So, I am guilty of loving this crazy show called Sons of Guns. Some of the stuff they make is cute, others are insane, & most gun enthusiasts & RL gun owners/users will say these folks aren't that great or awesome. I really couldn't care less as I watch the show for fun as I drink my beer & breathe out the stress of my life. In any case, 1 episode had the shop people putting an auto-shotgun (a Saiga) as an UNDERMOUNT on a AR-15 (aka M-16) rifle. The purpose of this weapon is to be a "Masterkey". The weapon's functional purpose was to have the undermount shotgun available as a door-breaching weapon coupled with the main weapon. This way, the person who is breaching the door does NOT have to switch weapons if they follow through or fall back after the door has been breached. Again, most law enforcement & gun enthusiasts think this idea isn't really worth it, let alone the strange cost of the weapon. I am NOT here to argue the point.

What I do want to know is for SR, if I wanted to mount another weapon over/under my main weapon... how should I figure the mount, slots/space & skills needed for this? Arsenal & the SR4A main book cover some types of weapon mods and mounts. Underbarrel grenade launcher, bola, grapple... heck even a flame thrower.

I am looking to do is mount a crossbow either on top of my rifle, or under the barrel of my rifle. Say, take an Ares Alpha, top-mount the crossbow, leave the grenade launcher under-mount. The purpose of this is for sneaking & hitting someone with a stealth shot/kill from the crossbow. If I miss, I can stick with my rifle & plainly shoot them as the surprise is gone. If I hit, then it's all good and onto the next.

Now I know rifles can be silenced & suppressed in SR very easily, so why bother with the crossbow. Silencers/suppressors give a -4, but must be replaced every so often. There is no perception check to hear a crossbow firing at all. I also see that I can equip the bolts with drugs/poisons/etc, so I can a lot of multi-use out of the crossbow. I would need to have additional clips, ammo skipping, & other stuff if I want to cycle through my ammo to get something quiet or non-lethal out of my main rifle.

I'm sure there are people here who can come up with better reasons & ways to get more multi-functional use out of my rifle... but I am very keen on this idea, if for just the cool stylish aspect of this.

So... would this be an exotic weapon to use or can projectile/archery cover this? Also how much would the cost be? The range? The Concealment penalty? Etc...

I would say it's an exotic weapon, yes. Cor conceal, I'd probably do something like worest rating + 1/2 of other..

See the "Underbarrel Weapon" modification, Arsenal, p. 153.

THANK YOU! That is what I was looking for. I recalled there was something like that, but no idea which book & where.

Or could could get the Nitama Optimum II or Ares Beta, both of which have one built into them.

The Masterkey system has been around for decades, BTW.

You're welcome. FYI, if I were your GM I'd make you install the Easy Breakdown (Powered) mod on the crossbow to represent the arms folding flat against the sides of the weapon. Otherwise, I'd rule that it isn't concealable at all.

Umm, no they don't.
KAC Masterkey has been part of standard armament for SWAT - and other teams commonly doing breaching for about 20+ years.

Not so useful for patrolmen or civilians, but breaching actions? Damn useful tool!

I still think a breaching charge is better, but I'm not in any kind of position to be doing those kinds of things, and grew up in a mining town so most solutions involve explosives.

I, like many other folks, found it hilarious when the guys in Sons of Guns kept acting like they'd invented the concept.




-k

Well, to be fair, it's the first time I've heard of a Saiga-12 Masterkey...

I directed more of my vitriol to the local yokel who joined the Gov funded SWAT Club and decided to play forced entry expert. Traditionally the guy blowing the lock is not going in, he gets out of the way. If you are short handed a small breaching charge is preferable, it allows everyone to be ready to go when it blows, if you rig it right you can hope for additional effects. Lastly shotguns have traditionally been used for CQB, so the need to switch to a high velocity, high capacity, semi, burst, assault rifle whose rounds will endanger neighboring structures, while adding length to the whole system speaks even more to me of this walking disaster of a SWAT Club member (note I use the word Club not Team).

