Something that Eyeless Blonde said in that thread got me thinking there might be a very wide range of play out there. I'm curious about what people see as acceptable risk. I'm talking about driving in high stress situation, not just going down to the Stuffer to pick up a carton of soy. Please answer poll as closely as possible, though I realise that character to character variances can occure. Motorcycles can count as driving unrigged as i believe there is a motorcycle gyro accessory that allows you to rig them.
BTW i didn't include "Non-rigged characters drive once they reach a skill of 1" on that extensive list because, well that seems plain S-T-O-P-U-D-stoopid to me. While GMing i had a player refuse to default, and instead use their Car (1) skill to try drive in a combat situations. The first time he was driving someone else's van trying to flee after things had gone bad (why he was driving) and rolled a 1. I had given fair warning, and ruled all 1's...he skidded across a lawn and plowed into the side of a house (they were in a residential gated community). Van damaged, but drivable.
But he hadn't learned. Second incident, this time with his own pickup (yes, he -owned- a vehicle he only had 1 skill point in driving). Fleeing the site of a shootout, while under fire. He tried making a 90º corner on a paved street while accelerating away. Once again rolled a lone '1'. This time i ruled he had flipped the pickup. That one he -still- whines about to this day, though it's been at least a couple of years since it happened. He claims it is somehow impossible to flip a pickup on a paved street.
Full Version: The Risks of Driving
I have to admit, I do see a lot of dependence on autonavs IMGs, either to give a lousy driver extra dice or just to drive. A lot of the players in my group just do not invest in driving skills above 2.
Why should they? Driving skills are professional stunt-driving style skills, not your everyday driving skills. I doubt if more than one or two people on Dumpshock would qualify to have even a Cars 3 skill, let alone anything higher than that.
Since few people have it, a lot of people would depend on Autonavs when an emergency cropped up -- that's what they're for.
Since few people have it, a lot of people would depend on Autonavs when an emergency cropped up -- that's what they're for.
I'd probably _not_ use an autonav in situations where:
1) I'm trying something dangerous, or
2) Someone is shooting at me.
Why? Autonavs are programmed for safety - in a lot of situations where you might want a Car skill (better called stunt or combat driving), The autonav will probably just brake and come to a stop.
1) I'm trying something dangerous, or
2) Someone is shooting at me.
Why? Autonavs are programmed for safety - in a lot of situations where you might want a Car skill (better called stunt or combat driving), The autonav will probably just brake and come to a stop.
I always considered a skill of 3 to be average, this also applies to vehicle skills. If you did not have a skill in fixed-wing aircraft, could you still fly a plane? Obviously, vehicles are easier to drive than flying a plane; but if you know nothing about a car or motorcycle, could you start it, put it into gear, press the gas, hit the brake, turn adequately? I know it took me a couple hours of driving to get a feel for it when I learned.
On the other hand, in game I usually consider driving an innate ability and do not require the characters to buy a driving skill. If they get into trouble driving, they are screwed. And I have yet to see a skill of 2 or less used effectively in a game. So why buy it unless it is 3 or more.
On the other hand, in game I usually consider driving an innate ability and do not require the characters to buy a driving skill. If they get into trouble driving, they are screwed. And I have yet to see a skill of 2 or less used effectively in a game. So why buy it unless it is 3 or more.
who ever can drive needs to in some games. i have seen this end a team when the getaway car crashes before the run even starts (crit fail drive test to not draw attention to my self). and i have had a sam with no skill and serious wounds get away in a helicopter (even at TN13 with a 24 reaction you can do it). your team will do what it has to to getaway, safe sane or otherwise.
| QUOTE (broho_pcp) |
| On the other hand, in game I usually consider driving an innate ability and do not require the characters to buy a driving skill. If they get into trouble driving, they are screwed. |
Which is what the rules say. You can do normal everyday stuff without the need for any checks or the skill. It's when you start tearing round the city streets at eighty miles an hour or trying to do an Evil Knievel that you need the skill.
