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ggodo
So, I'm making a pure adept unarmed combat specialist and I'm noticing that his dice pool has topped out at 14 for the actual hitting of things. AGI 5 + Skill 6 + Imp. Ability 3. Short of rejiggering his attributes, what can I stuff in him to make him more likely to hit? I want to take advantage of called shot for flavorish purposes, creating a fighter that specializes in hitting the vital parts to incapacitate his foes as fast as possible. I put for to you, how I hit better?
Korwin
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 19 2011, 06:59 AM) *
So, I'm making a pure adept unarmed combat specialist and I'm noticing that his dice pool has topped out at 14 for the actual hitting of things. AGI 5 + Skill 6 + Imp. Ability 3. Short of rejiggering his attributes, what can I stuff in him to make him more likely to hit? I want to take advantage of called shot for flavorish purposes, creating a fighter that specializes in hitting the vital parts to incapacitate his foes as fast as possible. I put for to you, how I hit better?


Pure Adept? Might be one of the few cases where an Drake would be worthwhile? + Surge for Metagenetic Ability Agi.
Medicineman
Better Agi
Surge
Spezialisation
Martial Arts
Reflex Recorder
Drugs to Boost AGI & STR

With better Dances
Medicineman
phlapjack77
By "pure", do you mean no cyberware?

Off the top of my head, make an elf with the ex. attribute:agi and genetic opt: agi for 9 AGI (10 possible?). Add a spec to your skill for 2 more dice, so your total is 9 + 6 + 3 + 2 = 20 dice?

Prob some martial arts maneouvers you can get for the called shot stuff to offset penalties or something
ggodo
I'm using Wildcat for the +1 to called shots, SURGE is out, any other martial arts to look at? I'll boost AGI and get the spec. Does Drake do anything while not in Draco form?
Magus
Attribute Boost (temp boost then resist stun = boost level ) Boost Agility
Specialization +2 to martial arts
Positive Quality: AFBATM: but there is a quality for skill that gives you a +1 to the skill cap ummm brain fart
Cain
If you're wanting to go pure adept (no bio- or cyberware) then consider Improved Physical Attribute, but definitely buy Attribute Boost. It's quite a good deal.

If you want to make Called Shots, consider taking the Martial Arts edge and picking up Pentjak Silat or Wildcat. Wildcat is better for targeting vulnerable areas, while Silat is better for increasing the damage.

Oh, yeah, and pick up Aptitude: Unarmed Combat and Specialization: Martial Arts.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Magus @ Jul 19 2011, 01:39 AM) *
Attribute Boost (temp boost then resist stun = boost level ) Boost Agility
Specialization +2 to martial arts
Positive Quality: AFBATM: but there is a quality for skill that gives you a +1 to the skill cap ummm brain fart


Aptitude.

Basically, when pumping your dice pools, you want to take advantage of your AUGMENTED maxiumums. That is, a maxiumum of 1.5 times your max stat, round down. So an agility of 6 can be heightened up to 9 with ware.


Also tacnets.

So...
Agi 5.
Restricted gear: muscle toner 4. (alternately, attribute boost and magic 6 is just that good)
Hardliner gloves, weapon focus 3. (whichever the limit is)
Skill 6. Spec +2.
Tacnet +1-4
Synch or Sideways can nab another +1 to general combat tests.
Situational bonuses: Kung fu(or is it muy thai) can give you an additional +1 while making Charging attacks, which is hella excellent.

Additional ways include raising your natural maxiumum. Surge can do this, as can exceptional attribute(bad choice). Genetic optimization from augmentation can as well.

So if you're an elf with Genetic Optimization: Agility, you start with agility 2, your natural maximum is 8(one higher than normal due to the geneware), and your augmented max is 12. (8 x 1.5 round down).

Pumping your dice pools is all about exploiting your augmented maximums, and claiming as many situational bonuses as you can.
kerbarian
You can get another +1 from the Kick Attack martial arts maneuver, since it increases your reach for unarmed attacks.
Glyph
If you eschew 'ware for your character, then you should spend a point of Magic to get improved Attribute: Agility (0.75 points), and Attribute boost: Agility: 1 (0.25 points). For the latter, be sure not to get it over rating: 1. The extra difference is marginal, and the Drain increase is drastic - you want it where you can consistently, and reliably, soak that Drain completely.
Magus
but glyph you are only soaking the rating of the power not the hits so rating 1 1 drain rating 2 two drain etc etc
Elfenlied
Assuming you do not want to use ware or drugs, and stay adept (e.g. no Mystical Adept):
Agility 5
Attribute boost: Agility X (anything that will reliably grant you 9 agility)
Skill 7 +2 Spec
Improved Ability 3
Hardliner gloves weapon focus 2 +1 personalized grip