As to the crossbow on top of your assault rifle, grenade launcher combo, I have one question...why not just carry a separate crossbow? I know in my game this idea would result in a long explanation as to why you do not really want to lug around a 10kg assault rifle, grenade launcher, crossbow system, with attendant sighting aids, in the ready position for any length of time.

The KAC masterkey is isn't the same as the Saiga/AR combo they used. Sure, both are shotguns undermounted on AR's... but the KAC looks to be more compact, flowing, & not as barrel heavy as the version from the TV show.



Not looking for a shotgun undermounted rifle, I was looking for a crossbow mounting.

For much of the same reasons listed for having to carry any sort of assortment of weapons. Space, location, time to switch out between, & weight. To have an "all-in-1" weapon that gives me the silent kill, the burst-fire-high-caliber hits, & the shock-n-awe of an explosive would be good. Sort of like that wonderful weapon from 5th Element.

Edit: removed a double posting & to fix my quotes.

To be fair Karma, if you pay attention to the show, he isn't claiming to "create" the masterkey, it's his "take" or twist to it. Its hard to miss, and i understand how you could think he's claiming its never been done before, but he's not

No he very clearly claims that the Masterkey is just a concept idea for an underbarrel shotgun and no-one has ever build one before.
With the lines like "This gun will literally change the way SWAT teams reach doors"
Its pretty clear he's claiming that such underbarrel shotguns don't exist.

Yes KAC masterkey is a more compact underbarrel shotgun model, but for example M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System is pretty much exactly the same think that they build in the show.

He a also says "They call it a masterkey.... not I or We are going to. <shrug> in this case I think people are being a bit nitpicky.

You mean that complete nightmare of an all in one which undoubtedly needed antigrav assist to be tactically deployed with any measure of reliability. The fact is that adding a crossbow to the mix results in impeded movement in any CQB environment, difficulty loading due to having to one arm a beastly heavy weapon, and lastly likely to interfere with the proper deployment and operation of the remaining parts, of course YMMV, as well as your GM's.

I see no impeded movements in CQB or the one arm issue as my "cybered/magical character" is perfectly capable of such a thing. So far my GM hasn't used or included any rules regarding weapon sizes in close quarters. I have been trying to look through all the rules regarding weight, encumbrance, & what happens in combat when carrying/using all sorts of items. So far, there's no impact on using an outrageously sized weapon unless you're in melee. If you know of NON-OPTIONAL rules that are supposed to be used, please let me know.

All you had to say was "Pink Mohawk", and it would have all been clear

I wish my game was "Pink Mohawk". Then I know how to classify it. I don't even know what/how to classify it. Our GM recently (ie last game) banned Stick-n-Shock b/c of how overpowered it was against metahumans, drones, & spirits (this is after I can't recall how many sessions we've been using the stuff & we've said this ammo was talked a lot on this forum). We're playing a "dark dystopia", with human trafficking, drugs, prostitution... but when we try to get dark/gritty, we get questioned for it. Not admonished, just questioned. Causes a lot of self-doubt about what our GM has in mind for us.

My own hope was to play SR like I read in the old novels by Findley, Charette, & company. Runners were a step-up from street scum. They had ethics & values. Mercenaries with a code & rep that was respected. A "romanticized" version of Shadowrun I guess. Lately my game sessions with my fellow players & GM have been... beyond description.

I agree that a modded Ares Alpha with top-mounted x-bow, undermounted grenade launcher, integral smartgun system & gas vent does make it a super heavy, unweildy weapon that no human being could possible hold up & fire with any accuracy. However, this game does have magic & cyberware... so stretching reality/physics isn't too far.

Arsenal says all weapons only have a max of 6 compartments/slot (GM fiat allows for more/less) to accomodate mods. So the 5th Element weapon just isn't possible. Crossbow, bola, flame thrower, icing spray, net launcher, along with full auto smart rounds that can turn 180 to hit the designated target... not available in SR. Yet.