| QUOTE |
| And I have yet to see a skill of 2 or less used effectively in a game. So why buy it unless it is 3 or more. |
In keeping with the characters background? Not enough points left at creation so they'll take what they can and improve them later?
| QUOTE |
| your team will do what it has to to getaway, safe sane or otherwise. |
I vote for Otherwise
My character's have driven stoned a few times, and drunk on one occasion.
| QUOTE (broho_pcp) |
| I always considered a skill of 3 to be average, this also applies to vehicle skills. If you did not have a skill in fixed-wing aircraft, could you still fly a plane? |
According to the rules, yes.
Flying the plane isn't the hard part, most times. It's the take-offs and landings. I consider any form of combat driving, st00pid stunts, aircraft take-offs and landings, rough-seas, etc to require a handling check.
I've had characters try to land hang-gliders on rooftops using only their 4 reaction dice. Generally, however, my players don't create plans around vehicles unless they have a rigger to back them up.
I've had characters try to land hang-gliders on rooftops using only their 4 reaction dice. Generally, however, my players don't create plans around vehicles unless they have a rigger to back them up.
Well I suppose you can keep the stick still and stuff, but doesn't takeoff and landing require rolls? Not familiar with the rigger rules at all myself.
Back on topic, I seriously doubt I'd want to do any major warzone driving without a Control Pool. But then I've only a few passing glances at the rigger rules to go by.
Back on topic, I seriously doubt I'd want to do any major warzone driving without a Control Pool. But then I've only a few passing glances at the rigger rules to go by.
| QUOTE (John Campbell) | ||
According to the rules, yes. |
Also according to the rules you take at least a TN +1 penalty for Unfamiliar Vehicle. Given that TNs without a VCR become quite silly, the extra +1 could make a huge difference in the outcome. Consider the example of landing a plane, which i fully agree constitutes a reason for a control/crash test. First that is at least a "Tight" manuever because the ground and off the sides of the runway are obsticles. Then there is a "Stressful Situation" that is GM disgression, and frankly if having 30+ dials, knobs, etc. in frount of you and being strapped into a glorified aluminum can with large amounts of flammable liquid doesn't count as "Stressful" then i simply don't know what the meaning of the word is.
"You sure Billy you can land this thing?"
"Ya, i saw someone do it on a late-night trid once."
*BOOOOOM*
I am not sure why, but I always seem to play a character who has a bike skill at 6, so he drives a good bit. Howver, he does FEEL better when it's the rigger in charge.
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On a side note: I was a pizza delivery guy in college, so I would say that my personal skill is a 4. Some of the guys (and gals) that I worked with would be 4.5 (if there were such) and at least one of them was a 5.
==============================
On a side note: I was a pizza delivery guy in college, so I would say that my personal skill is a 4. Some of the guys (and gals) that I worked with would be 4.5 (if there were such) and at least one of them was a 5.
I am truely amazed by the number of people that are willing to tack on a TN +4 to default to Reaction. I assume these are mostly cyberware/bioware Reaction monsters that are willing to tackle high single digit and low double digit TNs with sheer dice volume?
I'm truly amazed that you think most people are combat-trained drivers that don't need to tack on that +4 TN modifier for defaulting to Reaction when they hit an oil slick while driving 200mph with a fleet of cop cars and drones in hot pursuit. Precious few circumstances warrant a check, and in those times that they do, that's why you hire a professioanl wheelman or rigger.
Some shadowrunners can be expected to have such a skill at low to moderate levels, but it's dedicated riggers and wheelman that should be the only ones to regularly have a high skill rating. Not everyone has a Computers skill, either, but most everyone in the Sixth World who doesn't have Computer Illiteracy as a flaw can perform everyday functions without a problem. Shock, shock.
It's one of the few things in the game that actually reflects and encourages real life consequences fairly accurately. Go figure.
Requiring players to have a vehicle skill just so they can drive to a meet is beyond idiotic and demonstrates a poor grasp of what Skills in Shadowrun represent.
