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Greegan
Hi there, Dumpshockers!

Just wanted to know there was any errata on the Plasteel Homunculus available? My mage in our current campaign is making one and one of my fellow players made the observation that the DV code for the darn thing is WAY high. If you had a Force 4 capable PH that would be an Unarmed Attack of 7 (meh, not great), but a DV of 11P???

That's not too off-putting, but a Force 6 shell would allow for a UA of 11 and 13P!

Just curious if there were any other people out there who had an opinion on this.

*EDIT* ALSO - given the nature of the construction of the PH (let's face it, it says in the description it's often confused for a anthro form drone) - would a character be able to mount things to PH? Wire it for a control rig, etc? Obviously looking at a significant increase in cost - but it would have the distinct advantage of being able to move about when a spirit couldn't power it.

Thanks
Summerstorm
Well, it IS pretty mighty, but only the same as every super-strong, enhanced weight dudes out there.

Someone with strength 8 and either bone density or good lacing does 7DV. There are people running around ramping that up with KI-powers, martial arts qualities or more strength.

The Homunculous lowers the attack chance in exchange too. Agility is a bit better for damage (and NEEDED to even hit), but you will lose a die there. Eh, having good melee-damage is the least problem of spirits *g*.

EDIT (for your edit): Well, now you want the spirit to possess a drone. Possible: yes. But the drone will have a way higher threshold to possess and will NEVER have such an insane body attribute. It will be a drone... like the ones in the book.
pbangarth
There are a lot of limitations on the usefulness of a homunculus: cost, availability, needing to be possessed (with an opposed test), lack of mobility/accessibility, obvious nature (anything but a minor spirit will make it clear -- glowing eyes, green vapours, whatever the GM wants), blocked by astral barriers, neutralized by anything that can deal with a spirit (as opposed to a simple drone), etc. So, it seems OK to me that it packs quite a punch.

Probably you could set it up with rigging and internal mobility controls, but the Object Resistance should rise dramatically because of it.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Greegan @ Jul 23 2011, 03:27 PM) *
*EDIT* ALSO - given the nature of the construction of the PH (let's face it, it says in the description it's often confused for a anthro form drone) - would a character be able to mount things to PH? Wire it for a control rig, etc? Obviously looking at a significant increase in cost - but it would have the distinct advantage of being able to move about when a spirit couldn't power it.

Thanks


I will have to go relook at it but it is not a drone in any way shape or form, it's a large articulated statue, no locomotion what so ever beyond what the spirit provides so my gut reaction would be .


As to your other question, nothing else about possesion traditions were well thought hrough why would this be?
Mx
QUOTE (Greegan @ Jul 23 2011, 11:27 PM) *
Hi there, Dumpshockers!

Just wanted to know there was any errata on the Plasteel Homunculus available? My mage in our current campaign is making one and one of my fellow players made the observation that the DV code for the darn thing is WAY high. If you had a Force 4 capable PH that would be an Unarmed Attack of 7 (meh, not great), but a DV of 11P???

Well my tiger shifter adept does 11P AP -Half(and only because i didn't feel the need to make it higher at chargen, one point more magic could raise that to 15P) on her natural form with 13 dice, so that PH isn't so bad wink.gif
Neurosis
A Force 6 spirit in a Plasteel Homunculus punches for 13P on an attack roll with 11 Dice to hit, and 6 Edge to either pre-spend or spend correctively if the roll does not go well.

That is some seriously deadly shit, no doubt about it.

I don't think it's a typo, however. (Unlike the NPC in Ghost Cartels with 10 Initiative passes and an Initiative Score of 1. : ) )
Ryu
QUOTE (Greegan @ Jul 23 2011, 10:27 PM) *
Hi there, Dumpshockers!

Just wanted to know there was any errata on the Plasteel Homunculus available? My mage in our current campaign is making one and one of my fellow players made the observation that the DV code for the darn thing is WAY high. If you had a Force 4 capable PH that would be an Unarmed Attack of 7 (meh, not great), but a DV of 11P???

That's not too off-putting, but a Force 6 shell would allow for a UA of 11 and 13P!

High-force possession is really good, as is the latter damage code. A Guardian + "dumb" Assault Rifle or an Air Spirit using Engulf are at least equally dangerous, so no problem with the damage code on my end.
QUOTE
*EDIT* ALSO - given the nature of the construction of the PH (let's face it, it says in the description it's often confused for a anthro form drone) - would a character be able to mount things to PH? Wire it for a control rig, etc? Obviously looking at a significant increase in cost - but it would have the distinct advantage of being able to move about when a spirit couldn't power it.

