I have a question. duh

How does a adult dragon become a great dragon. Both DotSW and the BBB mention that the difference between them is size. But they also have a enormous jump in stats. +10 to strength!!

But it never mentions where they come from. Is a dragon just born a great form, or is it something they grow into? If so, do they grow into it slowly or is it sudden? Maybe it some form of initiation.

Maybe taking human form is a kind of metamagic. The DotSW says that great dragons "acquire" the power of Metahuman form. So it must be gained at some point later in life. But the physical changes are so...dramatic. So i'm guessing it not a gradual change.

I was wondering if anything cannon has ever been mentioned about great dragons. Or even better, if anybody has a neat ideas about the process.

We don't officially know, but there was a great dragon (I think it was Masaru) who was taking care of an egg, and that was vital to his becoming a great dragon, rather than just a regular one. Also, he had metahuman form at the time he was taking care of the egg.

Please see my Dracoforms page for details.

Essentially, becoming a Great Dragon requires a certain age (2K+ years) and a minimum level of magical ability (my estimates make that 10th level of Initiation).

Earthdawn Dragons PDF

We know from the Earthdawn information that dragons undergo a transformation between adolescence and adulthood and then again between adulthood and Great. The transformation is likened to a butterfly, wherein the dragon enters a cocoon of sorts.

I view it as a shift in their Pattern, a mutation of sorts.

Adult dragons can still cast Transform to become human (as all dragons are magic users), but Great Dragons have the innate ability to do so. I don't think of that as a metamagic, more that the ability to shift forms becomes part one their physical powers, like sitting, standing, and chomping.

I also think there is a stage beyond Great called Senile or the Maddness. But there is almost no evidence for that.

10th? that's it? i tend to assume that any great worthy of the name is at least 50th. and, the 2k years thing--that's active years, right?

Well, from a fairly trustworthy source we have it that one of the Greats might be attempting to evolve a step further...

And yes, I assume that it's 2,000 active years. As far as stats go, I'd guess it's a mostly gradual increase since dragons seem to keep growing all the time.

I tend to give Great Dragons rather unwholesome statistics, which I think are acceptable given their parabiologically magical nature, their access to educational materials far beyond the ken of any human university or initiatory group, and their long lives spent amassing Good Karma.

Young Great Dragons(those who have only been active during the current cycle, or who were born at the end of the 4th world), I tend to give Initiate Grades in the 10-25 range(Masaru, for instance, and Arleesh), as well as ~250 Karma Pool. Their Magical Skills tend to be in the 8-10 range.

Average Great Dragons(those to whom I attribute 1000-2000 active years, born in the 4th World), I tend to give Initiate Grades in the 25-75 range(Hestaby, Celedyr, and Rhonabwye). I give them ~1000 Karma Pool. Their Magical Skills tend to be in the 10-15 range.

Older Great Dragons(those to whom I attribute 8,000 or more active years, born in the 2nd World), I tend to give Initiate Grades in the 75-125 range(Lofwyr, Ghostwalker, Alamais). I give them ~2000 Karma Pool. Their Magical Skills to be in the 20-25 range.

Although these might seem excessive(Who wants to deal with a Great Dragon who's also got a Magic rating of 137, Sorcery of 25, and 2000 Karma Pool?!), look at Dowd's example given in Harlequin. Harlequin has probably spent the better part of two millenia in an active mana cycle, and as a result has so many Karma Pool that his dice are rerollable until all succeed(~1000 Karma Pool is about where this sort of thing becomes about right). He is described as an Initiate of "high double digit" grade, which is to say 70-80, maybe in the low 90's. He is, likewise, not as powerful the oldest of Great Dragons(he might be able to take one of the newer ones, but I doubt he'd survive an encounter with Lofwyr).

