Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Poison Based Characters
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Hound
So I've been thinking about making a character who's main fighting style is gonna involve some kind of poisoned cyberware blades. Or something. However, as cool as that sounds, the poison rules seem like a pain in the ass, and honestly it seems like combat's gonna be over before the poison has a significant effect. Am I wrong? Are there some ways to make it more effective? Creative uses I am unaware of? Just curious what kind of devious monstrosities Dumpshockers have thought of involving poison.
Udoshi
Some poison is more effective than others. Where it IS nice is when you can catch people without the ability to defend against it.

If you're interested in using it, you're going to want both Arsenal(drug section, slap patches, DMSO, splash grenades) and Augmentation.(cyber glands, and bioware chemical glands to make toxins and breath them at people, nanites to counteract toxins).

I played on a nonlethal team, and slap patches were a staple of ours for downing people.

Poison in general is more effective against low-pass opposition. As written, taking effect at the end of a combat turn kind of sucks. If you're interested in using poison, the best way is to ask your GM about it. And be like 'look, if i stab a bunch of poison into someone, can we roll for effect immediately?). Our gm took a bit more of a hollywoodish approach to things, and, basically, if we got surprise on someone and managed to drug them unconscious, they'd just kind of slump over, instead of taking a bunch of passes and THEN abruptly stopping at the end of the turn.

If you were going to do this, I'd actually strongly suggest doing this with a Mystic Adept or Magician. Someone who can cast Decrease Reflexes(street magic 169) on people, while punching or slapping them. (you can deliver Touch spells as unarmed attacks). Landing this combo would make a target unable to do anything before the poison kicked in, if they've gone already. Or able to do very little with only 1 action left.


A concept that i've always considered was to make someone with all the toxin/poison/vector resistant ware. ALL of it, and just use neurostun gas grenades instead of smoke grenades out of habit. Force other people to fight in them while I'm fairly immune.
Hound
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 10 2011, 04:28 PM) *
Some poison is more effective than others. Where it IS nice is when you can catch people without the ability to defend against it.

If you're interested in using it, you're going to want both Arsenal(drug section, slap patches, DMSO, splash grenades) and Augmentation.(cyber glands, and bioware chemical glands to make toxins and breath them at people).

I played on a nonlethal team, and slap patches were a staple of ours for downing people.

Poison in general is more effective against low-pass opposition. As written, taking effect at the end of a combat turn kind of sucks. If you're interested in using poison, the best way is to ask your GM about it. And be like 'look, if i stab a bunch of poison into someone, can we roll for effect immediately?)

If you were going to do this, I'd actually strongly suggest doing this with a Mystic Adept or Magician. Someone who can cast Decrease Reflexes(street magic 169) on people, while punching or slapping them. (you can deliver Touch spells as unarmed attacks). Landing this combo would make a target unable to do anything before the poison kicked in, if they've gone already. Or able to do very little with only 1 action left.


hm the magician thing is a good idea, but the problem is that I have a strong tendency towards adepts/magicians, and I was hoping to get away from that with this guy. My GM probably would be open to that sort of negotiation though, especially cause it's unlikely I'll get that overpowered as a melee guy delivering poison. I mean, compared to the gun bunnies in my group that is. Thanks for the response!
ggodo
judging from the ones in SRA most toxins and 1 combat turn, leading me to believe that they're pretty useful. Seven -7 sounds like death in a box. The arsenal ones are mostly immediate, and all of them will take their effect in addition to any damage your spurs do. I think poison-man could do serious harm, but he'd have to pay moneys for more poison.
Udoshi
Poison and drugs are fantastic, and actually pretty complex when you get to looking at the rules for them.

there's a lot of ways to change the vector of toxins(dmso, splash grenades), or even manufacture them easily. I like pairing chemical and drug glands together - chem glands make the toxin, drug glands store extra doses for it. Second hand chemglands are also great price/essence deals.

