Looking for some advice on building/using a mage/shaman.

I've looked around on this board and noticed lots of commentary about how scary-powerful mages are. But every time I've tried playing them, either as a PC or NPC villians, they tend to be like low-level D&D wizards: a few neat tricks, limited endurance, and generally crunchy in the face of any real threat. My last attempt drained himself unconscious a few turns into a run and spent the majority of the session napping in the back of the rigger's van. Kinda pathetic.

New game coming up, the build I'm looking at is a team-oriented general-purpose shaman, and I want to get the most out of him without going into munchkin territory or stepping on the roles of other team members. So maxed mental stats, wimpy physical, spell list of Mana Bolt, Stun Bolt, Heal, Improved Invis, and Trid Phantasm all at force 5. No cyber or bio to keep my magic rating up and astral endurance.

This still feels like he's gonna be limited though. What should I adjust, and where should I dump any karma once I earn it?

Also, while this is SR3, the principles are shared with the world and spell lists of SR4, even if the dice mechanics are different. And I'm less looking for numerical min/maxing (though that does apply) and more getting right the fundamental principles and useful tricks of the mage role. So even if you don't know SR3 at all, share your SR4 ideas.

Thanks in advance.

PS: Assume I'm an idiot when it comes to acronyms and SR4 mechanics. I've read it but never used it so its not second-nature.

One big, huge difference between SR4 and SR3 is that in SR3, spells are bought at a specific Force. And for any spell you plan on using regularly, you want it at Force: 6. Three big reasons for this:

First, if you want to raise the Force, you have to buy a brand new spell. You don't pay the difference; you pay the full cost for the new spell.

Second, the spell's Force is the TN for resisting the spell. So against a Force: 5 spell, you resist it on any dice that come up 5 or 6. For a Force: 6 spell, you resist it on a 6. In other words, the Force: 6 spell is twice as hard to resist as the Force: 5 spell.

Finally, if you get a high Force spell, you have the option of casting it at that Force or lower. But you can't cast a low Force spell higher.

This isn't actually true, for what it's worth.


This is pretty much your problem, IMO; much like Riggers, Mages excel at doing stuff that archetypes do nearly as well, if not as well/better. Also, "munchkin territory" is poorly-defined; do you put the line closer to "taking a Trauma Damper" or "outright cheating"?


I should say so. Max out Quickness; in my experience, the only reason to take fewer than 30 points of Attributes is to make a 1/1/1/8/8/8 Otaku. What build system are you using? If Point, check whether the GM uses the recommendation (not rule) capping Attribute points at 30. What do you have for skills?


IMO, this is a huge mistake. You can get all kinds of utility out of a point of Essence or two of 'ware, and either geas the loss away or focus on low-Force utility spells. In particular, a Trauma Damper is basically a free -1 DL to every Drain test (well, at least if you don't go into Physical drain).


Force 5 is mediocre for spells that will be resisted; you make your Drain test slightly easier in general, but make resisting twice as easy.

I'd give serious thought to whether you really want to spend the points on Mana Bolt; you can't use it on anything you can't Stun Bolt, it's resisted by the same attribute, the drain is less friendly, and you can shoot things if you need to make them dead.

Improved Invis is notorious; check how your GM plays II/OR interactions, as there may simply not be a reason to take more than Force 1.

Trid Phantasm has some nasty Drain. If it's what you want go for it, but if you aren't committed to the idea Levitate and Magic Fingers at low Force (even F1) can give a lot of utility while still leaving you some spell points left over.

For Heal: first, do you really think you're going to use it at Force 5? Even at the best case (someone with 5 boxes of damage and 6 Essence) you're looking at 2M drain while still needing to throw at least 10 dice to expect to max out the Force effect. Remember, also, that they can be First Aided before. My usual approach is to take Force 3 Heal, Exclusive for cost (1 spell point).

~J

My bad then.

Trying not to be a better straight-up killer than the sam's territory, or better at stealth than the covert-ops guy. More like be able to help what they're good at, while being the one they turn to for magical threats. Making sure everyone at the table has somewhere where they are The Man relative to the rest of the team. And when I say munchkin, I think of the last scary mage I played with who had tons and tons of F1 spells and a big power focus. Anchored improve-attribute +4x6, tons of utility spells, and just dice-spammed everything to death. Sure, target number to resist his spells was 2, but when he had 8 successes and no drain he always won. Outdid everyone at everything by cheesing the system, and I refuse to be That Guy.

Point-based, attributes 2/4/2/6/6/6, skills Sorcery and Conjuring both at 6, Aura Reading at 4.