That's a DP of 24, or 19 if you can't activate attribute boost beforehand. I suggest coupling it with elemental strike, since you might as well use the second simple action. This allows you to reliably use called shots, and apart from aptitude for unarmed, no hardmax is used.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Magus @ Jul 19 2011, 10:09 AM) *
but glyph you are only soaking the rating of the power not the hits so rating 1 1 drain rating 2 two drain etc etc

He does still have a point that value-for-drain drops as you increase your rating in the power, which I (and I believe many others) think breaks it.

You get discrepancies like this:

Magic 8, Attribute Boost 1 = 9DP for boost, 1DV drain
Magic 5, Attribute Boost 4 = 9DP for boost, 4DV drain

To me it's not reasonable for the guy who has trained extensively in the power to be facing much more considerable drain than the guy who has only dabbled but is already great at everything else magical. Even if you can reason it out thematically, it's not good for balance.

I house rule the drain to be the average of power rating and Magic rating (round down, as per usual), since you roll both for hits. That way it doesn't matter at all whether the adept's dice come from the power or his Magic rating so increasing the power's rating is now attractive because it is relatively cheap.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Agility Boost and Improved Ability: UC.
If you have Magic 6 and the Warrior's Way you could get something like:

Ability Boost (Agility) 1 0.25
Improved Reflexes 2 1.875*
Critical Strike 6 1.125*
Improved Ability (UC) 6 2.25*
Killing Hands 0.5

*means you got the discount from the Warrior's Way positive quality.
Mardrax
Heightened Concentration could be used as well. Takes a complex action though.
Mäx
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 19 2011, 02:51 PM) *
Improved Ability (UC) 6 2.25*

Level 3 max.
Brazilian_Shinobi
I don't see anywhere Improved Ability is limited to level 3.
Makki
Surge Elongated Limbs for +1 Reach
Etiquette Skill, so you can make friends and benefit from the "friends in melee bonus"
Always charge at the opponent +2
or jump at them from a rooftop +2 for superior position (Medicineman can tell you a story here)
make a knockdown attack and then use finishing move. you get +3 for defender prone and he receives -2 for being prone.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 19 2011, 12:47 PM) *
I don't see anywhere Improved Ability is limited to level 3.


It says so in the SR4A rulebook. It's limited to 1,5*<skill value>, which is a maximum of 3, since they round down.
Aku
umm, wouldnt 1.5*a skill value of 6 =9?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 19 2011, 06:12 AM) *
umm, wouldnt 1.5*a skill value of 6 =9?


Which means you can only have 3 Levels of the Improved Ability Power (for that particular Skill), yes.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 19 2011, 01:12 PM) *
umm, wouldnt 1.5*a skill value of 6 =9?


Yes, nine would be the total skill with mods.
Aku
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2011, 08:20 AM) *
Which means you can only have 3 Levels of the Improved Ability Power (for that particular Skill), yes.



Wow, thats a REALLY shitty way to word that sentence. it really should just say .... base value/2 rounded down (if that part isnt already implicit
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 19 2011, 01:25 PM) *
Wow, thats a REALLY shitty way to word that sentence. it really should just say .... base value/2 rounded down (if that part isnt already implicit


For what it's worth, the German version of SR4A is completely unambiguos on this.
Mäx
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 19 2011, 04:28 PM) *
For what it's worth, the German version of SR4A is completely unambiguos on this.

As is the English version.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 19 2011, 06:31 AM) *
As is the English version.

Indeed... No ambiguity, at all, in the English Printing. smile.gif
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 19 2011, 10:25 AM) *
Wow, thats a REALLY shitty way to word that sentence. it really should just say .... base value/2 rounded down (if that part isnt already implicit


Agreed, it could be worded like Enhanced Perception: "You cannot have more Improved Ability dice than half your skill."

Anyway, just trade the Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 6 to 3 and get yourself Combat Sense 2.
LurkerOutThere
Getting things back on topic, things that can help you:

Specialization
Boost Attibute
Things that will boost reach (which are various degrees of freakish)
Tacnet
Charging
Superior Position

For the record I also highly recommend some of the martial arts manuevers, Coup De Grace can be especially helpful for putting down a big guy although it's out of the scope of the Op.

