I've got pcs that want themselves and their vehicles to be undentable. With this in mind they layer on 8/8 or more in personal armor and ridiculously high amounts of vehicle armor on their trucks and drones (6 - 10 points hardened).

Is there any effective limit to what they can put on at chargen?

Also, if I remember correctly, the extra weight associated with adding armor makes handling tests more difficult. Is this correct, and what does it do exactly?

I don't have R3.5 so I'm not exactly sure but I think in R3 there were rules under the customizations how armor affected handling. I do know that the Cargo and Load restrict how much armor you can have.
As far as people look in the main book under the equipment section as I remember most of the rules for personal armor being there.
Third thing, Load up the opposition with APDS rnds "Where's your armor now!!"

Every 6 points of Vehicle Armor (or part thereof) adds 1 to the Handling ratings of a vehicle. R3, p. 131 under Armor (Vehicle). Nothing serious, really.

Just remember that Grand Dragon ATGMs are dirt cheap and easy to get for anyone who really needs one. And against people with heavy armor but not that special Body, just use shotguns.

Curious: How did they get 8/8 armor on themselves without problems with the Quickness cap? Or are they all sammies/physads with extremely high QUIs?

Vehicle armor is indeed really fricken heavy, though, which should definitely be kept in mind. (Body^2) x 5 kilograms makes armoring trucks slightly problematic at times.

sidartha: Thanks, I hadn't thought about checking load ratings (doh!)

As far as the personal armor goes, I'll let them do that, and mainly punish it as a social issue ("I'm sorry sir, you can't come in like that. Would you mind visiting the coat check girl?")

APDS rounds wouldn't fit in for the recent runs (swarms of bug spirits), but they might come in handy later.

Still, could I see the numbers? Just comparing to the numbers you usually see in the Armor Min/Max threads that seems a bit much. So either I'm missing out on some minmax goodness, or there might be a flaw somewhere.

You can also interpret the body armor rules in SR3 so that you only get protection from the 2 pieces of armor with highest ratings. Many do.

But thats only ballistic no? still a point mind.

So it seems, Ballistic only. Achieving 8 will require the total Ballistic rating for this purpose to be higher than 6, however, assuming there are more than 2 pieces of armor (which is probably the case, because I'm not aware of any legal canon armor with a Ballistic rating of 6).

Which is a non-issue if you limit it to the 2 highest ratings.

I'm pretty sure armor is no different -- you always round down, so you have to beat Quickness by two points to get the penalty, not one.

In any case, since vehicle armor comes in ratings, you can apply the "max rating of 6" that all starting characters have to abide by. And they can only do it as a customization to a vehicle (designing a vehicle is technically a GM-only function in Rigger 3), so they have to make sure the vehicle has the available CF and Load for the armor. If they're not using Concealed Armor, they're also going to run into a lot of problems with the law if they go anywhere outside the Barrens. Who knew Lone Star would have a problem with an obviously heavily armored van rolling around Downtown?

And as others pointed out, a single Great Dragon ATGM will take down most heavily armored civilian vehicles. 20D Anti-Vehicular rockets tend to do that.

Great Dragons actually take down any and all vehicles they can hit, except perhaps the tanks in SOTA (don't have that book). Those things practically laugh at any armor of less than rating 20.

The QUI penalty for layering armor is calculated by adding together the total Ballistic ratings of all worn armor and comparing that to the char's QUI. For each point the total exceeds QUI, you get +1 on tests and all the other penalties. There's no division there, so even a single point above QUI gives you a penalty of 1.

Unless there's errata that I'm unaware of, it's every 2 points it exceeds Quickness as per page 285 of Shadowrun 3rd Edition for the Combat Pool penalty, which is what I was meaning to point out. Sorry for not making that more clear.

And yeah, it will take out most vehicles. But military/police vehicles can more easily be bumped up to Armor 20 if they really need to, including Ares Roadmasters.

Well, to be exact, you'd need an armor rating of 30 to make a real difference. 6D or above and a vehicle is pretty screwed DamRes-wise.

For the CP penalty, it is indeed per 2 points. You add up those parts of Ballistic and Impact ratings that exceed the char's QUI, divide it by two rounding down and reduce that from CP. Ball9/Imp7/QUI6 leads to a 2-point penalty in CP, as per the 10th corrected printing.