The problem is that there's a lot of crossbook referencing to get it done. I think even street magic has some extra magical compounds, even before qualities like natural immunity or natural venom.
Yerameyahu
They are kind of dickish, though, and (when set up properly) pretty cheesy. smile.gif *shrug*
Hound
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 10 2011, 04:33 PM) *
judging from the ones in SRA most toxins and 1 combat turn, leading me to believe that they're pretty useful. Seven -7 sounds like death in a box. The arsenal ones are mostly immediate, and all of them will take their effect in addition to any damage your spurs do. I think poison-man could do serious harm, but he'd have to pay moneys for more poison.

Yeah it does seem pretty dangerous, though if I remember correctly it's like 20F+ or something... I didn't realize the Arsenal ones have a lot of immediates though, that'll be useful as I prefer to avoid bending the rules when I can. I'm okay with paying moneys for poison, especially cause he might end up being the group's hacker as well, which would put him in a good position for brewing his own stuff (cause I give my hackers high logic, even though it doesn't actually help them...) Thanks!


QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 10 2011, 04:39 PM) *
Poison and drugs are fantastic, and actually pretty complex when you get to looking at the rules for them.

there's a lot of ways to change the vector of toxins(dmso, splash grenades), or even manufacture them easily. I like pairing chemical and drug glands together - chem glands make the toxin, drug glands store extra doses for it. Second hand chemglands are also great price/essence deals.

The problem is that there's a lot of crossbook referencing to get it done. I think even street magic has some extra magical compounds, even before qualities like natural immunity or natural venom.

this is actually the part I'm not into. I like having lots of options, but it seems like poison is kinda complicated, I dunno I guess I'll just have to read it some more and work with it. I'll look into that combo though smile.gif Thanks.


QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 10 2011, 04:43 PM) *
They are kind of dickish, though, and (when set up properly) pretty cheesy. smile.gif *shrug*


Dickish and cheesy? Sounds awesome to me, just sayin.
Neko Asakami
Be sure to check out Running Wild for more natural poisons. I know from experience that the Enyelebenye Venom (pg 131, also in Arsenal) is a lot more useful than you'd think.
Hound
QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 10 2011, 05:46 PM) *
Be sure to check out Running Wild for more natural poisons. I know from experience that the Enyelebenye Venom (pg 131, also in Arsenal) is a lot more useful than you'd think.


it's funny cause I was just considering the possibility of having him own some kind of venomous animal that he regularly harvests... thanks nyahnyah.gif
UmaroVI
Gamma-Scopalamine is a pretty good "go-to" drug for combat. Mix it with DMSO and put it in capsule rounds, and at the end of the combat turn, most people get paralyzed unless they are outright immune.

It's not a good idea to rely on this as your only combat option because there are a variety of ways to be out-and-out immune to all toxins, and because sometimes "end of the combat turn" is "about a second after we all die."

The way I would suggest making a poison user is to use Automatics (SMGs), using a Ares Executive Protector (for when you need subtlety) and an Ingram SuperMach (for when you don't), and carry around Gamma-Scopalamine/DMSO Capsule Rounds, Stick-and-Shock, and APDS (for drones and vehicles) in both. With capsule rounds, one net hit is good enough, so wide bursting is the way to go.

Gamma-Scopalamine/DMSO Chem Grenades are also quite good for similar reasons, although in order to be effective you need to be using a grenade launcher so you can airburst link (or the hilarious strategy of wearing chemically sealed armor and carrying grenades that have been modified to have no delay and to not check how far they've gone).
Squinky
I had a character concept I cheesily called "Agent Orange". He wore chemical sealed gear as above, and was all about tagging people with messed up chemicals.

I was really into the concept, then I worried that once I introduced chemical warfare to the gaming table, my gm would reciprocate smile.gif.
Ascalaphus
What about getting the genetech to be immunized against your poisons of choice?


I just have this thing for ground-zero fireball* mages. And I guess it translates to poison splash grenades smile.gif



* In SR: Elf Black Mage with Slaughter Humans
The Jopp
A small...odd question...

