My players will take any run I throw at them (Partly because I think they think it's the only one I have prepared) What are some examples of runs that every runner with half a brain should outright refuse?

Hmmm

Anything that involves any two or more of the following:

A unknown Johnson (J's have to remain anonymous for the system to work, but somebody should at least be willing to give you a straight read on this guy. Stay away from J's the nobody knows nothing about).
Special/dangerous requirements (Touch only X, you must begin the run in 15 mins, extraction target must remain conscious)
No/insufficient up front money.

These arn't complete ironclad rules but for runs that the runners don't have a personal investment in they would be guidelines I'd recommend to people in the SR verse.

Put another way: Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt.

You think it's a metagame problem (they think you only have one run prepared), so clear and unambiguous communication, out-of-game, is what is called for here.

I think you need to tell the players that their characters have the right, in-game, to turn down jobs that sound suspicious, don't pay enough for the risk, or go against whatever moral code, if any, the group has (burning down orphanages, etc.). And also warn them that you will be pitching the occasional "bad" run to them.

The Grab from missions worries me - 3 days to carry out an extraction with a very specific "no harm to the extractee" clause, and potentially all you have is the name of the victim...

Three days isn't long to find out about the vic's security arrangements etc, obtain specialist equipment and then carry out the grab...

In a previous campaign I ran in the GM had a game he liked to play with us. It was to make us say "We really shouldn't have taken this job" earlier and earlier each run.
The last run in this slowly escalating chain of bad decisions was as follows:

Johnson: Obvious constantly grinning steel Cyberskull with AR fluorescent green insects flying in and out of the eyes and ears. He gives us a real name that we trace back to a corp exec who was murdered and beheaded approximately two weeks ago who is a visual match to the Johnson.

The run: Take this box, shielded with wifi-negation, electronic hardening, MAD shielding, high density material(No Radar), high level mana barrier so you have no idea what is in it and can't and, using a submarine I have parked in the harbor, drive out to a Saeder-Krup run free island off the coast open it, and then follow all instructions inside.

The response: No taking runs from Johnson's with Creepy, Rating 6.

In addition to Lurker's post (above) I dislike any runs where the Johnson has the gear I'll need prepared in advance.

Green insects flying in and out of eyes and ears?!

Not Shadowrun, and not quite walked away, but there was a Star Wars game where we had the accountant do the budget for the mission (We were a Privateer Corporation and had to answer to the shareholders. Namely, the heavily armed crew! This was before Schlock Mercenary, BTW), and found out that it wasn't worth our time, not even paying for maintenance.

We polled the crew, and the end result was: "You know what, we'll do it any way. We're bored. Oh, and good cause and all that. Mostly the bored part, however." The look on the GM's face as we went through all of these actions was priceless.

Turned out to be an AI codenamed "Mantis." We never figured out why but the bug imagery seemed to be some sort of compulsion.

We had one that had us all going into Portland, back in the day. Most of us were not elves. Everyone just had a really bad feeling and we turned him down and walked out of the meet. And it turned out it was the right call.

I once gave the PCs a job that involved going out to a cabin, on a lake in the woods, and investigate what happened there. The characters weren't there 5 minutes, and their Driver (an NPC they hired to get them there. As none knew how to drive at that point) was killed, on his way out of there (they didn't miss him, all he did was make passes at the female characters). One of them heard the crash, and went to investigate, meting up with some huge shadow in the woods. Levelling his gun, he asks the shadow who he is. The shadow turns around, and throws it's machete at the character, getting imbeded in the PC's shoulder.

Turns out, what happened was an old-school slaughter of the Governor's daughter and her friends by a spirit inhabiting the dead body of a Giant in a hockey mask and a worker's jumpsuit.

Edit: Alright, this isn't a run they turned their backs on, but they probably should have.

We had one run, where all but one refused to work with said one character.
GM and players faces were priceless, when we started an impromptu LAN-Party without them.

Mysterious Johnson offered the group access to things they'd likely never see otherwise; betaware for the samurai, a loaner t-bird for the rigger, I forget the rest but I remember it equally WOW. The runners politely backed away as quickly as possible.

In character, we figured anyone offering us a deal that good seemingly that easily is either sending us on a suicide run or planning on making us indentured servants bound to the whims of something much bigger than us. Given what had just happened in the campaign world (Denver '62), we particularly didn't want to risk breaking the 4th Runner Commandment.

