So my mage goes to scout out a local Tempo house in the astral. As he floats through the wall, he comes upon 5 tempo tripping gangers. They rush him, defaulting to Will to attack him, but he taking -1, -2, -3 and -4 to his Intuition roll to avoid those attacks.

My question is this: Can they subdue him ala the standard combat rules so he can't float back out of the wall? Can he cast a manaball after he is subdued?
How would you run this and what other astral nastiness can I fit in this den on inequity?

Oh, you're asking about Tempo. Cool. Where do I find the description of it?

1st Question: No not really, since he can easily adjust his astral form (which does not have to be humanoid), they can still punch him. Plus, though painful a dual natured person can pass through an astral only one due to realworld conditions (IIRC).

2nd question: Yes. This is not the game that causes cancer.

Ghost Cartels

Tempo makes mundanes duel natured, which is the only pertinent part of it to my dilemma. I'm asking something more akin to Astral Combat, namely if a group of duel natured goons ganged up on a 100 Karma mage, what should be their plan of attack? More specifically, if they dog piled him, could they incapacitate him?

For posterity, it can be found on p. 58 of Ghost Cartels.

Keep in mind that being dual natured (temporarily or otherwise) means you're still stuck in your physical body. An astrally projecting magician can move in all three dimensions in ways a person can't; what's stopping him from peeking in through the roof, or something like that?

And yeah, magicians can still cast spells even if someone DOES manage to tackle and/or subdue them, tie them up, whatever. Unless they've got Geasa requirements or something that specifically says otherwise, line of sight is half the battle.

Their only real hope is to gangpile him with regular melee attacks and hope they get lucky - otherwise he can just float above their heads and zap them to death.

Don't forget modifiers like "friends in the melee," by the way. But they are probably screwed - being dual-natured without a way to make ranged astral attacks is dangerous for this reason.

He's going to want to search the whole building for a thing and while nothing would prevent my mage from peeking in and then peeking out subtly, he won't. Knowing my player like I do, he'll rush in in astral form spells a blazin'. Plus the thing he's looking for is in the basement, so he's gotta go through the whole house.
While the astral form can move in three dimensions, the building's dimensions make doing that and keeping LOS difficult.
Maybe give him a superior position bonus?
EDIT: He can't just float above their heads because the ceilings are like that of any other non-NYC apartment building, about 10 to 8 feet. I guess he could shift his form so that only his head is showing, but then the folks on the floor above could see him.


So there is no grappling in astral combat, only striking? The only reference I can find in SR4a is that astral combat is resolved the same way as regular combat except for...and it goes on.
While I believe you, I'm going to be asked to provide a page number and reference during the game and I'll be expected to know it off the top of my head.
God forbid one of my players cracks open a book.

Oh god. I read about Tempo. You're going into a Tempo house? Flipping junkies are the least of your problems, muchacho.

He can still run. Go through the floor, now the guys he was fighting need to find the stairs to find him, and by the time they do, he's in the basement.

No, I'm the GM. I'm running the Tempo house. It is my duty to make it as imposing as possible, hence why the mage shouldn't be able to look around without trepidation.


True, but he doesn't know where the thing is. He's got to search the whole house for it. Heck, the thing is mobile so depending on time of day it may not be in the basement.
That's the motivation, to make scouting astrally harder so and and all searching problems aren't solved by "I turn into an invisible ghost and go through their cupboards until I find it."
To inspire critical thinking, if you will.

Why is astral scouting for an object he can't see the colour, detail, or writing on so easy? What is he looking for?

It's not just the finding, but the scouting which should have an impediment, else it becomes easy and then it becomes boring.

For the record, it's a guy. The politician's son in the third adventure seed of First Taste in Ghost Cartels.

Alright. Well, I don't really have an answer for you. My usual answer would be, that even after things could change, depending how long they wait before going in. In a recent run I was doing, the group needed to infiltrate an apartment complex pretty much owned by the gangers. There are "innocents" in the building, little kids, and I told the astral observer what she found. When they finally showed up to hit the building, there were two guys on the roof getting high on Cram and watching the lights slow down (from their perspective), who weren't there before. Really put the screws to their plan, especially since the human mage couldn't see anything in the partial light (no perception skill, intuition 2, wound modifiers from previous drain). Resulted in both getting shot and alerting everyone else in the building someone was coming before they could even get inside.