Using that rationale, plus just how much karma characters tend to earn on a per-year basis, I figured out reasonable statistics for Great Dragons. They may seem unreasonable, but you have to consider that these beings have survived, among other things, The Scourge and the Theran genocide campaigns, which were probably far more dangerous than any military strike that could be mounted in the 6th World(save for a nuclear one, of course). The characters should have absolutely no prayer of surviving(let alone prevailing in) a direct encounter with a Great Dragon or an Immortal Elf, without extraordinary circumstances, not limited to a nuclear weapon, some sort of powerful artifact, or the direct assistance of another immortal of equal caliber.

Here's a quick writeup of Ghostwalker as per my estimates of his abilities. It's minus anything that'd take me more than a few minutes to figure out and jot down, because I don't feel like dedicating the time and effort to a full writeup. I assume, as The Dollmaker, he's probably got the best Conjuring of all the Great Dragons, but not as much so with Sorcery, Aura Reading, etc...

I also give all Great Dragons the Regeneration ability. Maybe it's overkill, but if True Drakes have it, why don't they?

Ghostwalker

Attributes:

Body: 28/12
Quickness: 12 x 4
Strength: 53
Charisma: 22
Intelligence: 18
Willpower: 18
Essence: 12/Z
Magic: 122
Reaction: 15
Initiative: 15(+3D6)

Attack: 18D, Reach +4, Skill = 14

Dice Pools:

Astral: 110
Astral Combat: 29
Combat: 24
Karma: 2016
Spell: 52

Active Skills:

Aura Reading: 23
Centering: 20
Conjuring: 25
Divining: 20
Enchanting: 22
Etiquette: 18
Intimidation: 20
Negotiation: 16
Sorcery: 21

Spells:

All, Force 20 highest.

Metamagics(Grade 110 Initiate):

All, plus at least three times as many unique custom ones.

Foci:

Any needed.

Quickened Spells:

Combat Sense, Gecko Crawl, Personal Physical Barrier, various Detection spells.

The ability to regenerate lost limbs and organs in Great Dragons is a development of an innate ability (i.e. not every great dragon goes through the effort to develop it)

Doesn't DotSW give a rough guide to dragons (Great Dragon) karma pools and Initiate levels? I believe it says a Great Dragon has "50 or even more" when it comes to Karma Pools. For level of Initiation it gives the figure of 10 or higher (unless it is a young great dragon.)

Yes, it does. I feel that those values are absurdly low for what are basically the Shadowrun equivalent of deities in D&D.

yes, but that's insane. if you ran a mage for 2,000+ game years, wouldn't you be kinda disappointed if you ended up with only 50 karma pool and 10 grades of initiation?

I guess dragons become great with another astral cocoon. Wrap themselves up and BAM, out comes a great dragon.

But how does a dragon approach this. Earthdawn only mentions that it is a function of age. Does a dragon just get old enough and decides it time? Or is it more of a community event, where other great dragons must approve first? Either way I imagine that there must be a number of trials to succeed at?

And if not, at what point would they be called great?


*oops. repeated myself..

It's probably a matter of age(1000 years or more, I'd estimate), achievement(or lack of major dishonors and/or failures), and power(Grade 10 Initiate seems to be the bare minimum for even the youngest Great Dragon).

What if one has to spend Karma Pool permanently in addition to Karma to transform into a Great?

I think dragons might spend a bit of their Karma on other skills, foci, and such, as well. They don't just initiate, initiate, initiate, like normal PC's.

Well, the good karma cost for Grade 110 Initation would be:

Group, Ordeal: 9983 Good Karma
Group: 13310 Good Karma
Solo, Ordeal: 16638 Good Karma
Solo: 19965 Good Karma

We can probably assume that among the dragons' greater secrets of magic is probably that they don't have to bother with initiate groups and ordeals to purify themselves for initiation, like mere mortals. I'd say that a great dragon on its own probably would use group plus ordeal, or at least group, karma multiplier for initiation. That leaves between 7,000 and 10,000 to use on skills, for the greatest of the Greats. The most powerful of those skills are all still likely to be equal to(or slightly lower than) the dragon's linked attribute, and it'd be almost trivial for them to buy less timeless skills(knowledge, accounting, language, etc...) at 4 or 5 points, in bulk.