Is it medically possible to have the following.

Chemical Gland: Internal Release - DMSO
Chemical Gland: Internal Release - natural Venom
Changeling Ability: Natural Venom (same as Chemical Gland) - This include natural immunity.

What would be the effect of having DMSO inside your body? Would it make natural non-contact vector venoms into contact vector venoms?
Yerameyahu
Well, no.

Starters, DMSO isn't a valid Chem Gland substance.

Even so, I'm honestly not sure what having DMSO in your bloodstream would do, either to you or to targets. How are you getting either chemical out of your blood and into your targets anyway? I can see ruling that DMSO+Venom blood would be a contact venom, but… what are you going to do, bleed on me? wink.gif

Maybe SURGE: Horned Lizard Eyes? biggrin.gif I think that counts as the 'spit' option, more or less, not Internal Release; the Natural Venom quality gives you Spit, after all.
Irion
If you use venom you need to play a bit different.
There is no need to shoot someone three times if the first poisoned shot is killing him anyway.

Take to shots at two different guys and than go to full defance and drop behind cover. (This is more of a team tactic option anyway)

Now the only effectiv thing they might do is throw a granade. And after one combat turn two of them go down.
Now you just repeat shooting two of them....

This should work pritty nice with an adept with combat reflexes and increased ability gymnastic dodge...
Having a pool for doding bullets around 20 dices will help a lot. (Considering the other factors like cover, target(you) not visible(behind cover) and all the other vision modifiers..)
The Jopp
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 17 2011, 05:06 PM) *
ů what are you going to do, bleed on me? wink.gif


Actually, yes.

With the combination above (DMSO excluded) the characters blood is poisonous, in fact, all the characters bodily fluids contain the poison.

Retractable claws
Spit
Sweat
A kiss
Spurs
other bodily fluids...

All of the above would be a vector for the poison which comes with the drawback that an accidental touch could (with naga poison) blind someone apart from almost killing them - so be careful.
Yerameyahu
That's kind of my point. Blood is a bad vector, and I don't buy 'sweat'. Probably not spit, either, because spit is a separate option. Why would there be a spit option if Internal Release already did it? Cheating. Same for spurs/claws: there's a separate option for that. By RAW, after all, Internal Release just doses you (pretty uselessly, to be honest; there aren't many valid Chem Gland drugs for that).

So, you're left with *bleeding* on people. Enjoy that.
Sir_Psycho
Some sealed gloves and dmso washed throwing knives, you can take cover and take other actions (eg. AR) while you wait for the chem to take effect. It makes a lot of low power weapons deadly instantly or in a turn. Have they removed the ability to call shots past armour since SR3?
Yerameyahu
No, but it's pretty hard to succeed at.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 18 2011, 12:17 AM) *
That's kind of my point. Blood is a bad vector, and I don't buy 'sweat'. Probably not spit, either, because spit is a separate option. Why would there be a spit option if Internal Release already did it? Cheating. Same for spurs/claws: there's a separate option for that. By RAW, after all, Internal Release just doses you (pretty uselessly, to be honest; there aren't many valid Chem Gland drugs for that).

So, you're left with *bleeding* on people. Enjoy that.

You should see some hepatitic or HIV-positive psychiatric patients in action, some of them use exactly that tactic.
Blood in spit, under fingernails and whatnot is still blood. Getting it there is a matter of hurting yourself: bite your lip, the inside of your cheek, or just cratch that scab from your last gunshot wound open. Or your skin itself. *shrug*

Not too viable a combat tactic, but it's a definite trick for the dirty fighting melee man.
Yerameyahu
Yes. Not impossible, but not convenient. Especially in armor, etc.
Irion
You still need the blood in the other persons bloodstream or at least at the skin. Thats not that easy.
And the dose might just be not enough.

A normal human arm got itself hairs and the acid barrier of the skin, followed by the actual skin to protect itself from beeing poisoned.
If you get hit by a splash of a gel bullet, it won't do much good.
But try to spit on your arm move it around a bit a watch how much is on your skin and how much is somewhere else.

