Let me start off by saying that my players have thoroughly confused the crap out of me. Help!

Smartlink does not work with a Scope. That makes sense to me.

But, how would you handle a Smartlink combined with cyber Image Magnification? I cannot find anything to say that it cannot work together.

I figure that if you zoom in, you will still see the smartlink dot of your weapons current target. I do have a problem with the idea that at long ranges holding your weapon steady will be of extreme importance because of your limited visual perspective.

So, unless you all have a better or canon solution that I have missed, I have decided that smartlink can only work out to the same range that a laser sight works (50m).

Is that a reasonable solution? Or am I way off?

It has always worked that way witht the GM I have. It's really hard to change targets effectively, but someone or something you zoom in on, get's a bullet (or two) where the crosshair is pointing.

How should I penalize them for the time taken to zoom out and back in on the next target? Make the zoom in action a simple action? If I do that then I will take away my 50m penalty.

Besides the fact that anything at longer ranges that I am shooting at I could probably take the time to aim first.

in my games i just don't let them combine, also if they want benefits of scope (or vision mag) then they have to declear an aim action, but that last one is a house rule.

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml#2

The Shadowrun FAQ actually answers the question for us.

The rules state that image magnifying scopes are not compatible with smartlinks, but what about cybernetic vision magnification or the equivalent adept improved sense?
While a character may be simultaneously equipped with a smartlink system and an imaging scope/vision mag cyberware/vision mag adept power, the modifiers from both may not be used at the same time. So a samurai could use vision magnification to reduce the target number when shooting a target at long range, and then switch to using a smartlink to reduce the target number against a target at short range--but he couldn't use both the smartlink and vision mag modifiers on the same target.

Better to just slap a Range Finder accessory onto your gun, combined with a smartlink 2, the bonuses are nearly as good as a laser sight + mag scope.

Making them take and aim action is a very good idea. But, if I do not allow them to use smartlink to aim with Vision Mag cyber, how can they even aim? Once they zoom, their visual perspective would either narrow too much to see the iron sights of the weapon, or the iron sights would be huge and useless for fine aiming...

And that FAQ makes no sense for the reasons I just stated. How can they aim with the Vision Mag cyber alone?

So, with your idea you can reduce the range modifiers, but you do not get the added -2 from Smartlink/-1 from Laser. Consider though, that a laser only works up to 50m which makes them only useful for smaller arms, in regards to reducing range mods. Also, I would still require an aim action as well.

It may work that same as the crosshairs in a scope, but I have to zoom in and out to aquire a target. If I get a muscle spasm while zoomed in and my smartlink dot moves outside of my vision arc, I would have to zoom out to reaquire my target.

What a goofy ass mess. No wonder I got all confused. LOL

Read the section in combat on SG link and vision mag. SG links are nto compatible with any other vision enhancing equipment. In other words if you use a SG link you can not use a scope or cybered vision mag.

If you do a search on the forums there have been several topics concerning this.

Hmm. Doesn't that make smartlinks kinda useless for snipers, over a decent level 3 scope then? Does that really make much sense?

Yes, for extreme-range work.

Aim-Aim-Aim works real well.

I said nothing about it making sense. But the rules are pretty clear on this. If you are using a scope, or cyber ware to enhance your visual range, you cannot use a sg link.

Personally I would use a scope and rely on a skilled character. You can also go the sg+rf route and get a decent reduction.

It does make sense though, when you use a scope you are focusing your vision, how does the SG link tell between the stuff that's ten feet a way on your periphery, and the stuff you are seeing through the scope?

Nope. How does the chip know? As far as the chip is concerned you are looking at a piece of glass 2 inches in front of your face.

This is why IMHO that SG links and vision mags are incompatible. However, whatever the reason for it, they are.

if we're talking realism, the chip would know because you know--shouldn't be that hard to compare the image from each eye and triangulate a reasonably accurate distance. but, as far as SR goes, Shadow's right. Sega's Time Crisis series has surpassed the functionality of smartlink cyberware.

Non-cybernetic smartlinks aren't smart at all. They're just laser sights in your eyes. When talking about real smartlinks, you're talking about ones connected directly to your brain and come standard with the a limited-to-the-smartlink-only datajack/induction pad and simrig.

well, they're smart to a degree. after all, SL2s still give you the -2 on called shots. but, yes, in general, a non-cyber smartlink is a lot 'dumber' than an implanted one; hence the lower bonus.

M&M states that a Smartlink-2 system with any replacement parts (ie, goggles) only grants a -1 TN bonus to ranged combat, just like all other smartgoggles. Nothing else is gained, including the other benefits of Smartlink-2's.

whoops. have to check that out.

having looked it up, Clockwork, i'm gonna have to say you're mistaken, unless you can give me chapter and verse. i see nothing in M&M, CC, or SR3 that denies a smartgoggle user the extra benefits of an SL2. as a matter of fact, there are smartgoggles for the SL2 listed in CC, at 500Y more than SL1 goggles. if the benefits of using SL2 do not transfer to smartgoggle users, there would be no point in offering SL2-specific smartgoggles (since SL2 gun modifications are backwards-compatible with SL1 cyberware and smartgoggles).