There are two different penalties here. One is sum of Ballistic vs. Quickness to determine penalties to Quickness and Quickness-linked skills. Every 1 point counts here. The other is the penalty to Combat Pool, every 2 full points of Ballistic AND Impact count there.

The characters only get benefit from the two pieces of armor with the highest Ballistic Rating (and only half benefit from one), and the two pieces of armor with the highest Impact Rating (again, only half benefit from one). Plus they add helmets and forearm guards and shields at full value. However they get penalties from all pieces of armor, at full value, with the exception of FFBA or other things that have special rules. Helmets and forearm guards do count at full value for determining penalties.

It's very hard for someone to have 8/8 armor, without also having lots of penalties AND looking like something that everyone should run away from screaming the "North Hollywood Bank Robbers are here!"

Apathy, can you describe how they get the 8/8 armor?

As far as the Vehicle armor goes, at some point they start to look like those old Armored Cars that would stop at banks and Jewelry stores. Luckily those went away when we shifted to electronic currency.

Armor rating 30? How do you figure? Armor rating 20 or 21 (depending on how you want to read the rules) makes it completely immune to Great Dragon ATGMs. That's the perk of hardened armor. Anti-vehicular ammo doesn't change the fact that you still have to beat the Armor Rating to affect it, which is why loading up a Light Pistol with AV ammo isn't going to do you a lick of good on a vehcile with Armor 6.

Or is there (again) something I'm missing?

Holy crap, really? I never thought of it like that.

Well, as they say: Not In My Game.

Due to Shockwave's change to his post, my post is unneeded, and is hereby removed.

Well, so is this.

Due to Shockwave's change to his post, my post is unneeded.

And this one too.

Ah, in that case I guess it does require at least Armor 40-41 to stop a Great Dragon. Weird. I could have sworn that the entire point of AV ammo was that it didn't get manipulated by the fact that you were using it against a vehicle, unlike regular ammo. Stupid overcomplicated rules and piss-poor memory.

8/8 Armour:

Armour Jacket (5/3)
Armour Vest with plates (4/3)
Hard Hat (0/1)
Titanium Bone Lacing (1/1)
Dermal Sheath 3 (0/2)

For a total of 8/8. Okay you'd look like an idiot with a hard hat on, but you guys just wanted to know how to get 8/8. There's one way to do it then, there are plenty of others.

Obviously you need a pretty high quickness to get 8/8 without penalty.

Or you could go for..

Winterised Coverall (4/4)
FFBA 3 (4/1)
Hard Hat (0/1)
Titanium Bone Lacing (1/1)
Orthoskin 3 (1/2)

For 8/8 and minimal quickness, but you'd still look like a tit..


[Edit] If you can't take cyber/bioware, replace it with a Large Riot Shield (2/3) and lots of quickness. Again, see above about not looking so great while doing so though.

Actually, 8B is not that hard to get to, even if it is a little cheesy.

Armored Jacket (5/3) + FFBA (4/1) = 7/3. Then toss in Orthoskin lv 2 (+1B/+1I) or Titanium Bone Lacing (+1B/+1I). Throw in both of those mods, and you get 9/5 with no penalties for Qck of 5 or greater. I don't know if it says this in the book, but I would assume that the bonus ballistic points you get from Orthoskin and Bone lace do NOT count against your total ballistic rating for quickness penalties.

I'd appreciate it if you guys out there could check my math and mechanics, but I think I'm dead on.

I always thought you got a minimum of 1 pt off of a second layer (assuming it had a value to start with)

Yea 8/8 is no huge problem for a sam, but the original poster said his entire group had 8/8 or higher. I suppose they could all be using armor spells and sustaining foci and cyber and bioware.

Also an obviously armored vehicle is going to attract a lot of attention. The concealed armor is quite a bit harder to install (lots of CF I think).

If you're aiming for pointlessly high armor and your GM says only 2 layers, mosey on over to the cyberlimbs and armor section(Body plating). After the cost of the limb, 2.5 ECU and 12,500 equals +1 armor of your choice. An armored jacket, FFBA, and a synthetic cyberleg can get you up to 7/7. Go obvious and you can add 4 more points where you want it, taking you to 9/9 without breaking a sweat.