The usefullness is limited, but yes it is a "dirty option" under special circumstances.
The Jopp
The problem also arise from the fact that there is no clear description on how much is a "dose" - Especially when we come to the very very very poisonous animals.

See this link: The Worlds 10 Most Poisonous Animals

Now, look at number 9 - Poison Dart Frog. 2 micrograms is enought to kill an adult human.

So we have a person with a naturally occuring poison within his/her body and since the character has complete immunity against it they could also have it circulating within their own bloodstream. For lulz we could also add Greasy Skin and Defensive Secretion for the character.

What would ideed constitute a dose in those circumstances.

Perhaps one should do some rough calculation dependant on BOD?

Target BOD / Toxin Strength (Round Up)= Needed Dose.

Example: BOD 3 Human VS Toxin Strength 8: 3/8= 38% of normal dose

or:

Target BOD = Toxin: Normal Toxin Strength
Target BOD > Toxin: Double Toxin Strength
Target BOD < Toxin: Halved Toxin Strength
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Hey, that's easy. A Dose is... exactly one Dose. It is an abstraction, nothing more. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Except, again, it requires a house rule to form a connection between Internal Release and Defensive Secretion/anything else. RAW, no. Which is why you could just use the built-in 'spit' option… the one you're getting for free from the Natural Venom quality anyway. Internal Release is just a nonfunctional, bad choice.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 18 2011, 09:30 AM) *
You still need the blood in the other persons bloodstream or at least at the skin. Thats not that easy.

Just physiologically speaking, getting something in your eyes is not far from being as effective as having it IV-injected.
The Jopp's question here however, is to mix the poison with DMSO, which makes it Contact vector, thus making 'getting it in the bloodstream' a non-issue. Contact is enough.
Achsin
I'm reminded of a contractor from Darker Than Black whose power was to make his blood explode. Now I'm going to try to get a Chem Gland set up with a binary liquid explosive past my gm... I wonder how I could work that out...
The Jopp
QUOTE (Achsin @ Jul 18 2011, 05:48 PM) *
I'm reminded of a contractor from Darker Than Black whose power was to make his blood explode. Now I'm going to try to get a Chem Gland set up with a binary liquid explosive past my gm... I wonder how I could work that out...


Well, Nitroglycering is a component used in medicine for heart diseases so you could just have a slightly more overactive gland...with a spit function so that you can receive your medication orally - just dont hickup...
Yerameyahu
Except, again, you don't have DMSO in your blood. Not from a gland, anyway; maybe an autoinjector. (And, of course, assuming DMSO in your bloodstream does anything at all, doesn't hurt you, and does *that* specifically.)
Manunancy
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 18 2011, 08:08 PM) *
Well, Nitroglycering is a component used in medicine for heart diseases so you could just have a slightly more overactive gland...with a spit function so that you can receive your medication orally - just dont hickup...


That doesn't strike me as a good idea - even if you can synthetize it in a live organism (usual method involves highly concentrated nitric acid), spitting it at someone isn't likely to produce enough of shock to make it explode. But getting punched in the face or eating dirt may lead to very unfortunate results. Nitroglycerin is a rather touchy stuff.

Binary explosives would be somewhat safer, but you'll need two glands and some way to properly mix the ingredients. The most likely option would to to chew-and-spit, which lead to the same sort of risks. Though at least there your head won't explode unless you're preparing a mouthfull to spit it when you get hit.

Mardrax
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 18 2011, 08:20 PM) *
Except, again, you don't have DMSO in your blood. Not from a gland, anyway; maybe an autoinjector. (And, of course, assuming DMSO in your bloodstream does anything at all, doesn't hurt you, and does *that* specifically.)