The big one I haven't seen mentioned is friends in melee. Investing in (post character creation) a drone capable of getting in melee or some type of critter can be a real boon. They can also help you support the tacnet option as listed above.
Mäx
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 19 2011, 05:12 PM) *
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 19 2011, 04:25 PM) *

Wow, thats a REALLY shitty way to word that sentence. it really should just say .... base value/2 rounded down (if that part isnt already implicit

Agreed, it could be worded like Enhanced Perception: "You cannot have more Improved Ability dice than half your skill."

What exactly is so fraking unclear about "A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5"?
A rule couldn't get much clearer then that.
Aerospider
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 19 2011, 03:16 PM) *
Getting things back on topic, things that can help you:

Specialization
Boost Attibute
Things that will boost reach (which are various degrees of freakish)
Tacnet
Charging
Superior Position

For the record I also highly recommend some of the martial arts manuevers, Coup De Grace can be especially helpful for putting down a big guy although it's out of the scope of the Op.

The big one I haven't seen mentioned is friends in melee. Investing in (post character creation) a drone capable of getting in melee or some type of critter can be a real boon. They can also help you support the tacnet option as listed above.

I don't think situational considerations (charging, superior position) are relevant here. Otherwise my advice would be to surprise the enemy with a monofilament garotte, thus circumventing the need for a high DP entirely.

I'd like to add something positive to mitigate the above negativity, but sorry I'm all out.
LurkerOutThere
Well if your not using those options because you were unaware of them (as I was until i set out to build a unarmed combat technomancer) then they are relevant. Are you going to be able to use them everytime, no but it's certainly a tool in the toolbox.

Lets say your a unarmed combat specialist facing someone with heavy armor to the point where your normal tactic doesn't work. (In my case in particular i'm a resonant trode technomancer facing someone in heavy millspec, there's no skin for me to touchlink the GM ruled, seemed reasonable but bad day) I had to switch from my normal tactics to using subduals and throws to get them into a position so i could start to get enough DP's to get through all that armor. Next time this happens I hope to throw the offending party into traffic even if i have to create said traffic.

As GI joe says, knowing is half the battle.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 19 2011, 12:07 PM) *
As GI joe says, knowing is half the battle.


Or, in Battletech (Adam Steiner, 1st Summerset Strikers. I know, really old stuff) "Information is ammunition"
Traul
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 19 2011, 03:12 PM) *
Agreed, it could be worded like Enhanced Perception: "You cannot have more Improved Ability dice than half your skill."

That's not the same: the RAW includes all possibles modifiers. Reflex recorder also increases the skill and I am AFB, but I think they stack.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 19 2011, 09:27 AM) *
That's not the same: the RAW includes all possibles modifiers. Reflex recorder also increases the skill and I am AFB, but I think they stack.


Reflex Recorders only augment up to 1.5x the Normal, Unaugmented Skill. So at Skill 6, you can have Improved Ability/Reflex Recorders totalling 3 points, in any combination. But only for up to 3 points (Max Augmented Skill of 9 (10)).
sabs
Reflex recorders specifically adds to the 'Rating of the Skill'
Improved ability says:
This power increased the rating of a Specific Active skill by 1 per level. A skill's maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5.

So, they 'stack' but they don't increase the limit.

if you have a 6 skill, you can get +3. It doesn't matter how you get there.
+1 from Reflex Recorder
+2 from Improved Ability
or
+1 Reflex Recorder
+1 Reflex Recorder group
+1 improved ability

but you just can't get passed +3.
If you had +1 reflex Recorder, and +3 Improved ability, your bonus would still only be +3, not +4

So they stack, ish.

TJ you damn NINJA
Fyndhal
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 19 2011, 12:55 PM) *
Reflex Recorders only augment up to 1.5x the Normal, Unaugmented Skill. So at Skill 6, you can have Improved Ability/Reflex Recorders totalling 3 points, in any combination. But only for up to 3 points (Max Augmented Skill of 9 (10)).