Picked up Mana Bolt cause it just seemed like the mage's bread-and-butter, the magic equivalent of the Ingram Smartgun. But yeah I see your point.
How is Invis notorious? Whats II/OR?
Trid Phantasm was more picked up for utility-as-illusion? I dunno, seemed useful, and looked like it needed to be high-force to be convincing?
Healing; true, I didn't run the numbers.

Again in no particular order:

It has some nice potential, but at +1(D) Drain it's extremely hard to get it to live up to that potential—even with a Trauma Damper you're looking at needing six successes to avoid taking Drain. What's your Totem, by the way?


Ok, the anchored Improve Attribute is unusual (not to mention risky—Anchoring has all kinds of nasty drawbacks IMO), and the big power focus is usually more the dream than the reality, but the rest is substantially the Mage's Playbook™; it's the ease with which mages can do that sort of thing that's a big part of their reputation for power.


It's iconic, but unfortunately the designers were not always detail-oriented enough to ensure that iconic things were worth using (see cyberlimbs—I think the only legitimate use of canon cyberlimbs I've seen yet is Doc Funk's approach of taking something like a cyberpegleg and cramming it full of electronics).


Out of how many points total? Any Edges/Flaws? I'd recommend rethinking Aura Reading, especially since you haven't exhausted your options for raising INT (toss in Bonus Attribute Point); it's nice, but with Build Points as tight as they look to be for you I don't think it's pulling its weight. Especially since you only have it at 4; it was the "go 6 or go home" dilemma that finally drove me to do a rework of BeCKS.

Speaking of which, if you can live with yourself afterwards I'd recommend taking a point off of BOD and STR and putting them into QCK. It is a sad but inescapable fact that restoring 2s in those stats post-chargen will take a mere 8 karma, while bringing QCK up to 6 post-chargen would cost 22 karma—nearly three times as much.


Improved Invisibility is the classic spell that gets taken at Force 1, then cast (typically before going into danger) with so many dice that essentially all reasonable opposition will simply not have enough dice to resist, even with all successes. A key issue is that there's a disputed (or possibly just often-overlooked) interpretation of the rules by which II is subject to the rules for overcoming Object Resistance, which makes Force 1 II equivalent to just Invisibility since it can't overcome the OR of any recording device (well, unless the opposition makes recording devices out of natural wood and rock).


That'll be tricky. Ironically, you can easily make yourself better at stealth than the covert-ops guy in all situations except those involving magical threats. My usual approach is to trust other players to do their own character optimization, but if you can't do that… I'm not sure. I think above all you need to hold true to the commandment "thou shalt not be afraid to be awesome"; avoiding spotlight-stealing is something that can usually be done in gameplay, while holding back too much on designing in strengths is something that's essentially unfixable given typical campaign karma awards.

~J

6 is the max attributes allowed in this game without racial bonuses or buying Exceptional Attribute first. Totem thinking either Coyote or Racoon, basing off of personality over die pools.

Also, any other spells anyone has found particularly useful?

Magic Fingers can be quite a nice tool. Obviously you can use it to hand-place or manipulate items in remote locations (insert a card in reader, unscrew a light bulb, open a tap or a door, or put a grenade exactly where you need it...), but it can also be used for diversions - like a tap on the shoulder, a pinch on the butt of a waitress close by, a tipped over drink...

Levitate can come in handy when you need to move something heavy and the team powerlifter is not available - one of my characters once overcasted (and Edged) it to lift a small car over a 6-meter concrete wall so we could escape though another route than the (heavily defended) front door when our infiltration was noticed and the fireworks began.

Re: Mana bolt and Stun bolt: as you see, there's absolutely no reason to take both these spells. If you must have two combat spells, take Ball Lightning or Lightning Bolt: the drain is much heftier, but it will take out drones and electronics like squishing bugs.

So the GM has outlawed Bonus Attribute Point?


Remember, the two go hand in hand—pool bonuses/penalties are reflective of the traits of the totem. Now, not all shamans reflect the personalities of their totem, and it can be interesting to play that tension, but a Raccoon shaman with no Manipulation spells?

It's also important to keep in mind that, in a game as goal-oriented as Shadowrun, it ultimately doesn't matter how pure the concept is if they can't get things done. As a thought experiment, consider why you don't take a lower score for INT or WIL. My usual guideline is to come up with a decent statline, then derive an appropriate personality/background from that.


Drain's nasty, but Foreboding is the premier area-denial spell and can be used to completely shut down melee opposition. Hot Potato is great fun (and has the side bonus of allowing the team 'sam to be the one to actually shoot the now-disarmed opposition). Catalog has a lot of utility, though you should only take it if your GM is at least decent at coming up with a lot of minor detail quickly. Physical Camouflage is light on Drain (free with a Trauma Damper) and makes you difficult to hit.

~J