OOC, I'm sure we just completely screwed up the GM's campaign plot hook. Campaign didn't last long after that. But it was the right thing to do IC.

I'm always a li'l worried about J's who seem like they really want us to commit to a job before divulging more details. There's nothing worse than a J that is naive AND paranoid. One time my decidedly pink mohawk group walked away from a job just for that reason, which was pretty amazing and required a herculean choke by the Johnson. We were all itching to play and our Street Samurai player at least would likely have signed onto a job even if given little more information than "I need you to do a snatch and grab at a triple A facility."

In the game that I am currently playing in I have had a few thoughts about saying no to a few runs, it has come down to the fact that "I" want to play as the reason that my character has said yes. The rest of the group that I am with will say yes to anything, we are actually about to go for a drive from Seattle to the shatter graves for a snatch and grab on an ex-marine and we getting paid 50,000 for the job

Sure there is.

One that's paranoid and pretending to be naive.

Touché.

We were in Seattle, and there was some sort of internal Mafia Mob war brewing. So one Johnson (A) who we'd worked for before calls us about a job, and another Johnson (B) as well.

When we get to talking with A, he tells us that before he'll tell us more, he wants us all to accept a cranial bomb because the mission is so secret.

So we walked out.




.... then B's mission was just all about killing Johnson A. Who we'd just let slip away. Grr.

I am really amazed at how much you guys seem to want beforehand. Things like "3 days isn't long enough" and wanting to know all the details about a job beforehand or being suspicious because the Johnson offers support equipment for the job?

My opinion is that is what being a runner is about: you are going to take the job that is dangerous and often the job that "sane" people would turn down. That is WHY runners exist. You need a job done and you need it right now... hire a runner team. Often getting the job done actually depends on the mark going "But who in their right mind would even attempt...?" It's all about surprise, having the skills and being willing to do the things no one else would think possible. Runners aren't expected to live forever. That's what makes it sweet when your character succeeds and that's why you develop a street rep after a while. Sure your Johnson is gonna try to screw you... probably more than half the time. That's where the sweetness lies: Do the job, make the money, don't get screwed and watch your Johnson take the fall for the bad shit he lined up against you, all the while absolutely no clues point to you for his undoing.

Give anyone enough intel, enough prep time and enough support and they can rob a bank successfully. A runner should be able to come up with a plan in a couple hours, pull it off, pin it on someone else and the robbery was only a diversion from the REAL job, which was doing something like stealing the bank manager's house keys so that you can bug his house to get information on a mob pal of his about which horse is supposed to win in the 6th race on Sunday.

Vlad

And then, bet the stolen money on the horse race...

I had a group of runners refuse to take a run against Doc Wagon to steal some numbered samples because they all had Doc Wagon contracts and would not burn their employer.

Why do you think DocWagon advertises to Shadowrunners?

Shadowrunners pay *THEM* to not perform Shadowruns on them.

I had a character who's serious GF was a honcho with KE. We didn't hit Ares or KE protected/contracted sites, but she got us a lot of "well, we can't officially investigate this..." jobs.

While I know pretty much what the do's and don't's for a runner are, I've never heard of any Commandments? Link? This a Dumpshock thing?

The only thing we are about to refuse (future-speaking) is "track down and put a tail on somebody for about a week". Our team is called "fight-club" and if nothing is blowing up into pieces or people are shreddered into red dust, we don´t want to do the job.^^

Keep your head down, Shoot straight, Watch your back, and Never, EVER Deal with a dragon.

I'm slowly attuning my group to some measure of paranoia. But of course I think about an exit strategy if they turn a job down - mostly there will be some hook to keep them going if that happens. Or I just let them do some other criminal thing.

Now personally, I'm for turning runs down that begin with
- "it'll be easy" and
- "I need someone for a SPECIAL job",
but then these are really no-brainers.

That and if the J gives nothing up front, or just a measly percentage. No trust given means no trust offered. If he's not willing to take half the risk, then I don't see that I have to take all the risk.

Now I know GMs who will then just smile, and let you pay month after month of lifestyle until you are ready to take just about anything.

That's when you start killing people, selling them for spare-parts, take over their lifestyle and sell their stuff like cars for spare parts . .

Yeah. I'll do that. Of course, my players generally start looking for work before time comes to call in the rent and they don't have it. Sometimes I throw them a bone, and give them just enough to make payments.

Yeah, I know, that's what we did back then... the trouble is that the GM can still tune prices to always screw you over - even if he just follows the rules to the letter.