Being that one can reduce the Good Karma cost for spells by taking astral quests(which would be trivially easy for a dragon), it's probably rare for a dragon to spend any karma on spells at all, except for the most unimaginably high Force versions. Likewise, given that dragons aren't prone to wearing clothing, it's really unlikely they'd invest in more than one or two foci, probably ones useful for rituals and non-portable.

One issue I have with dragon rules is that Great Dragons cannot harm one-another. There's always the idea that when Great Dragons settle matters of honor, they do it without spells, in brutal and ritualistic claw to claw combat. The rules, however, show that Great Dragons deal a universal 16D damage(whether their Strength is 55 or in the low 40's, oddly), and have hardened armor of 20. That means that their actual melee attacks cannot penetrate their armor. Odd, that.

First I am sure the Good Karma to Karma Pool ratio for Dragons isn't 10 to 1 or 20 to 1. Surely it is something higher. Second I don't think Dragons pick up as much karma through the years as a group of Shadowrunners.

The real power of Great Dragons is they are smarter than you and have a horde of lackeys that you have to get through just to get to them and when you do finally met up with them, it is on the Great Dragon's terms, not yours.

even if GDs only earn 1 kp per 50 karma, that's still only 2,500 karma. you're saying dragons only earn a little over 1 karma per year?

Maybe I am wrong, but earning karma for a Great Dragon seems like it must be in proportion to its power. They won't earn 2 karma just Eating a group of Shadowrunners, just like taking candy from a baby shouldn't earn a shadowrunner two karma (one for surviving and won for completing the run...)

True, but dragons are almost always locked in power struggles and games of intrigue with other dragons. I'm sure such things give plenty of opportunity for karma.

I always figured that greats had an armor of 12 i.e. that it was not added to the 8 that non-greats have.

I run a second edition game, and from what I have read in the first and second edition sourcebooks, it seems like they were keeping Great Dragons under wraps for a reason. In my games, they'v never even come up because to add flavor to the game, they're more useful as a bar room rumor than an actual NPC. Recently the issue of non-great dragons got kind of forced, though. Does anyone know how non-great dragons came about according to 2nd ed. and earlier? Do they predate the Awakening? If so, where were they before? Underground, Astral space? Something wierder? And are they currently aware of what they were up to? I'm assuming that they didn't come about the same way as metahumans. I wouldn't even be thinking about this, but some of the sourcebooks and novels from the time do sort of indicate that non-great dragons are more integrated into society than great dragons (which I realize isn't saying much). For instance, holding positions in corporations or elsewhere where PCs are much more likely to encounter them than, say, Dunkelzahn.

Oh yeah. Most active Adults (the term for non Greats) lived through the 5th Age. Others might have been hatched in this age, though I doubt it. The time between Child, Adolescent, and Adult seems largely to prohibit that. Note that not only are Adults more a part of the day-to-day world, they are also often in the service of a Great - as is the case with <the dragon in charge of Hawaii>. And then there are those like Damon, who "seem" to resist the Dragon society.

The fiction section of ShadowrunRPG.com has two stories that deal with dragons. Dead Man's Party, by Jon Szeto, deals with a runners hired by a Great dragon, while Turnabout, by R. King-Nitschke, deals with a run against an Adult.

If a dragon hatched on Decemebr 24th, 2011 they'd still be considered a hatchling. All adult and great dragons are survivors from the AGe of Dragons and/or 4th Age.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Any idea what the Adults were up to prior to the Awakening? Also, is there any info on what Hatchlings are like? For instance, could I get away with saying that a dragon encountered was a Hatchling rather than an Adult in order to sort of keep the lid on the whole Dragon issue (i.e., let Adult dragons remain one of those things that player characters just don't run into)?

Any Adult dragon in the 6th world would not even have been laid as an egg during the span of Earthdawn.

