Gentlemen,

During a session tonight, we ended up debating the usefulness of the various spells and abilities that allow a character to change form somehow (Shapechange, Critter Form, Mist Form, Shapechangers shifting between forms etc.).

As it seems pretty obvious that the designers didn't intend for these powers/spells to allow a user to take their clothes and equipment along for the change, exactly what good is these abilities really? Our conclusion was basically that they have no use whatsoever, except in the most rarely seen and often stupid or desperate situations, will these abilities be or any real use.

What is your oppinion on this? Are we missing something that significantly increases these powers utility? Or are they mainly just gimmicks with no real in-game purpose?


/Kyrel

Mage, Body 4. Lionshape spell. Magic 4+ spellcasting 4+ Manipulation Specialization. Caster manages to get 4 hits on the test (force 4). Congratulations, you are now a creature with Natural weapons, Body 10, Agility 9, Reaction 8, Strength 9. That gives you 13 boxes, a good chance to dodge, a 7P melee attack, a good agility to sneak, and you get whatever skills you had before. Then, you can make yourself Lion shaped body armour (customized, based on what you expect to be shaped like, and sized as, usually), and you are lean, mean killing machine.

That's one option...

It's on par with some Trolls I've seen.

Because sometimes you need a Feral Druid ability to build aggros.

...

Unlike Mask or Invisibility, Shapechange/Critter Form are Manipulation spells, they really change you. So you don't have to bother beating Willpower or Intuition roll and Object Threshold to conceal your true nature (Astral Perception would still work though). Flying also comes in hand sometimes.

It does. Also, sometimes being able to turn into a crow comes in handy for getting into air ducts. Unless the place has cops moving around, and one happens to make the nearly impossible Astral Perception test to notice the spell through a grate. On the plus side, the PC managed to beat the opposing mage with Stunbolt, and gecko crawl across some buildings to avoid everyone else (He didn't want to leave his gear behind. Again)

Sure, that lionform in the example is quite entertaining. However, this particular trick is not worth all that much on a run, unless you intend to spend the entire run in lionshape (good luck blending in anywhere but in the right part of the zoo, or a circus...). Also, you can't put on that fancy lionshaped armour on your own (lions are a bit short in the hand and opposable thumb department...).

My friends and I don't dispute that these abilities can be quite useful, providing that you can create situations where they will be useful, and where you won't have to change back into a nude (meta)human form. However, in a given situation where you haven't had time to prepared thouroughly for a shapechange, you will be leaving behind all of your gear, weapons, armour etc., every time you change shape, and you will often have no way to bring it along.

Have a spirit toting your stuff for you? Or a cargo compartment on a drone, with a mechanical arm to assist you in gearing up?

In the 2070s, if you're awesome enough to become a lion, you're awesome enough to have something assist you in getting dressed. Or I should think so, anyway.

I can't really argue with the lion barding bit, but it's up to the players to create those situations. Another example would be a rat. They have Body 1, so the above mage couldn't do it, but they are hard to spot, espcially if the GM is using the "relative size modifiers", which I believe would make rats force a -2 penalty on perception to notice them (as long as Body is kept low). Combine that with (Improved) Invisibility, and even if the cameras or people notice you, they will think you are an average rat, which can be ignored in some places, or shot with very deadly toxins in others (though that would happen anyway). If you need your metahuman digits, you can still be invisible. Or, end one spell (free action) and cast the other (Complex) in the same turn. Like most things in the books, it's up to the imagination and creativity of the players and GM to use them effectively

I don't see what you're arguing over here. Those spells are obviously situationally useful (turn into a lion to fight, into a rat to sneak into a building or into an eagle to get away from land-based chase).
That doesn't make them any worse than the absolute majority of the spells in the book, which are also situationally useful (except maybe for the usual runner mage tricks like Trid Phantasm and Stunball).

Do you have a lion squire to put your lion form into your lion armor or do you just crawl into it in your naked human form before changing? Seems awkward either way.

The main issue is how you are able to stick with your foci but due to all the fancy materials in SR, this really should not be a problem, I guess.


So what?
I mean the choice of the world sees your dong or bleeding out in some corner, is not that hard. I guess.

So, yeah you are naked. (The main issue would be recognition, I guess. Thats where the mask spell comes in handy. (And it is one of the reasons making mutible form from free spirits that fucking great)
(Or you need anything to cover your face.


Beeing a mage you normally do not bring a lot of gear to begin with...
But honestly: If you have to shapchange to make a get away, loosing your gear is quite a good deal.
(Foki are the only limiting factor I see right now)

Shapchange alone is not helping much.
But shapechange and half of a brain can make any GM cry... (This is actually true for many RPGs.)

There is no "always use it like that" option. But you get access to a lot of option for very small investment.
Walking around as a mice and stunbolting the opposition? Easy going.. (Here it begs the question, how your GM handles the visibility of magic)
Transform your fellow runners, NPCs etc in little pets to bring them along. Very nice. ("This chopper has only room for 3 persons!" "No problem, we are one person and 5 mice")
Getting away ("I believe I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky...")
Beeing cought in a bad situation ("What I can't breath under water?")
Surveillance ("everybody ignore the cat please" And this spell is not broken by a pair of dirt cheap glasses with infrared vision)

Bone lacing or dermal plating/sheating and Shape shifting/changing/form changing. What happens?

Nothing. You do not get boni, but it won't do you any harm...

Hur, hur.

Did I make spelling mistake or grammar one?

Grammar, I think. But in that case, I'm pretty sure he was just pointing out a dirty thought he had.