Actually, that particular guy wasn't even trying to be a dick (in that respect), it was actually his philosophy: If a shadowrunner isn't scraping the bottom of the can then he as the GM is doing something wrong. This was the same guy that said "enjoy the stuff you get at chargen, because you never, EVER are going to get so many shiny things again." He was quite lenient at chargen, too...

Milk runs. I have a deep fear of milk runs. Why is this guy offering 5 grand up front for a milk run? We're all going to die.

If your GM is dysfunctional, talk to him about it.

Because I play missions I do not turn any jobs down. However the ones I would turn down are:

Anything off this plane of existence
Alcheras on a general rule
Anonymous Johnsons with special requests and less than 10,000ny pay

I'm pretty sure that if I could get my group back together again, they'd refuse any 'Runs that send them to LA ever again.

No one should accept any runs that go to LA. Too much Horizon, and too many people with cameras trying to make themselves the next Big Thing in 'Running

Too many Shadowruns involving the Magic Kingdom and trips to Aztlan to rescue Batman...

Right, but if you're hiring runners you've already stuck your foot in it and are taking risks anyway, so you might as well say what you want in plain terms. God knows the team will be checking out your story anyway, so you might as well be forthcoming. I don't even give a crap about motive; I just want to know what you need us to do before you start whining about whether we're in or not while squirming around like someone's holding your ass over a griddle. I'll still probably do the job if the pay is good but that kinda thing makes my runner-sense tingle.

One of the first games I ran as a GM was supposed to have the players running a mission for a start-up weapons development company that was competing against Ares for a military contract. I had figured they would have jumped at the opportunity to stick it to the man and work for the underdog.

The response was something along the lines of "Fuck that, we're not about to piss Ares off!" Wasn't a big deal, they ended up running the mission from the other side, working for Ares to crush the upstarts.

And that's how the Megas stay on top. Even the anti-social, borderline-sociopathic, Neo-@narchistic mercenaries who shoot people in the face for money don't want to mess with them at all.

which also reenforces my belief that Shadowrunners aren't the heroes of the sixth world.

They're not.

They're protagonists.

And everyone knows the protagonist can be the villain (Excel Saga for a nice comedic viewpoint on that, or Dexter for the Sociopath view)

Do some groups get so scared of the AAAs, that they don't want to run against them?

I'm talking actual player groups, not NPCs of course. Because occasionally on Dumpshock there's this "they're AAA, they're so good, you can't possibly win" sentiment going.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that specific example at least, if robbing banks and getting awy with it was so easily runners wouldn't be runners they'd be bank robbers.

I linked Heat up there because that's been my template for most medium to big time shadowruns for a while now, any job worth doing will require planing and and execution, finesse and force. Some jobs aren't worth doing for the money your employer is willing to pay you. Some jobs (banks in specific) the opposition is going to hunt you for a long long time, so that increases the cost metric. All jobs can be done, but not all jobs are worth doing. A lot of jobs the security is going to be good enough that your going to have to line up an excellent plan in order to pull it off. Nothing about shadowrunners makes them able to do that faster or better then anyone else, their skills and talents are what gets them able to do the job.

All that's before you throw J's who are out to work you over in the mix.

Before I go, I want to make sure you let your readers know that shadowrunning isn’t all glamour, sex, and wealth. Sure, sometimes people will manage to get that for themselves. Sometimes, we don’t choose the jobs, the jobs choose us. Sometimes, we get to stick it to The Man. Sometimes, we rob from the rich and give to the poor. Sometimes, we’re the only thing standing between some innocent family and a corporate cleanup squad, a raving blood mage, or a hive of insect spirits. Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money." - Runner's Companion, Page 5

I agree with you on the highlighted sentiment and I hope you realize there was a bit of hyperbole there to make a point. I was trying to point out a drift I was hearing in many of the early comments that made runners sound like really whiny prima donnas that want every thing handed to them on a platter and guaranteed success. A lot of the time a Johnson hires a runner group because a really bad situation has just cropped up that needs attention right NOW before it blows up. Therefore, he seeks out professionals that are skilled and trained at impromptu solutions. Time is of the essence and the details are going to be scarce in the handling of a delicate situation when dealing with unknowns and a time crunch.