Look you know what the rule is, and its crystal clear. If you try to explain away all the rules in SR youll go insane, dont even try. Just take it as is for game balance reasons.

You want to make that your house rule, fine. But it will mean no one buys Vision Mag 3, everyone buys Smartlink. If youre ok with that then go with it. Not so much for illogicalness but whos going to want to spend 4 actions (aim x3, shoot) when they could spend 1 action (shoot) to do the same thing. Think about it. I mean hell the (aim x3, shoot) combo will give you passable TNs without *any* sight enchancement.

As for the goggles: SL and SL-2 goggles exist. SL-2 ones provide the usual SL-2 benefits. But, in all cases, non-cybernetic smartlinks only get a base -1 TN to shooting. Least as I read it.

Another perfectly valid interpretation is that the only target bonus received is the -1. Other, non-stat based benefits would still apply, such as clip ejection, ammo readouts, etc. Or am I misunderstanding your position?

No, becuase it does not say "the only targeting bonus it grants" or even "instead of the usual -2 bonus the cybernetic version grants." It says it *only* provides that one, single benefit. No exceptions. "Only" is not being used as an exception, it's being used to indicate the sole numerical benefit of the non-cybernetic version.

If it were being used as an exception, it would read more like "while both the cybernetic and non-cybernetic versions include all of the features above, the non-cybernetic version only provides a -1 bonus on ranged combat." But it doesn't. No mention of any other abilities is made in the paragraph before or the paragraph after. It's not an exception, it's the rule.

But as always, interpret it and play it however you like in your games.

Can anyone give a quick rundown on the base range target numbers for different combinations listed herein? For example, somone with no augmentations would be 4/5/6/9. Someone with a smartlink and a rangefinder would have 2/3/4/8 I think (smartlink has -2 for short and medium range and then with the rangefinder you get a -2 and -1 for long and extreme IIRC). Etc. I could be wrong already, but this stuff has always confused the hell out of me for two years. Seems you guys have a good lock on it and you might be able to help me and others out.

From the back of the Cannon Companion:

4 5 6(8) 9(9) - Standard
3 4 5(7) 8(8) - Laser Sight
3 4 5(7) 8(8) - Smart Goggles or Non-Cybernetic Smartlinks
2 3 4(6) 7(7) - Smartlink
2 3 3(5) 5(5) - Smartlink-2 with Range Finder
4 4 5(5) 6(8) - Image Magnification 1
4 4 4(4) 5(5) - Image Magnification 2
4 4 4(4) 4(4) - Image Magnification 3
3 3 4(4) 4(4) - Image Magnification 1 with Laser Sight
3 3 3(3) 4(4) - Image Magnification 2 with Laser Sight
3 3 3(3) 3(3) - Image Magnification 3 with Laser Sight

The numbers are listed in S M L and Ext ranges (did it that way for the lack of a Table function on this board, but luckily Verdana has a fixed-width for numbers). The number in parenthesis is for grenade launchers, mortars, and missile launchers.

Just as a side note, this table demonstrates exactly why I advocate allowing smartlinks to work with image magnification. There's no way a damn laser sight should trump a smartlink at any range. If you were allowing them to work in tandem, a smartlink with image magnification 3 would only net a -1 target number modifier bonus over the laser sight version... which is exactly how it should be anyway.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. The only numerical bonus you receive is a -1 target number bonus. You don't gain any other numerical bonuses (such as the reduction to +2 for Called Shots or a -1 for linked weapons), and common sense would dictate that you don't gain any of the cybernetic functions either, depending on which components you have installed; the clip ejection and choke manipulation are functions of your limited datajack control over the weapon (so you need the datajack/induction pad at the very least), whereas the ammo readout would easily be available in your goggles.

Why wouldn't I be able to better pinpoint my target with a laser and cyber vision mag? How else would you know where you are aiming?

I think there's been a whole thread or several about it, actually (in which you may have taken part with your earlier nick, I don't remember). It just seems to me that if you want to make the rules about which aim-enhancing system stacks with which more reasonable you'd better start with making laser sights and magnifying weapon scopes not stack than with trying to make Smartlink as good.

The only bonuses I give for shooting TNs with cybereye image magnification is that if you've also got a Smartlink (not laser sight) you can use it as if it were an image magnifying weapon scope of the respective rating. That always seemed the most reasonable solution to me.

One thing id like to mention....


Seems like the sniper rifle from FOF had a scope that allowed the PC to "jack-in" to the scope itself. It seems that if we are at a tech level that would allow SL and the such that a scope could be designed to do that function. The truth is, i think some of the more creative ideas are scrapped for game balance. I have a sniper in my Troupe, and when they do the proper recon and have drone support, he is the most combat effective in the party.