Hatchlings look like small Wyverns, though they are considered intelligent. However, no Hatchling would be outside the care of their Great unless someone managed to steal one. Adolescents look "a lot" like Wyverns and behave like them too, as in irrationally and dangerously.

I have thought after reading Dot6W that Adult Dragons needed to do an astral quest and initiation to change into a great dragon. Which was why it was what I thought the difficult part of the metamorphasis was.

I remember having read that dragons wait and make sure that they are able to make it through this very hard and difficult task.

Also Eliohann, from Dragon Hunt, when was he hatched. It has been a while since I've gone over that. But wasn't he supposed to be born just newly hatched when the doctors installed the datajack, and isn't he considered an adult in Dot6W?

are you sure he hatched, in dragon hunt? i thought, when i read the plot synopsis, that he'd been captured.

Are you absolutely sure it's just Great Dragons that can reproduce? Normally, an animal is considered "adult" when it can reproduce.

Adult dragons DO reproduce. Greats normally do not. However, Greats watch over the eggs and are considered the hatchlings "sire." Actual blood relations are ignored.

<shrug> All-WIngs raised her own hatchlings, though they may have been laid right before she attained Great Dragon status <there was another case of that>.

Yes, that's true--but there's no indication that they went through with it.

Well i see it as a statement say Greats CAN in fact reproduce,

Indeterminate, as I recall. If the eggs are ready to hatch soon, then it may well be.

Mating age with dragons is more of a societal custom(and really, who has the time for love when you're tending other peoples' kids, running global conspiracies, and researching beyond the cutting edge of unfathomable magics) than anything else.

I mean, it's not like they age like humans and grow less fertile and physically powerful as the years pass. Dragons age like a human approaching adulthood, but keep maturing in that fashion infinitely, rather than losing muscle mass, capacity to reproduce, etc... beyond a certain critical point in the lifecycle. That much is apparent from Dragons(the Earthdawn PDF sourcebook).

I was under the impression that only Greats could reproduce. In (I think) Shadows of the Underworld, Masaru was very concerned with keeping his egg safe not just because it was his child, but also because by reproducing he proved his status as a Great.

Not quite. Adult dragons can mate but by draconic custom they then have to entrust their eggs to be looked after and then raised once they've hatched to a great dragon. The choice of whom you ask to mind your offspring, and whether they accept or not, is fraught with social standing. Some greats are more prestigious than others.

So some dragon had entrusted Masaru with their eggs to raise and someone had waltzed in and stolen them out from under them. Majorly embarassing him and a great insult to dragons in general.

Also, who says the greats don't get an "itch" now and then?
Just because Lowfyr and Hestaby want to rut doesn't mean she'll produce a clutch from the event.

Assuming that dragons do get an "itch" Hestaby is one of the only mentioned females out there besides white Lotus so that means if she gets an itch she could get around. Why would reproduction get in the way of being a great besides the fact there aren't a lot of female greats to begin with?

Would Loffy want anything to do with a younger woman err dragon, even younger than Hestaby? Also it would be cool to figure out the blood lines of dragons regardless of them having a great to "sire" them. I think it made Dukie and ghosty major movers and shakers having to learn from their real mother as well as learn to look out for one another instead of themselves like Loffy.

If Loffy or Sirug are "siring" or even reproducing would that be something scary? Would the dragon hunters out there target specific clutches they see as primary or #1 targets? I wonder if the greats are feeling pressured to reproduce. Look at the great Leviathan and her desperations to get some of the eggs back from Hestaby, are the leviathans in short supply? And is the Sea dragon Nessy from the Lockhness in the ireland tir?

Loch ness is in Scotland, and the leviathans are in short supply according to DoSW.

Thanks, knew I was missing one.

Reference BTW for

Yeah, I just don't see that as being the case.

BTW, for those who don´t know the story of "Damon", Kestrel and Ocelot is told on Winterhawk´s site