Ooooh, it's the player who's royally screwed then. GC, page 133. I doubt the guy will be able to snoop around if the shadow spirit pops out of a hapless junkie and chases the mage around basically for shits and giggles only. That, of course, kinda breaks the suspense and mystique of Tempo, but if we consider that according to RAW, flipping junkies can do exactly jack smack shit to him. They can raise alarm, try to find his physical body or simply freak out, but direct attack on an astral form won't work.

Since Astral Combat is meant to be resolved like normal unarmed combat, I'd let them grapple the astral form. While it's tempting to say "he can just shift his astral form", there are two major problems with that:
1) While astral forms are not directly analagous to mundane forms, they also can't be shifted willy-nilly. They are a shape based on the magician's idealized sense of "self", not a matrix icon you can just re-load. You don't go from being a hulking 12 foot troll to a cat to a flying cupcake just by willing it.
2) They are, as I said, idealised self-images. This means that in almost every case, they will look like how you see the "perfect" you - which means you'll be metahuman shaped.

The other thing to note is that I'm not sure you can deal stun damage in Astral Combat. So "subdue" can only mean "hold the guy there", not "punch him unconscious."

When dealing damage in astral combat, you can deal stun. You make the choice when you attempt the attack.

Edit: SR4A page 193

I really like your puns!
especially when discussing duelling dual-natured critters!
I don't know if it's still the same in SR4, but in SR3 shapeshifters (which are dual-natured) have an astral form that always appears like their true animal, no matter what form their physical body is in at the time. So I agree with Adarael - if astral forms could be changed by choice and at will then shapeshifters would get to change their astral form to humanoid to match their physical form.

Alright, this is the 3rd or 4th time I've seen this reference. Forgive my newbism, but what's everyone talking about when they talk about the game that causes cancer?

Oh, sweet! That's great, then. I must have been confusing myself with an earlier edition.

It's what some folks call d20 games.

Ah. Thanks for that.

Double-checked what I wrote yesterday. My point still stands: according to RAW, dual-natured characters and critters can't harm an astral form directly - astral forms can be attacked only via Astral Combat, a skill that cannot be defaulted on. However, seeing an astral form wandering in and out of the crackhouse WILL put the junkies on full alert and/or cause them to freak out. So, "how would I run this"? Decide how high the junkies are and can they tell an astral form from a hallucination. If they can, they should freak out, grab weapons and split up - one group drags the hostage out, other one searches area for the mage. Unless he acts fast and manabombs them all, things are going to get ugly. The best course of action for him is hauling ass to his physical body and warning the rest of the team of what's going on, as he will most probably not be able to sling enough mojo to take the junkies out singlehandedly.

Dual Natured characters may use Unarmed instead of Astral Combat.

Also:

I take it you've never seen Stunball put to proper use?

Had he the opportunity to assense the target's aura before ? Otherwise he is likely to have a hard time identifying it using astral perception only.

from the FAQ:

Do dual-natured characters/critters (including assensing characters) use their Physical or astral attributes when fighting an astral opponent?

Dual-natured characters are limited by their physical bodies. In astral combat, they move at meat body speeds (use regular physical Initiative); they deal Charisma ÷ 2 (round up) physical damage, or the damage determined by their weapon focus (if they have one).

Most dual-natured critters are not listed as having the Astral Combat Skill; those with Natural Weapons can use their Unarmed Combat Skill instead (p.296, SR4A), but if for some reason a dual-natured critter is without a Natural Weapon, to keep them from being completely defenseless gamemasters are advised to give them the Astral Combat Skill equal to the critter’s Unarmed Combat Skill.


don't have the books. Can one default on Astral Combat?

Nope.

I think it may have originated a few years ago at GenCon when someone wrote "D20 CAUSES CANCER" in 3 inch block letters across a paper banner in the Shadowrun vendor booth.

As for the Tempo house, well, a regular crack house is one of those places that is likely to have a decent background count. A Tempo crack house, much more so.

That alone should significantly cripple magic using folks.