Well, at least if the majority of the run takes place in the open or near a lightly armored to no armor window at least. Dunno about you guys, but those types of run tend to be on the rare side for us.

clockwork, your argument about compatibility is backwards. smartgoggles for smartlink-1 systems will work fine with a smartlink-2 gun mod, as clarified in the errata:

That was a (in my opinion at least) erroneous "correction" to the rules. Not only does it break the point of the added cost to the smartgoggles-2, but it makes the Ballistic Processor (Smartlink 1) a pretty useless implant. If you wanted to be backwards compatible by the original rules, you had to install both ballistic processors (a +1,000 nuyen increase). The goggles-2 alone would give you the same benefit for only a +500 nuyen increase.

But again, that's just my opinion. Officially, it does make it a worthless set of goggles.

what, SR rules that don't make sense? say it ain't so !!

Here's a way I make all that stacking stuff make sense in my game.

WARNING!!! NON-CANON MATERIAL FOLLOWS!!!

Cybernetic Smartlinks give two -1TN bonuses that stack. A -1 because of the reticle in your field of vision (which gives you the approximate point of impact) and a -1 for being able to fire the weapon via cybernetic command. Pulling a trigger in most cases will alter your aim, even if it is just slightly. So being able to shoot without pulling the trigger adds to accuracy.

Now, how does this worth with scopes? First off, scopes in my game give you an automatic -1 to TN because the crosshairs give you a good reference for point of impact. They also reduce the Range TN(like canon). Now for Smartlinked weapons with scopes, there is a bit of an overlap. First off, when you grip the scope-equipped smartgun, the reticle on your field of vision automatically kicks off, and appears inside the lense of the scope. So the -1 TN for having a reticle in your field of vision applies. Then, being able to fire the weapon without touching the trigger gives you the other -1 TN. That way the Smartlink systems can fully integrate with scopes, like they should.

And I don't know how you guys play it, but in my games, the cyber eye doesn't have anything to do with how smartlinks work, except that it displays the reticle on your field of vision. All the active rangefinding and what not goes on inside the smartlink hardware inside the firearm itself. So the smartlink "LOOKS" out of the "sensor" on the front of the gun, not out of your cyber eye. Also, to add a bit of plausibility, range-finders are an integral part of smartlinks, so you don't need a Rangefinder accessory. I just don't see how Smartlinks could work or at least be accurate at any distance without knowing the range to the target/point of aim.

There's essentially two and a half major set ups you see in dedicated gunners in SR.

The Non-cybernetic setup is an extended Range laser sight/Rating 3 image mag/Low light or thermal/ combo unit mounted on an SMG or shotgun. Anything with a longer range than those and you don't get the benefit of the Ext. range laser sight on your Extreme shots during the day. This leads to the half a set up.

Tracers are half a setup. You can actually get lower TNs with tracers than you do with a Smartlink at times. If your GM lets you use the laser sight/scope combo with tracers, even hard core street samurai may want to reconsider their smartlink-2. At all ranges beyond short, so long as you fire a 3-round burst at the target, you will be firing at a base TN of 2. Go for a 9 or 10-round burst and you can keep that TN 2 and cancel out 2 more TN worth of mods, such as the Full Darkness mod if you have low light with eyelights. If your GM vetos this by saying that the scope changes all ranges to short and therefore Tracers do not help, stick to the first setup if you can't have cybernetics.

Cybernetic: Smartlink-2 with a rangefinder. Quick 'n Easy.

...and when your team is in the subbasement of a facility, extracting a research scientist, while under attack from security... a sniper with a 14S weapon outside on a neighboring building is going to do you frell-all.

Runs like that tend to be just a tad bit more common than ones where we run into a major opposition outside, in an easily snipe-able position, where the targets just stand around waiting to be picked off one by one. But obviously your mileage varies.

You seem to think a sniper rifle can only be used at long ranges and outdoors. They can be used on targets 3 meters away as effectively as an ares predator, except that 'sniper rifles' have higher base damage than the predator. There is no difference in how loud a sniper rifle on semi auto is compared to a predator as long as both have mounted a silencer.

As an example.
Sneaking through a corp building, the 'sniper' spots a security guard 10 meters away. The guard is crossing the top of a T-shaped junction. The sniper has the best odds of putting him down in one shot even with gel rounds.

Ooh, my mistake. I guess I'm just not used to characters who regularly sneak around with a four-foot long sniper rifle in hand.

'Course, some dude with a rifle shooting people in a situation that everyone else is iin doesn't really seem to qualify as a "sniper" to me, either. But I guess they qualify as long as they remain unseen most of the time. <shrugs>

Not to mention the size of the silencer itself.

unfortunately, in SR3, there isn't a difference between a silenced Predator and a silenced Barrett Big Fifty. there are no mods for using larger or smaller weapons, and there are no mods for reducing a bullet's velocity to subsonic speeds.

OMG ....

Guess what, being a GAME it doesnt exactly mirror RL.

If you want it to do so, make your own rules, dont post here about how wrong the written ones are. Because being a game they have to do things like try to balance stuff that screw with reality. And the exact math involved may not always work out perfect.