Seen as DMSO seems to increase permeability of soft tissue enough to make anything a Touch vector, I'd hate to have the stuff running through my veins, seen as most of the bodily functions depend on varying permeability of the vein walls. See how happy you are when your renal system tosses everything out, not just the stuff it's meant to.
Yerameyahu
For serious, Mardrax. I feel like it's just *begging* for problems, creatively horrific ones. And again, there's no RAW for 'DMSO in the bloodstream', so it technically does nothing.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2011, 12:01 PM) *
For serious, Mardrax. I feel like it's just *begging* for problems, creatively horrific ones. And again, there's no RAW for 'DMSO in the bloodstream', so it technically does nothing.


Assuming it allows permeability upon the user, ANYTHING harmful, from any vector, is going to penetrate and affect the character. I would hate that personally. wobble.gif
Mardrax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2011, 10:53 PM) *
Assuming it allows permeability upon the user, ANYTHING harmful, from any vector, is going to penetrate and affect the character. I would hate that personally. wobble.gif

It's more the thing about say, cell walls becoming completely permeable and have the in- and outside even out. Making nerves fire all the time, not to mention the heat failing as it's trying to pump blood while it's basically a sponge. The results, really, should not be pretty.
Hound
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jul 19 2011, 07:49 PM) *
It's more the thing about say, cell walls becoming completely permeable and have the in- and outside even out. Making nerves fire all the time, not to mention the heat failing as it's trying to pump blood while it's basically a sponge. The results, really, should not be pretty.

man so maybe just straight up injecting DMSO should be a poison attack...

Where is DMSO btw, like in the books? I haven't seen anything about it, but people talk about it all the time here. I am incompetent(perception) though, so it's not that surprising really.
Yerameyahu
Arsenal. But yeah, by RAW DMSO doesn't do anything (alone), so it wouldn't be a toxin.
Hound
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2011, 09:24 PM) *
Arsenal. But yeah, by RAW DMSO doesn't do anything (alone), so it wouldn't be a toxin.

oh I see. Ah well, thanks smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Hehe. It's just that you can't have your cake and eat it too. smile.gif If you try to cheat using DMSO, *then* it's a toxin (maybe).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jul 19 2011, 06:49 PM) *
It's more the thing about say, cell walls becoming completely permeable and have the in- and outside even out. Making nerves fire all the time, not to mention the heat failing as it's trying to pump blood while it's basically a sponge. The results, really, should not be pretty.


Yep... Nasty is only the beginning of the equation.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 20 2011, 05:12 AM) *
Yep... Nasty is only the beginning of the equation.

I'm envisioning blood gently seeping out of pores here, moving on to scenes reminiscent of that scene where the nazis opened up the ark of the covenant.

I rather like this image, as applied to SR. It's Turn to Goo, ferrealz!
Manunancy
QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 20 2011, 04:15 AM) *
man so maybe just straight up injecting DMSO should be a poison attack...

Where is DMSO btw, like in the books? I haven't seen anything about it, but people talk about it all the time here. I am incompetent(perception) though, so it's not that surprising really.


It's a matter of dosage and concentration : in it's offensive declination you have something like a few cc of nearly pure DMSO splashed on the skin. Which translates as a rather low dose when mixed with 5 liters of blood (and even less once it's dispersed into 70 kgs of metahuman).

To achieve an usefull dosage in your own blood, you're going to need about on thousand times the dosage - that's a very different kettle of fish. With a one-thousand times the regular dose crammed into your body, just about anything turns lethal.
Daishi
QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 10 2011, 03:20 PM) *
So I've been thinking about making a character who's main fighting style is gonna involve some kind of poisoned cyberware blades.

When I was looking at this option for a character, I settled on cyanide as the best choice for coating spurs. It's a Power 8 Injection attack with Immediate effect. Injection attacks bypass external chemical protection and armor (which contact toxins can't), so the target only gets bloodstream relevant protection. Because of the lethality and speed of combat, it's entirely possible the target won't make it to the end of the combat turn, so the cyanide is more for insurance than for primary damage potential. Cyanide is also relatively easy to get (compared to say Seven-7 or Ringu) and can be effectively countered by the right nanotech or genetech (a wise safety precaution when carrying around sacs of toxins inside one's body).