As far as the bank setup went, I was exaggerating. More what would be likely is that the runners would stage a quick "holdup" of the bank that need not be monetarily successful. Just the cash in the drawers concept to buy time for the real crime of lifting the keys. Then, run out the door, throwing the cash to the crowd outside and proclaiming some sort of Robin Hood-y type motive (and naming some group of people's terrorist org that they have no affiliation with) and fade away in the commotion. More to the point, who actually robs banks in the 2070's anyway?

I guess what I am trying to say is that while runners are professionals, they are professionals in the business of impromptu, high risk jobs that most people would never do. Runners may be thieves and assassins, getaway drivers, mercenaries and con men. However not all of those professions are Shadowrunners. It's the high-risk, low information, short notice jobs that define a large portion of the career. True Shadowrunners are elite BECAUSE they can pull these things off on a very short notice with the (perceived) odds against them.

Vlad

True, but you can't do a job without at least some intel.

If the Johnson can't provide intel, he needs to provide time to *get* the intel.

In "The Grab" the runners are given a name and picture of a victim and nothing else. The victim is too young to be on electoral roles, property lists, phone directories or driving licence databases so is possibly harder to track down than an average adult, depending on how hard the GM wants to make it.

They are told that during the kidnapping the victim must not be hurt at all - again, depending on the GM, this might preclude tasering, narcoject, neurostun or tranq-patches, meaning that the victim may have to be taken alive *and* awake, which adds another level of complication.

They have 3 days to deliver the goods.

Spoliers:

Now, hopefully they can find out everything they need - home address, layout of home, school address, layout of school, vehicle in which she travels, route to school, security arrangements at home, school and during travel etc etc via the matrix and contacts in the 1st day.

That leaves 1 day for surveillance, and one day to carry out the grab.

And if they are a novice group who have not set up for a kidnapping, they are going to find it hard to get hold of any specialised gear in the 3 day time slot.

Fortunately the surveillance day and the kidnapping day are going to be the same routine for the victim, but of course the *characters* have no way of knowing that. If they set up for an extraction at the school and the vic stays at home that day with a cold, they now have even less time to carry out plan B, a completely different raid on the home, instead of just waiting for a couple of days.

***

Is it impossible? No. Is it difficult? Yes - which is why Shadowrunners get hired. BUT is it way more difficult than it has to be? YES - which should set alarm bells ringing. The Johnson hasn't just chosen a name at random, so its a given that the Johnson has a lot more intel about the vic than she is sharing (including the "minor" detail that she has a built in cyber-eye that wil record the faces of all the runners and upload them to the matrix) and has *no* legitamate reason to not share it. The deadline also seems entirely arbitrary. It makes it a all hell of a lot more difficult than it actually needs to be.

Given the choice, unless I were running with an experienced group that were specialists in kidnapping and already had lots of useful gear specifically for this sort of job, I would be very loathe to take on the job for the relatively low pay on offer. If I had been hired individually instead of as part of an existing team and thus had *no idea* what my fellow runners were capable of, I'd be even more leery, but that's exactly what a player might be facing when they rock up to the game at a convention. But at such a game, its do the run or walk away from the table IC AND OOC, which puts meta-pressure on the player.

***

Short version - THe Grab falls into the category of being obviously dicked around by the Johnson, which is in most cases a big flashing neon "No!" sign.

If the Johnson acts like he doesn't want the run to succeed, that's a reason to start walking.

For example, he refuses to share intel relevant to the mission, just because. Here and there in books it's suggested that if the runners don't want to do legwork themselves, then Johnson will dock some of their pay - sort of a punishment for not doing all of a school assignment.
But SR isn't school. Johnson should want you to succeed. If he already has some information necessary to succeed at the mission, he'd be a fool not to share it - he runs the risk of the runners going in underprepared, and the mission failing.



And over-mysterious Johnsons. "I want you to do a job for me. I won't tell you what the job is until we agree that you'll do it." That just doesn't make sense.

He shouldn't be telling them everything until an agreement in principle to do the job is reached, but some generalities are needed before agreement is possible; "I want you to kill a well-protected corporate official" or "I want you do steal a prototype from a secret lab" give more of an idea.

At that point there's some discussion about what price range that fits into, and if it looks like an agreement is possible, Johnson can give more specifics.

Some Mr. Johnsons might not want to give out details and such for the same reason espionage agencies don't always work off the data given to them: It could compromise an agent they have already inserted.

Making the Shadowrunners do their own Legwork means that their agents won't have to be used in any way, and protects a valuable, and already paid for, asset.

Until the Runners shoot them during the job, since they didn't know not to...