-k

You are correct in that Astral Combat can't be defaulted on. Thanks for pointing that out. Thanks also to Makki for leading me to the FAQs which give me a reference for the junkies to be able to use their Unarmed Combat, which they will at a penalty in addition to the mage's Superior Position bonus.

To give you some context, the junkies should have no problem being able to tell the mage from an illusion. He's four times Initiated with three foci so he stands out, not to mention it's something the goons have been told to keep an eye out for. If the mage sneaks in(he won't, but if) they'll have to make their Perception checks at a penalty.
Grabbing weapons would make no sense, as they can't affect the astral form. Dragging the hostage out would make no sense, as he wouldn't be safe in the house, but out in the open where any schmuck can get him(both Lone Star, Crimson Crush and Tamanous are after him too) and if they did, move him where exactly? The mage would just follow him.
If the goons couldn't affect him, then why would the mage need to hurry at all? He could just go low and slow, stun bolting every dual natured fool at his whim while they ran and hid impotently. This is what I'm trying to avoid. The mage saying "I walk in and no one can stop me." while the rest of my players fiddle on their phones. The guys not being a jerk when he does this, he's playing to his strengths and it is better to use a carrot and stick approach within the system to discourage such behavior rather than by fiat.

I could always just have some Spirits of Man and some shamans hanging out, but frankly that's dull. It's what happens at every Corp facility and mafia hangout in Shadowrun and I want to throw something new into the mix. Twist it up a little. I like the idea of tons and tons of disposable bad guys who are pretty ineffectual separately, but when made dual natured are made duel natured to astrally perceiving entities. It also adds to the dangerous and mysterious element of Tempo which my players are just now hearing about(they don't read the books.) Plus the small dimensions of a drug house make one big AoE spell out of the question unless it's going to hit the mage too. Lots of guys hiding in a honey comb of badness.

Oh, and while he hasn't assessed the guy before, I was under the impression he can still make out shapes and dimensions in astral space and so be able to see what the guy's face looks like based on his picture. Yes or no?

Edit: The place will have a small BC, but not a 7 needed to make it impenetrable to his astral form.

Hmh, I'm still not sure if "critters can use Unarmed Combat skill instead of Astral Combat if they don't have it" applies to things that usually aren't dual natured, like people on Tempo. Common sense might tell that while paracritters like Barghests and Devil Rats can naturally spot and fend off spirits, some random goon snorting rainbows will not know how to clock an astral form with his fists all of a sudden.
As for grabbing guns - they can't do anything to an astral form, correct, but if an astral form strolls in to look around, his body and buddies most probably aren't far away, so the goons might as well go out, look around and shoot them up if they find them. Also, what Tempo is made of. Things will get much funnier if one guy pukes out a Shadow Spirit or simply gets possessed to smack Mr Mojo around on the astral.

You must have never been around people hallucinating from drugs. They could easily hallucinate something like that, however, they would not think it was a hallucination, even it if was a hallucination.


Correction here... Grabbing a weapon would not be more effective, but it would certainly make sense. Guys who aren't used to doing astral combat might very well do that. Especially if they are tripping balls. If you saw a big glowy monster come through your wall and there were weapons around, I would think it would be your inclination to grab for weapons, even if it may not really be more effective for you. If you don't have the knowledge and experience fighting on the astral, and your mind is clouded with drugs, I don't think you would make logical leaps in a surprise combat situation.

I'd say relax the "no defaulting" restriction on Astral Combat a little, but don't let them use Unarmed Combat either, since they're not really used to the astral plane either. Don't let them act too coherently, more like a mob of mean drunks. Let them try to pile on to him.

Do apply some background count; altogether it should certainly make it very unpleasant. Finally, play up that recognizing someone on the astral, that you've never physically met, is very hard. You basically have to get directly in front of someone, about a foot apart, and take good long look to see someone's face. That's gonna be fun.

I think Unarmed combat works fine with duel natured creatues and Astral Combat works well with purly astral creatures. I'm cool with imposing an additional penalty(probably -2), but I think "I punch it" is kind of a universal truth in combat. Especially for those trained in combat.


