So the rules for the Living Persona specifically say it acts as a commlink with stats based off your mental attributes and a hot sim capable sim module. But if that Technomancer wants to be a Rigger (with bonuses) he immediately has to sacrifice the ability to start the game with 6 resonance by installing a 0.5 essence cost Control Rig.

At a Missions table at a Con where the rules have to be used exactly as written to keep things from getting out of hand houserule wise I can understand that. But what about at your home tables? Do you allow TMs who have a closer tie to the Matrix then any Decker or Hacker could have to have get the Control Rig bonuses without having to implant one (ie: let the Living Persona mimic it like it does the sim module and commlink)? If so, do you let them mimic anything else like Image Link or Simsense booster?

Yes I can see that Unwired has the Immersion Echo, but why is it a +1 bonus that can be taken twice (making it extremely expensive Karma wise) instead of a +2 bonus taken once?

Because it's better than the control rig, stacks with it, and no rigger *needs* it.

Nobody is forced to take that +2 bonus, so if a player decides to forego a point of Resonance for implants, he'll have to pay for it.


TMs have an integrated Sim Module, no need for an Image Link

As far as having other implants as CFs are concerned, I'd only allow it if one could conceivably write a program to do the same thing. For example, a program which records all data fed into the machine it runs on is sensible so there is a Simrig CF. However, you can't really write a program which executes orders faster than they'd normally would, so no Simsense Booster or Control Rig as Complex Form.

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4352.0

UmaroVI doesn't agree that Resonance 6 is impractical for a dronomancer, but mandatory, apparently. Frankly, to me, the numbers presented speak for themselves. Screw 'ware. You don't NEED anything other than your MurderThoughts^™ to be the juggernaut of the Matrix.

MurderThoughts is a trademark of CanRay.

The reason why is that resonance is the hard cap on your threading and increases your ability to resist fade (the true limiter on how high you can thread). Since you're paying a ton of points for the ability to thread (the reason to be a technomancer besides sprites), you want to use it for all it's worth. Effective technomancy has you aim for the best fade resist you can get so you can thread program ratings way higher than any hacker (ideally 12 at creation).

The other thing is that jumping in is a terrible way to rig especially for a technomancer. Since command rigging uses command for everything, you get the normal +2 hot sim VR bonus like jumping in along with the crazy high rating Command program. Would you rather have Command 10-12 + skill + 2 hot sim or Drone Response/Signal 3-6 (not higher than 6 without trying hilarious amounts of cash) + skill + 2 hot sim + 2 control rig? These also doesn't factor in codeslinger (Command Device) for another possible +2 to command.

Obviously, if you use Command munchkinism there's no need to jump in and hence nothing to be gained from a Control Rig

Exactly, Hida: jump-in Technomancers are *already* crap at it, compared to their alternatives.

*replaces keyboard* Well damn.. and to think.. I named my Dronomancer RC as in Remote Control..

Why in the world would anyone ever WANT to jump into a drone given all this..

Is it even munchkinism? I mean buying Command 6 with optimization 2-3 isn't that hard to do nor unusual. That alone makes you as good as a jumped in rigger with a control rig without worrying about feedback damage nor having to upgrade the response and signal of a non-military drone. That said, with a lot of work and money, you can make jumped in mundane riggers work. But the amounts you'll need are quite high except in the richest of games.

And Yerameyahu, yeah I know I'm not the only or the first to say it. I'm just another singer who sings Dirge for the Rigger.

Using interpretations like "I can reroll Threading until I get 6+ successes" certainly is.

No, even if you houserule Infinity Threading away, RC riggers are still way better than jumped-in riggers. Also, unless you have a lot of magical and mundane healing onhand, you don't really want to be keeping that many successes anyways because you have to soak the fade. The idea is to just thread 2-3 points most of the time, and use Assist Operation for important stuff, not to overthread yourself into 6P every time you want to do anything.

In point of fact, even mundane riggers are better off remote controlling than jumping in. It really has nothing to do with Infinity Threading.

Even without infinity threading, the points still stand. Resonance now factors into the now important threading roll as well. You'll be rolling at least 12 dice (Resonance 6 + Software 4 + Analytic Mind 2) for 4 hits on average for Command 10. That's still more than enough to beat jumped in riggers as I point out before Command 6 is enough to make it debatable.

But at that point it's only poor rules design and not obvious munchkinism

Also TMs get a +2 to their dice while hot simmed. Kind of negates not having the rigger control gear should they go into the drone.

TMs can make awesome riggers.

That said, with Dice Caps in place, most other folks can get to be pretty much just as good.

I mean, if I can get my Pixie with rigger stats in the 16-24 pool range, the Missions dice cap mean that the Technomancer isn't much better.






-k

If you allow 7+ rated programs from WAR!, mundane RC riggers can compete at it with technomancers. What it tends to come down to is that mundane RC riggers are faster, but don't have Machine Sprites to help them out. Also, Technomancer riggers are also going to be very good hackers (not as good as a hacking-focused TM, but better than a mundane hacker still), whereas a mundane rigger can manage to not suck so hard when not in a drone.