Thanks

It might look the part, but it is made of solid plasteel, no engine to be found. Given the high density, Id not permit the drone mod. You are perfectly fine to use drones, if you can cope with the object resistance.
Stahlseele
You could, of course, mount weapon-mounts on it and have those possessed by sprites/agents and use the homunculus body as a vehicle and recoil dampener . . just saying . .
And who says you can't build in sensors and cameras and phones and the such? O.o
it is, by then, basically, a magically controlled drone . .
Draco18s
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jul 23 2011, 04:36 PM) *
Someone with strength 8 and either bone density or good lacing does 7DV. There are people running around ramping that up with KI-powers, martial arts qualities or more strength.


I'd just like to point out that I said this to my GM earlier in our game:

"He punched out all my blood."

I got bitch slapped by an orc for 14P (as a body 2 mage...with 8P already taken). Due to some fanagaling of circumstances and a rules lookup (the orc had made an attack he couldn't have on another player) we downgraded it to stun (the orc would have wanted to take the mage alive, so he'd have used his shock hands).

I still ended up unconscious, but alive.

Point is, a melee character is freaking deadly, even with not that many dice.
onlyghostdanceswhiledrunk
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 23 2011, 01:54 PM) *
You could, of course, mount weapon-mounts on it and have those possessed by sprites/agents and use the homunculus body as a vehicle and recoil dampener . . just saying . .
And who says you can't build in sensors and cameras and phones and the such? O.o
it is, by then, basically, a magically controlled drone . .


yeah but the OR would spike way up imo.
Stahlseele
more than with plasteel anyway?
Bushw4cker
Summoning and especially Binding High force spirits in SR4, is extremely dangerous.
Summoning is Magic + Summoning skill vs Spirits Force. Spirits Hits x 2 (Not Net Hits) is the drain value. So a lucky force 6 spirit could possible do 12S or 12P damage to the summoner, and that's if the spirit isn't even using edge.
Binding is even Harder, Magic + Binding vs Spirits Force x2, with a possible 24S or 24P damage drain

I think most force 6 spirits, that would more then likely be mentally superior to the caster in every way, would be resentful of the servitude and would use their edge to resist binding and in some cases, summoning.

3rd and 4th edition spirits are not comparable. A force 6 spirit in 4th edition, is the equivalent to a force 9 or 10 in 3rd edition.

Also don't forget Background count, a rating 1 or 2 background count would be fairly common in the sixth world. A church, a place frequented by awakened, and each point of Background count, reduces a spirits rating.
Greegan
Thank you all very much for putting it into perspective. That helps a lot.

RE: Force 6 - I really have little intention of having him try a force 6 just in order to have him possess the PH, but thought I would post the numbers to see what everyone thought. Right now, my mage is doing GREAT to summon and bind a Force 4 smile.gif

Bodak
QUOTE (Greegan @ Jul 24 2011, 06:27 AM) *
Just wanted to know there was any errata on the Plasteel Homunculus available? My mage in our current campaign is making one
Apart from the drawbacks pbangarth cited, a homunculus is 10kg per Force point so it's pretty cumbersome to lug around when not possessed. If you prepare it as a vessel (which you should do, so that your spirit has a decent chance of possessing it when you command it to (remember that if it fails, it cannot try again until after dawn/dusk, which is when it usually departs unless bound)) then a hostile NPC spirit can possess it and stab your team in the back. If your team is making a getaway and your spirit is disrupted, are you going to go back and pick up the homunculus manually or will you abandon that investment?

QUOTE (Greegan @ Jul 24 2011, 06:27 AM) *
*EDIT* ALSO - given the nature of the construction of the PH (let's face it, it says in the description it's often confused for a anthro form drone) - would a character be able to mount things to PH? Wire it for a control rig, etc? Obviously looking at a significant increase in cost - but it would have the distinct advantage of being able to move about when a spirit couldn't power it.
I asked something similar in 2004 here. You might find that discussion interesting.

QUOTE (Neurosis @ Jul 24 2011, 07:43 AM) *
A Force 6 spirit in a Plasteel Homunculus punches for 13P on an attack roll with 11 Dice to hit, and 6 Edge to either pre-spend or spend correctively if the roll does not go well.
Are you proposing that the spirit would spend its Edge for the conjurer? If the conjurer had the appropriate Spirit Affinity quality and the task at hand was very much in the best interests of the spirit to accomplish, then maybe it might spend its Edge. Normally though, no.
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