Wait...Reflex Recorders stack with themselves? I've always treated them as non-stacking! I'm not sure how this will change any builds...but it definitely was an oversight on my part. Hmm...
Shinobi Killfist
I really like elf with improved agility. Going from 7 to 8 natural max kicks the augmented max from 10 to 12. With the ridiculous range of things agility covers elf with any kind of improved agility is a huge value. So if you went with Elf, improved agility and boost attribute you could get some awesome results not just for hand to hand combat but for a wide range of others tasks you might even be defaulting to. Personally I'd consider shooting for the 8 agility at the start, it is a hefty cost but in the long run I like it since going from 7-8 agility in game is 40 karma, where a lot of the things I'd be cutting for those 25 BP are in a much cheaper range to improve.
Aku
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 19 2011, 10:27 AM) *
Agreed, it could be worded like Enhanced Perception: "You cannot have more Improved Ability dice than half your skill."

What exactly is so fraking unclear about "A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5"?
A rule couldn't get much clearer then that.


It's too wordy, IMO, and if read hastily can be confusing.
sabs
QUOTE (Fyndhal @ Jul 19 2011, 05:37 PM) *
Wait...Reflex Recorders stack with themselves? I've always treated them as non-stacking! I'm not sure how this will change any builds...but it definitely was an oversight on my part. Hmm...


well Reflex Recorder stacks with Reflex Recorder (group)
You cannot have 2 reflex recorders for the same SKILL. But you can have one for the GROUP and one for the SKILL.

Reflex Recorder Firearms
Reflex Recorder Pistols

are perfectly valid.

Traul
And the beauty of it is you don't have to default anymore when you stumble upon an assault rifle smile.gif
Makki
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 19 2011, 03:19 PM) *
And the beauty of it is you don't have to default anymore when you stumble upon an assault rifle smile.gif

yes you do, because your skill level is still 0. 0x1.5=0. The Reflex Rrcorder starts working once you have a rating 2 skill. Then it will increase your skill to 3.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 19 2011, 04:27 PM) *
yes you do, because your skill level is still 0. 0x1.5=0. The Reflex Rrcorder starts working once you have a rating 2 skill. Then it will increase your skill to 3.


What if you have the relevant Skill wires? I believe this should work...
Edit: Meaning Reflex recorder and skillwires. Obviously if you have skillwires for Longarms, you don't default.
Fyndhal
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 19 2011, 02:16 PM) *
well Reflex Recorder stacks with Reflex Recorder (group)
You cannot have 2 reflex recorders for the same SKILL. But you can have one for the GROUP and one for the SKILL.

Reflex Recorder Firearms
Reflex Recorder Pistols

are perfectly valid.


That's how I thought it worked. I read the above post as saying you could have 3*Reflex Recorder Pistols and they'd stack.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 19 2011, 03:16 PM) *
well Reflex Recorder stacks with Reflex Recorder (group)
You cannot have 2 reflex recorders for the same SKILL. But you can have one for the GROUP and one for the SKILL.

Reflex Recorder Firearms
Reflex Recorder Pistols

are perfectly valid.


Really? That seems really shaky to me. I'd say the description of the reflex recorder implies the exact opposite.
Xenefungus
No need to go for huge dicepools to ignore armor, just use Elemental Strike[Sound] to circumvent it completely for free smile.gif
I also had great fun with an adept built around Nerve Strike, opponents dont get to soak and you can dump Strength smile.gif
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Jul 19 2011, 06:30 PM) *
No need to go for huge dicepools to ignore armor, just use Elemental Strike[Sound] to circumvent it completely for free smile.gif


I had an NPC, an agent working with Tamanous, who used a Basilisk and Elemental Strike (Smoke) to dispatch foes and harvest the organs.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 19 2011, 06:47 AM) *
I don't see anywhere Improved Ability is limited to level 3.


improved ability is limited to a number of ranks equal to half the base skill.

it is NOT the 'augmented maximum' rule, but a distinct seperate rule which ALSO applies.

Basically to raise your improved ability you must raise the base skill as well. No cheating your way from 0 to 9 on power points alone.

Xenefungus
True.

Btw, i would not go for exceptional attribute nor aptitude as others said here. Diminishing returns imho.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Jul 19 2011, 06:04 PM) *
True.

Btw, i would not go for exceptional attribute nor aptitude as others said here. Diminishing returns imho.


Exceptional attribute agility on an elf pans out not so much for your unarmed combat pool because yes there are diminishing returns. But, it helps in almost everything else you do. It is nice to default to 11 dice. If agility wasn't so much a do everything stat it would not be as awesome.
Mäx
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 20 2011, 12:54 AM) *
it is NOT the 'augmented maximum' rule, but a distinct seperate rule which ALSO applies.

What, no it's not, it's exacrly the augmented skill maximum rule, well actually more of a reminder about it.
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