it gets worse if we load APDS.

now, imagine that sniper rifle installed into a flying drone with an ammo bin, taking the shot from a kilometer away. expensive, but oh so deadly. and a good choice for HTR teams that have to deal with a heavily armed and armored troll tank.

Incorrect. The +9 from burst firing is not part of the modified DV, it's extra damage after the DV vs. Armor check. So it'd be physical against armor of 20 or less.

Hm... possibly the way to go is the MP-Laser III? 9P / -half. But you would need to have an aimed sniper shot with spotting extra-dice, tac-net etc.

Say you throw out 10 hits (maybe edged) That is straight up 23 P against half impact armor.

Oh: also don't forget to insulate, shield etc. your armor when you are at it. 30 armor is better if it is 30 armor against anything *g*.

Ahh, but is walking around in SWAT armour any more stylish? At least steampunk is designer clothing.

Besides, rule-wise, style can be fixed simply by a fashion spell.

In 2012, they come in 3 types of thickness, 3mm, 4 mm and 6 mm - http://www.d3o.com/d3o_products/sheet-plain/

In 2067, probably thinner. Or just as thick, but stronger.

Oh... and just adding: you might be able to enhance your armor with plates quickened with a "Harden" spell. (Also you can enhance your armor with the standard spell... and barriers). Which of course prompts me to say: you are a body/Strength troll: Carry your own barrier. Not just a shield, but a full fence with armored plates or something. Of course you can't fight anymore... but ah hell.

Example above has around 33/25 without factoring in bone lacing, cyberlimbs, orthoskin, mystic armour. The last one is the most troublesome because there's no hard cap. It's a lot easier to pump armour up compared to pumping up damage values.

Neither has ever been incompatible with Troll-Dermal-Plates . .
Wether you are adding more plates or toughening up the skin beneath, you always got the benefits of both . .

The really scary weapon is Ares Screech Sonic Beam Rifle. "Regular armor does not apply".

Good luck finding a GM who allows shenanigans like that

Dont you mean Ares Heavy MP Laser, MP-Laser III is only 7P / -half .
in any case Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle is a much better choise, its 9P / -half-4 and over 50% cheaper then the Heavy MP-Laser.

Having carried a crapton of combat gear (Deuce gear, Body Armor, etc) in the Corps, Body IS involved... Strength + Body would be the way to go, at least in my mind, though I really do not have that many issues with 2xBody.

I know... Steampunk is Classier than SWAT Armor, But so much less stylish than Mortimer or Zoe. *Shrug*

huh that seems slightly wrong to me...

My Troll was always partial to using the Bulkhead Door from a Navy Cruiser as a Shield...

Well, Dermal plating is incompatible with Orthoskin.

But either one is compatible with a Troll's dermal deposits and the dermal deposit metagenic quality in RC.

True that.

The steampunk line has 1 extra piece and is better for min-maxing.
Personally, I prefer Synergist. I like clean simple styles. Plus it has a Longcoat as part of it's ensemble.

This troll is an excellent candidate for a Vessel for my Possession spirits.

Looking at actual protective products, they tend to be 11mm (just under 1/2 inch thick) http://www.d3o.com/category/markets/personal-protection/
At 2 gelpacks per point of body, how thin do you expect it to be?

Or if you're a mage with the Fashion spell, choose whichever line is cheaper and then use Fashion to change it to what you want.

Those 3DO products are entirely shaped elbow and knee guards. I'm guessing they had to make it thicker so that it it can retain the formed shapes.

But in the SR4 world, the gel packs are used to cover or line an existing piece of the base armour to add an extra level of protection. I'd say it's more logical to use the 3-5mm and more flexible sheets.





Where did the 2 gelpacks per point of body rule come from?

As to how much thinner it can get in 50 years' time - in WW II, bulletproof glass was around 100mm to 120mm thick. Due to advancements in technological and materials, modern day bullet proof glass is around 20mm thick.

It is possible that these things can be made thinner than the 3mm sheets they are making now, or if not thinner, then stronger.

Does it seem like a horrible omission to anyone else that gel-packs, carbon-boron, etc. become more effective the smaller the piece of armor they are installed on? Doesn't it seem more reasonable to apply the bonus from any of the above options once to the entire armor ensemble rather than to individual pieces? Thats the way I would rule it anyway...

Why?
See here:

Cyber and Bioware Versions of stuff that do the same things have usually been incompatible or not additive at least.
But everything always was completely compatible with anything you got naturally . .

it seems wrong because, well troll skin and orthoskin seem to be the same thing, to me.

Nope, if anything, Troll Skin is the same as Dermal Armor.
Orthoskin functioned differently back then.

So, min-max and still look suave. Frightening.

Gel packs (unless I'm missing a rule) like most pieces of armor, count for encumbrance. Since the gel packs are (if I recall correctly) 1/1, than each pair of gelpacks takes 1 body worth of encumbrance.

Yeah, that's how I'd rule it also. Any armor modification that can be applied to an entire suit of armor or clothing only applies once per character, even if you're wearing your armor in 3 layers of 5 pieces each.

If you want to be literal about things, one way of supporting that interpretation is that the places that tell you to ignore the normal armor stacking rules tell you to do so for certain types of armor pieces, not those armor pieces plus their modifications. So if you're wearing an Armor Jacket with Gel Packs (8/6 + 1/1) and Form-Fitting full body suit with Gel Packs (6/2 + 1/1), you only take the highest-rated piece of armor as usual (Jacket at 9/7) and then add the FFBA per its special rule (+6/+2) but ignore its modifications, since Gel Packs don't have an exception to the "armor doesn't stack" rule.

It's a bit of a stretch, and the simplest rules interpretation does favor being able to wear 7 layers of Gel Packs, but I think this is less of a rules stretch than 7 layers of Gel Packs are as a plausibility stretch .

I'd allow the character from the OP. Then the first run would require crossing a body of water without a boat big enough to support that much weight. Of course it would mostly be stolen when they get back across.


Better yet, a troll ganger would be wearing it all and be upset the team is crossing his turf.

Rule -1, What ever you can make for your character the GM can xerox for a dozen NPCs.

So you would aprove a character concept and then then make up a contrived situation to steal away the characters stuff?
You sir are what is generally called an ass-hole-GM.

I'd be happy to sits at Bigity's table. I likes "ass-hole-GM"s. They drive away all the players I didn't want to play with.

Or maybe it was tongue-in-cheek. But I think we now know what kind of forumer you are.


I think it would be an effective way to get the point across personally. Even if it was all recovered. Then you probably don't have to worry about the same problem with a different flavor next time around.

I don't generally have a problem with stacking of things meant to be stacked, like FFBA or PPP. I would draw the line, though, at B.S. like getting mods like gel packs to piecemeal armor, or trying to stack multiple suits of FFBA.