Edited for spelling, at the request of Irion.

I once had a shaman who was ready to turn into a seal or dolphin to get back to seattle when (not if) the boat the team was on was blown up...

I had an NPC mage Johnson shapeshift into a rat to get away wounded but alive from the PC's ambush. (The PCs doublecrossed him not the other way around).

I once toyed with a mage/B&E specialist with ruthenium dermal sheathing and cyberarm. The cyberarm contained a toolkit and 'link.

To be honest, I put that last one together because I asked myself the question - "Who the heck would strip their clothes off to sneak anywhere?" with regard to dermal sheathing. It was a workable concept though.

Would you please write "grammar", when you quoted the right spelling...
(You got me scared there for a second...)

For the record it was a spelling error, the plural of bonus is bonuses and not "boni", I share Xahn's annoyance at that one.

My favorite are the people who say 'malus', which means 'apple tree'. (Yes, it's also used as anti-bonus, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that. It's just hilarious.)

I've always found the shape changing aspects more fun then anything else, they have moment of cool but still should be used sparingly. Although I have the urge to see about putting together a surged Cat boy street shaman with a fetish for going full citykitty.

I will add him to my freaks collection with my squirrel adept sniper and the crow shifter who pretends to be someones pet.

We had a mage in our group that used to transform himself into a pet (dog, cat, etc) to cast touch range spells.
"Ohh waht a nice dog. May I stroke it?" *zot* now the mage can see through your eyes

And our drake had almost always instant access to the roof of buildings (and was big enough to carry a backpack with his gear /clothes).

And I can think of some other uses mostly involving stealth. When you are creative, shapechanging can be extremely usefull

Lions are nice, but I prefer Rhinos.

Requires a higher base Body though, doesn't it?
Chaining of "Increase Body" Notwithstanding (Cheesy)...

Which can be achieved either through chain-Shapechange, Increase Body, or being a meta.

Don't agree with the chaining of Shapechange, Increase Body does work, as long as you maintain it through out the duration of the Shapechange as well (effectively Sustaining 2 spells). Meta is the obvious choice, of course, but not everyone likes playing a Meta.

A rhinoceros requires at least 10 body to be able to transform into. Unless they are using any of the permanent increased attribute possibilities, and max, no human or elf will manage it.

I don't want to rekindle any fires here (for those a little newer, the last Shapechange thread I was in went over 14 pages IIRC), but from a RAW and purely mechanical standpoint, and because of the poor wording of the spell, chain-Shapechange works and you don't need to sustain the Increase Body for you to get a bigger animal. However I do agree that the poor wording aside they probably did not intend to create such an amazing spell.

I have to agree with this, wholeheartedly.

Here's the full discussion for those interested.

@Neraph
I know thats your special way of reading the rules again, and I know better than getting in an argument about it.
Only so far:
This interpretation you go with is one of many. And a quite "special" one. (It has a lot of "lets assume" in it)

Not really. The wording is lacking in many areas - enough so that my interpretation is perfectly valid. It may be unpalatable, but it is a valid interpretation.

EDIT: I should also point out again that the interpretation I pointed out isn't neccessarily how I run it in my games, nor is it the only interpretation. I am simply pointing out that it is a valid interpretation.

Flying trolls are also a valid interpretation of RAW.
This has been done over and over again.
There is no way you can be always 100% accurate and have a game thats fun to play. (Because interpretating/writing like that would leave you with few you are still able to do.)

That's true. Still, chaining Shapechange is a little iffy... by common sense and logic. I know those don't mean much.

This.

I explain it in that 14 page thread I linked.

But not enough to overcome the Common Sense and Logic that HunterHerne is talking about.
I have absolutely no issue with you chaining the spells, AS LONG AS YOU SUSTAIN THEM AS WELL.

Lemmeh take a puff from my inhaler that has Psyche and it won't even be a problem...

I don't think anyone fails to *understand* the chaining idea. It's *buying* it that's a problem.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Orang-Utans, or other anthropomorphic animals yet. Shapechange into an Ape, get awesome physical stats, and use metahuman equipment (remember, customization is available!). Slap on some possession spirits, and you've got the Conqueror Ape from the Spirit of the Century Cover. Except this time, he comes with firearms!

Except that Psyche does not remove the penalties, it just reduces them. The penalties are still there.
And you still have the Drawbacks (Fluff though they may be) to deal with.



*shrug*

I meant that the sustaining modifiers won't be that much an issue. For example, with Psyche, if you increase your Agility from a 3 to a 10, you're still at a net +8 dicepool bonus. Now you still can't wear armor or use weapons, but that wasn't the point (and with the proper animal you've now turned into, you have a bit of armor and a substantially better Body).

Because orang utans (and apes generally) are not cool. ^^

You see that Ape flying a Doppeldecker? Tell me again he ain't cool. He gives Chewie a run for his money

He ain´t cool....see? It worked out.^^. Don´t know why, but i don´t like apes. They don´t look cool in comparison with cats or dogs. Maybe because they are too human-like.^^

Yeah, too much human like to be mysterious and too less humanlike to be sexy. So just not cool, dude.

Yeah I know they are the best choice, which makes them even less cool.

I

Point Taken...

A Brother in mind...wonderful.^^

Comparisons with dogs and cats aren't fair. It's like comparing Dryads and Fomori. The formers are desireable, cute pets, and the latters are pure combat machines taken for their stats.



For the combat monsters, see the above statement. As for the rest, I'll get back to you after watching the new Planet of the Apes movie