As for the rules, your concept is sadly not possible. "Arsenal" says you cannot add an underbarrel weapon to an underbarrel weapon, and that no modification and accessory of the same type can simultaneuosly be installed. I really think that the Ares Alpha standard grenade launcher counts as an accessory, so...
You could still talk to your GM, though. Maybe even agree to some side-effects of such a huge weapon platform, say, concealability: "nope.", great weight etc. I don't think it's all impossible to create such a weapon.
Personally, I'd rather use two weapons with a string each, the crossbow maybe even modified to be lightweight. Well, my characters are usually lightweight, too, so it comes naturally.

Actually it counts as a mod
"If an off -the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades
like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc., it is assumed that those
upgrades are modifications instead of accessories."

As whether or not you can add underbarrel weapon on to weapon witsh allready has an under barrel weapon, depend on how strictly your GM reads the following "Please note that a fi rearm can only hold one upgrade of a type, either from a modification or from an accessory", IMO an underbarrel grenade launcher and underbarrel shotgun aren't a same type of an upgrade.

And the OP did not want another underbarrel weapon but an overbarrel one. The mod does not exist per RAW but that's where a crossbow should be mounted, so it makes sense.

OK, I have an honest question: When doing breaching, why not just use a Troll?

This is insane.

THIS. IS. DUMPSHOCK!

...

Wasn't there a bottomless pit here awhile ago?

...

Oh, the movers had to put paneling over it to pain the ceiling. I see.

So hard to find good help these days. Still, yes: it's basically saying, 'the rules clearly say no, but I say fish sausages'.

All you have to to get an over barrel weapon is to apply the underbarrel weapon mod to your assault rifle and mount it under the crossbow

Why is it insane, underbarrel grenade launcher and underbarrel shotgun are quite clearly not the same think.

And yet the Underbarrel Weapon Modification in Arsenal is not specific to a particular Weapon Type. Ergo, The two mods that are being discussed are, indeed, the exact same modification.

You mean the mod is applied to the mounted weapon, not the main one? I have always played it the other way.

Anyway, in that case, it's not possible: the underbarrel assault rifle cannot have an underbarrel grenade launcher

Muffin Button.

Since the Area Alpha all ready has an undermount weapon, then adding a crossbow is not possible. However, if I was to choose some other rifle, the AK97, FN HAR, or some rifle w/o an undermount, I could then add the crossbow. Then I can get my crossbow/rifle weapon which allows for silent/tactical shooting & regular assault shooting.

Ah the AK-97, is there nothing it can't do?

It has a really hard time driving Nails. Not accurate enough...

Thats what the butt end is for

Hard to drive nails at 150 Meters with the Butt of the weapon, though.

You just need a troll then.



-k

I guess... Can a Troll Drive Nails at 150 Meters with the Butt of a Rifle? They must be a better racial choice than I thought.

Is solution to that in Russia: Get more bullets.

They always squirm and struggle when you swing them at the nails. More trouble than they're worth, really.

No need for tools: he just stares at the nails and they cower in the wood.

So Trolls are the Mr. Popo of Shadowrun? (Dragonball Z Abridged.).

Heh. I could see that...

Just get a double barrel shotgun with an under-barrel double barrel shotgun. Phantasm don't cha know.

Side-by-side, actually. And cut into a reverse-V. With a single trigger.

Clear out a room, but forever to reload.

Still trying to figure out, if I do mount a crossbow under the barrel of my rifle, which skill do I use when firing it? Exotic weapon, archery, or automatic/long arm?

Automatics for the rifle and archery for the crossbow.

Thanks.

Quick addendum... the undermount weapon needs to be purchased seperately & be built into the primary weapon. Can the undermount have any modifications on it as well? Can my undermounted crossbow have it's own laser sigh? Camera upgrade if smartlinked? Etc...