Cyberarmor ballistic bonuses count for the purposes of calculating quickness penalties, but cyberarmor is 'cumulative', meaning they just get added on top like shields. It's not impossible to get your impact to 30+ with the help of an excessive amount of impact cybearmor, although what you'd NEED that much impact for is something else entirely. Maybe if you're on a bomb squad.

I encourage people to point out flaws in my rules-fu. Pertinent pages are 35-36 M&M.

haven't you got to divid your cyber armour total by 5 or something to get an average?

FFBA? What is this, and how does one get such munchkin-ness?

It's actually called Combat Underwear in my game.

So whats the take on and Armor Jacket and a sustained Armor spell (Force6)?
The mage in question also sustains a levitate spell btw

I think it's every 6 points, rounded down, not up. As for the Grand Dragons, does anyone else think that missile was invented by the KKK?

The character does glow, with the Armor spell. If sustained, Lonestar may notice and ask for evidence of a permit for such a powerful spell.

Yeah Im gonna have to start pulling out the "social" sideeffects of my players gearing this heavy up.
The oldest player in my group has heavy sec armor (from before max rating was spotted by me) get the sam to 8/8 (ish?) with dermal3 and body6 hes a pretty tough nut(t) to crack also.

Ive been going pretty easy on them with regards to the Star, I think they'll have to show up abit earlier now than just when combat is over 3 mins ago

Physical Armor can be pretty concealable, but since the armor spell make sa crackling field of energy around th eperson full time, ill give them credit for either being brave or stupid for keeping it up the whole time.

Social side effects? Try legal. You walk down the street in sec armor you better have a good lawyer cause your hoop is going to jail. If these guys are walking around in broad daylight like this, have them arrested. Have their car seized, their guns seized, have everything attached to the credstick they are carrying seized. The heavy armor comes on only, and I stress the only, before the actual run. Now sometimes that's unavoidable, you need extra protections, great. Get a secure jacket, some armored underwear and you got yourself 6 points, and the man won't be pulling you over.

So just to summarise - apply teh penalties appropriately. I believe FFBA only aplies to one aspect (either the CP penalty or Quickness penalty, can't remember which way round). Also a full body suit of FFBA includes a hood - and I would argue that if this isn't worn then it isn't a full suit!

Also remember that when calculating the CP and Quickness penalties it is the total armour ratings that count (not the final effective B/I ratings, i.e. a 5/3 jacket layered with a 4/3 lined coat gives 7/4, but for purposes of determining CP and Quickness penalties the total ratings are 9 and 6.

Combat Pool Loss (applicable for any armour, even if not layered):
[(Total Ballistic ratings – Quickness) + (Total Impact ratings – Quickness)] / 2 (rd)

Quickness penalties (only applicable when layering):
Skills TN Modifier: + (Total layered Ballistic ratings – Quickness)
Quickness Reduction for Movement: – (Total layered Ballistic ratings – Quickness)

E.g. Blaze has a Quickness of 3 and she pulls on an Armour Jacket (Ballistic 5, Impact 3), her Combat Pool is immediately reduced by 1 ((5 - 3) + (3 - 3) = 2 = -1 die). She now dons a Helmet (Ballistic +1, Impact +2). This does not count as layering armour as the helmet is explicitly additive, however her total Ballistic and Impact ratings are now 6 and 5 respectively reducing her Combat Pool by a total of 2 dice ((6 - 3) + (5 - 3) = 5 = -2 dice).

Blaze slips on an Armour Vest (Ballistic 2, Impact 1), beneath the Armour Jacket. The layered armour ratings are now 6 / 3 without the helmet (5 + (2 / 2) = 6, 3 + (1 / 2 rd) = 3). With the helmet the ratings are 7 / 5. However the layered armour reduces Blaze's Quickness by 4 (5 + 2 - 3) meaning she cannot move! All Quickness tests and Quickness linked Skill tests suffer a +4 TN. Blaze's Combat Pool is also reduced further to -4 dice ((8 - 3) + (6 - 3) = 8 = -4 dice).

hey toturi, who is your resident decker? fastjack? decking the feds is deathwish, atleast if you want to get into the part that controls the issuing of ID's!

the diplomatic immunity stunt may work tho, but make sure to switch who you claim to work for now and again as those contrys can either tell the star that the papers you have are fake or that they no longer apply...

Exactly what TheScamp said. The best verification is to read through the 4 paragraphs of text on p. 285 of SR3 under the headline "Armor and Combat Pool".