Some shadowrunners can be expected to have such a skill at low to moderate levels, but it's dedicated riggers and wheelman that should be the only ones to regularly have a high skill rating. Not everyone has a Computers skill, either, but most everyone in the Sixth World who doesn't have Computer Illiteracy as a flaw can perform everyday functions without a problem. Shock, shock.
It's one of the few things in the game that actually reflects and encourages real life consequences fairly accurately. Go figure.
Requiring players to have a vehicle skill just so they can drive to a meet is beyond idiotic and demonstrates a poor grasp of what Skills in Shadowrun represent.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| I'm truly amazed that you think most people are combat-trained drivers that don't need to tack on that +4 TN modifier for defaulting to Reaction when they hit an oil slick while driving 200mph with a fleet of cop cars and drones in hot pursuit. Precious few circumstances warrant a check, and in those times that they do, that's why you hire a professioanl wheelman or rigger. |
| QUOTE (me @ original post) |
| ...I'm talking about driving in high stress situation, not just going down to the Stuffer to pick up a carton of soy.... |
When i drive to/during/from a run i'm surprised if i don't have to make at least one driving check. Since our games are structured so that we are pretty much always at the cusp of a run, or bad news tends to sneak up on me, i tend not to get behind the wheel unless i am combat trained. Maybe that is where my misunderstanding is, that in other people's games Shadowrunning is not a 24/7 lifestyle. *shrug*
| QUOTE |
| It's one of the few things in the game that actually reflects and encourages real life consequences fairly accurately. Go figure. |
Well there is the point about flying planes with no points in the skill. But i think that the +4/+3 since you have to default to attribute or at least from another flying vehicle skill, coupled with the +1 tends to reflect that fairly well. I seem to recall a news story a month or two back where a skunk-drunk man with apparently no flying training managed to walk into an airport hanger and make off with a 2-seater plane. He managed to get it up off the ground and flew a mile or two before he crashed.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Requiring players to have a vehicle skill just so they can drive to a meet is beyond idiotic and demonstrates a poor grasp of what Skills in Shadowrun represent. |
Speaking of poor grasp, please reread my original post.
It was a generic comment aimed towards the thread as a whole.
It's not particularly difficult in SR to get Reaction of 20+, which is probably why so many people are willing to default to it. It's pretty hard to make a character at chargen with quickness 20, for instance, which is why nobody defaults on firearm skills.
If their into their cars (boats/ planes what ever) rather then just using them for a mode of transport then yeah charatcers should have the skill. But if it's just for driving down shop for soy then no, thats falls under the "everyman" use of skills.
As a side note at what point would you consider a skill being aquivalent to that of a fast and furious driver?
As a side note at what point would you consider a skill being aquivalent to that of a fast and furious driver?
Six and better, for starting characters.
But generally speaking, a Car of 3 or 4 is a good idea just for the ability to do background work, not necessarily pursuit/evade maneuvers.
My GM requires a character to have the skill if any driving is attempted -- you can default, but there's no mistaking the character's defaulting.
-Siege
But generally speaking, a Car of 3 or 4 is a good idea just for the ability to do background work, not necessarily pursuit/evade maneuvers.
My GM requires a character to have the skill if any driving is attempted -- you can default, but there's no mistaking the character's defaulting.