Right now, the most commonly used toxin in our game is actually Breathtaker delivered by air-burst grenades. It's a little too slow for knocking guys down in combat, but it does wonders for neutralizing large numbers of unprepared mooks or bystanders. The Breathlessness effect will incapacitate almost anyone who is exposed to it, but it's countered by a simple gas mask so the PCs can be easily prepared to walk through it. Even if the opposition has gas masks or chem seals, it's worth checking to see if they've had a chance to activate those. Just remember to toss an asthma inhaler into the med kit just in case.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jul 20 2011, 07:13 AM) *
It's a matter of dosage and concentration : in it's offensive declination you have something like a few cc of nearly pure DMSO splashed on the skin. Which translates as a rather low dose when mixed with 5 liters of blood (and even less once it's dispersed into 70 kgs of metahuman).

To achieve an usefull dosage in your own blood, you're going to need about on thousand times the dosage - that's a very different kettle of fish. With a one-thousand times the regular dose crammed into your body, just about anything turns lethal.

To achieve the Raiders-scene, yeah. To achieve localised internal damage, no. nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
On that note, feel free to consult reality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide Safety is at the bottom, though I'm fascinated by the lede: it rapidly moves from entry site to the tongue, where you taste garlic. ůSo shadowrunners can *know* they've just been dosed! How cool is that?
Manunancy
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jul 20 2011, 03:21 PM) *
To achieve the Raiders-scene, yeah. To achieve localised internal damage, no. nyahnyah.gif


I'm not sure of what you're meaning so i'll assume you're speaking about the effect on the idiot loading is blood with DMSO. IF you want to achive an effect on target somewhat on par with what you'd get from a squirt gun, it means the blood you're spitting (or whatever) must hold an amount of DMSO per volume on par with what's loaded in squirt gun.

At that point you're likely to have something wore than localized internal damage for the user - massive internal hemmorageing, mutiple organs failure and the like. Sure it's not turning you into goo, but it's likely to make your innards a sorry mess (though maybe a nice and juicy snack for a spider spirit if he can handle the DMSO)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 20 2011, 06:45 AM) *
On that note, feel free to consult reality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide Safety is at the bottom, though I'm fascinated by the lede: it rapidly moves from entry site to the tongue, where you taste garlic. ůSo shadowrunners can *know* they've just been dosed! How cool is that?


Pretty Damn Cool, In my opinion... smile.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jul 20 2011, 06:34 PM) *
(though maybe a nice and juicy snack for a spider spirit if he can handle the DMSO)


Why do I get this image of a spider shaman ghoul with immunity to DMSO (if possible) who likes to slurp up his victims... spin.gif
Minimax le Rouge
hello,
if you want to sweat a toxin, you can uses a cybergland.

and DMSO isn't dangerous at low dosage, it's used in medical treatments.
But when you use a large amount, you must wear a chemical suit (and this is a pain in the *** when making the dish with DMSO, after a chemical production), almost everything can be combined with DMSO : toxins, bacteria, virus, poisons, whatever, and all this will end in your bloodstream.

I wouldn't be the guy with a DMSO internal release chemical gland...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 20 2011, 12:48 PM) *
Why do I get this image of a spider shaman ghoul with immunity to DMSO (if possible) who likes to slurp up his victims... spin.gif


Because your mind produces some pretty disturbing Images? smile.gif
Traul
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jul 18 2011, 07:51 PM) *
That doesn't strike me as a good idea - even if you can synthetize it in a live organism (usual method involves highly concentrated nitric acid), spitting it at someone isn't likely to produce enough of shock to make it explode. But getting punched in the face or eating dirt may lead to very unfortunate results. Nitroglycerin is a rather touchy stuff

Not to mention the awkward moments in bed...

"Sorry, honey, can't do that: too shaky."
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012