My GM lets technoriggers take Control Rig as an unrated complex form. Because TM's already demonstrate abilities to mimic other cyberware implants of the same essence cost (simrig, smartlink), and because, frankly, it makes sense for a dronomancer.

*nod* I was going to talk to my GM about letting me simulate it also because from what I can tell reading it, the Control Rig helps interpret and translate data more then it speeds things along.

Everybody gets that bonus. TMs get another +2 to Matrix Perception tests, but that only covers perceiving the matrix (ie. Computer + Analyze), not perceiving something though sensor data transmitted via the matrix.

As for jumping in vs. using Command, there are still some advantages despite the power of Command 12+:
1. More Actions. Even if you just fire full auto bursts, you still need to do stuff like perception tests,, moving the drone, or taking aim.
2. Spoof-Proof. Because your GM will gladly copy your charsheet and just replace "Command" with "Spoof"
3. Actually being inside the drone is just way more cool than playing with a RC toy

The line from Matrix Perception on page 228 4A says "Technomancers receive an inherent +2 dice pool on all Matrix Perception Tests"

Page 245 4A Controlling Drones, Jumped in: "All Actions by a rigger who has jumped into a drone (or other device) are considered Matrix actions, and receive the benefit of the +2 dice bonus due to hot sim VR use."

Right. The +2 bonus for all Matrix tests for hot sim is covered under the section for Hot Sim on SR4A p226, I believe. TMs happen to always get that one, by virtue of always being in hot sim (same page). The bit on 228 about Matrix Perception Tests is separate and distinct.

Hold on, I think you might be onto something here. I just put 2 and 2 together in a way i hadn't before.




Yeah, so techno's get extra dice on matrix perception - and that extends to rigging too, because you can have Perception tests(astral and analyze) without rolling the Perception skill. But only while jumped in.

Nifty.

Exactly, Matrix Perception. What that means is described on page 228 of the BBB.

That directly contradicts the line about being jumped in and it saying that ALL ACTIONS while jumped in are Matrix Actions. So you have to make a choice, are your rules permissive (well, it doesn't say you can't do it or this place lists what is what but this place says that this is included, so i guess you can.. I refer you the The Gamers and backstabing with a Ballista) or nonpermissive (rules don't say you can so you can't).

A Matrix Perception test is not a Perception test. You get +2 on Matrix Perception tests, whether jumped in or not. That means if someone else is in your drone's node you get a +2 to Matrix Perceive them. Matrix Perception is not Perception any more than it's Assensing.

There are already plenty of ways to get your Perception tests off the charts, without this… misinterpretation.

Not really. See the Perceptive quality, and is also backed up by similiar wording on the Reception Enhancer.

Perception Tests include Matrix Perception, physical Perception, Astral Perception - they are all Perception tests, like a category of test types, just like Vehicle or Matrix, despite not actually rolling the skill of the same name when you actually look underneath the hood at the rules for the dice pools that go into each of those tests.

With jumped in rigging, the test types you are making are both Vehicle Test AND Matrix Tests.

So a Sensor roll is normally a Perception test, which BECOMES a Matrix Perception test.

While I typically agree with Miri's point about permissive vs prohibited rulesets, that you can have a test be multiple types simultaneously is a nuance that a lot of people don't seem to properly grasp.

That is a really shaky argument that relies on poor wording, and even then, it's a nice side benefit, not the reason you're a technomancer.

I can't see a contradiction there. Looking through a drone's sensors is a Matrix Action, but it's not a Matrix Perception action. Matrix Perception is used for looking at icons in the matrix, not for looking at stuff which is merely transmitted over the matrix. Or would you say that watching an Urban Brawl game is covered by Matrix Perception, because TV is probably streamed over the matrix?

I just want to agree that "Matrix Perception" is different than "A perception action that is also a matrix action", for example: one uses analyze, the other perception. The problem here is using "Matrix Perception" as a term rather than "Analyzesensing" or something silly.

Udoshi, the (oddly permissive/loopholey) wording of those things doesn't have bearing on the 'Matrix Perception vs. Perception' question. Until those loopholes are fixed, feel free to use them, but it doesn't make a Matrix Perception test (analyzing nodes) out of regular Perception tests, Sensor-based or otherwise.

It really boils down to what RAI RAW is.

Is matrix perception just when analyzing the nodes or does it include perception checks when using sensors linked to the node?

IMHO: I'd go witht he permissive version since a +2 dice rally isn't going to break the game.

It's another +2 of (I think literally) the easiest pool to boost into the stratosphere. In that sense, yes, it probably won't matter, because it's impossible for them to miss anything already. That's not a great reason to make it worse, though.

Still, I'm not making a game balance argument, because the RAW is quite clear about what a 'Matrix Perception test' is. There's a whole section heading for it on p228, as people have already said; the section even includes a pretty long list of example Matrix Perception data, and gives several explicit 'you may use' options for the Matrix Perception test.

I can see how someone would be confused by that (truly stupid) rule about jump-in transforming actions into Matrix actions. I think it's insane that someone would really try to convince the GM that being jumped-in gives them a bonus on, say, coding unrelated software, negotiating with a fence, designing an airplane, etc. But, players will try *anything*.

You do NOT get astral perception checks while in matrix space or hopped into a drone (unless riding it as a possession shaman).