The other players won't be around. They'll be elsewhere waiting for the mage to come back with his assessment of the situation(i.e. the other players will be fiddling around on their phones)
I could describe what the goons are doing, but unless it directly affects the mage he won't care. Me: "The goons are grabbing guns." Mage: "I don't care. I look for the thing." Me: "They're running into the streets, freaking out shooting at you." Mage: "Do they hit me?" Me: "No." Mage "I don't care. I look for the thing."

While it might or might not be something they'll do, it is irrelevant to the scenario because it wouldn't affect the participant. I'll probably have them make a Composer test at a penalty to describe the scene, but my players will most likely just ignore people who aren't a threat.

Way to early in my narrative structure to make that reveal. They just found out about the stuff 2 sessions ago and have a whole year's worth of interaction with the drug to do. The baddies are First Nations, so having some weird spirit just hanging out feeding off the bad vibes might be a neat idea, though. Another neutral party that will get into the fray, but won't choose any side other than his own.


I don't think tempo has hallucinatory effects outside of the astral. In any event, this is a drug house. These guys have been told to keep an eye out for Lone Star cops astrally snooping around and rival gangs encroaching on their turf so they won't be caught entirely unaware. But making a Composuer test might be a good idea. thanks.

EDIT: Besides, having the bad guys do nothing because they are too freaked out is exactly the same as having the bad guys do nothing because they can't see him. It provides no impediment to the player's goals.


While that was the plan(BC is part of the plan too, I just didn't think in relevant to mention for the questions I had), the mage could then open his book and say "No! They can't attack me because you can't default on Astral Combat!" and if I'm just making up or ignoring rules at my whim then I'm not being a neutral GM. FAQs say duel natured creatures default to Unarmed Combat, then that's what I have to go with. Otherwise every player at my table will think he has a better way to interpret the rules than I do and will think I'm being unfair, in which case no one is happy.
Besides, these guys don't have a boat load of Unarmed Combat anyway and their Willpower has already been reduced by the Tempo, so it's still just like 3 or 4 dice per guy. No one is a threat individually, but as a group these mooks can be impactful if the mage goes in alone. If the group decides to take them on as a team(i.e. with no one fiddling with their phones) then they don't stand a chance.

Point your players to SR4A, p. 60; the GM should definitely adjust the rules if the adjustment will improve the game.

While I agree, I can also see the argument that what I'm doing isn't improving the game, but defaulting to my own prejudices.
There are situations where I stray from the rules, like if the whole table agrees that something is wrong(being able to cast fireballs on the moon) or if it's a rule that breaks the universe(multiple Matrix passes in AR), but if I just make a personal interpretation to everything, then my players have no idea if a plan is going to work unless they can read my mind and know what I'm going to think about every situation.
I have to be neutral or else the game doesn't mean anything.

I'm a big fan of house rules, but used in a systematic fashion. Every house rule is added to a document which I email to all my players every time it changes.

In this case, what I'd send would be "You can default on Astral Combat, but you can only buy it if you have Magic 1+."

Yeah, I'm with that. Mostly because the rules for Astral Combat and not being able to default were written prior to any of the rules which would grant someone the ability to interact with astral space while being non-magical. Without defaulting, a watcher could kill a human on tempo, simply because the human would be soaking only with Willpower, and the law of averages says "Hey, if you can't respond in kind, the Watcher will wear you down."

Which I think is a bit shit, and tend to say "Hey, if you're dual natured, your fists are natural weapons too."

I dig you. I think I'll go with the RAW as per FAQs for five reasons in ascending order.

1) Thems' the rules.
2) The difference between defaulting on Will and adding Unarmed Combat with penalty for my gangers is 1 die.
3) The FAQ justification is answering the exact question I have, which is how to not make dual natured creatures defenseless. Asked and answered. Thanks, Catalyst.
4) Punching a thing in the Astral should hurt it. That just makes sense.
5) Most important of all is that I want to tempt my mundane characters into taking Tempo. They should be tempted to take it and beat up spirist and what-not to resist their ITNW. Take that addiction. Feed my plot! MWAHAHAHA!

...hold on, your goons have only 1 rank of Unarmed Combat? I looked at replacing the skills from the perspective of my adept, him clocking a spirit on the astral with his bare hands would be pretty OP, six dice ain't nothin' to sneeze at...