-Siege
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| I am truely amazed by the number of people that are willing to tack on a TN +4 to default to Reaction. I assume these are mostly cyberware/bioware Reaction monsters that are willing to tackle high single digit and low double digit TNs with sheer dice volume? |
I guess the reasoning is that most non-mage characters will have a Reaction of 8 or more. Rolling 8 dice against a TN of 8 you'll hit it about 70% of the time, so you're pretty much assured of hitting anything within the range of defaulting (It's rather odd, but when you calculate the probabilities sometimes driving with skill of 1 or 2 is actually worse than triving with no skill at all. Go figure.). Also, many of these players have no doubt watched a few police chases on live TV, and know that usually when you get into a situation where you'll actually need Driving skill (such as being on the receiving end of a police chase) you've got about a 1% chance of actually getting away even if you make the series of steadily-increasing tests, so there's not really much point in investing in the skill anyway.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Six and better, for starting characters. But generally speaking, a Car of 3 or 4 is a good idea just for the ability to do background work, not necessarily pursuit/evade maneuvers. My GM requires a character to have the skill if any driving is attempted -- you can default, but there's no mistaking the character's defaulting. |
I hope your GM gives you guys extra skill points at chargen, then. Otherwise I happen to think this is a little harsh. Starting characters are limited to about 25-50 skill points at the beginning of their career. Requiring Car 3-4 is saying that a character has spent on average about 10% of his trainning effort learning to drive; Car 6 takes up 12-24%. That means driving a car on average for a little over an hour and a half a day, every day, since the day you were born. I sincerely doubt that anyone drives that much unless they're a professional racecar or truck driver, and by that point would have picked up some extra trainning in the skill, which is what Car 3-4 really means.
(Edit): Hmm, unless you use the BeCKS generation system; then getting a skill at 3-4 is downright easy. Hmm.
Actually, he doesn't.
Given the amount of safety auto-features in cars for SR, a character could successfully use Car 1 to function as a glorified taxi.
When you want to actually do things not covered in the safety manual but not necessarily pull a boot-legger's turn across a patch of ice --> that's when the functional level of 3-4 comes in.
It's entirely conceivable that an adult character would not know how to drive even a little if they've never had the reason or opportunity to learn. Given public transportation, living in an enclosed urban environment -- odds are, a fair portion of Seattle in 2060 doesn't actually know how to drive.
Edit: Having spent some time in Paris (and enjoying it thoroughly), a good public transportation system would all but eliminate a person's need for independent mechanical transportation.
-Siege
And the limited skill points require the character to make some hard choices on skills instead of grabbing only the "cool" ones without any thought to functionality on a daily or non-combat basis.
Given the amount of safety auto-features in cars for SR, a character could successfully use Car 1 to function as a glorified taxi.
When you want to actually do things not covered in the safety manual but not necessarily pull a boot-legger's turn across a patch of ice --> that's when the functional level of 3-4 comes in.
It's entirely conceivable that an adult character would not know how to drive even a little if they've never had the reason or opportunity to learn. Given public transportation, living in an enclosed urban environment -- odds are, a fair portion of Seattle in 2060 doesn't actually know how to drive.
Edit: Having spent some time in Paris (and enjoying it thoroughly), a good public transportation system would all but eliminate a person's need for independent mechanical transportation.
-Siege
And the limited skill points require the character to make some hard choices on skills instead of grabbing only the "cool" ones without any thought to functionality on a daily or non-combat basis.
In terms of minor chases and vehicular gunfights I'd prefer a rank of 4. But, when the drek hits the fan and the driver needs to make like Handsome Rob, you really, really, really want a Rigger in the driver's seat.
Im sure it was pointed out, but its roughly assumed that the PCs can at least do the normal stuff. They can drive down to the corner store, check their Email, make instent noodles, and take apart their sidearm (provided they have the owner manual). Once you start going over that, then its completly reasonable to have to make checks. Driving in a light snow, reloading an OS, making brownies, fixing that sticky clip release. The latter example is what Id call (roughly) a TN of 3, so defaulting to an att, or similuar skill isnt a big deal. Once you get to things like dodging traffic in a snowstorm, fixing windows ME, making a scratch lemon lace pie, or machining a new firing pin for that glock, thats getting to the point where having a skill of 3 or 4 is probely a requirement.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| I hope your GM gives you guys extra skill points at chargen, then. Otherwise I happen to think this is a little harsh. |
You know, it's funny you mention that. I give everyone in my games Car: 2 for free (or another vehicle of their choice, with the understanding that they will have difficulty driving a car), and require the skill for no-check normal driving. Because, as has been said, there's no reason to let someone drive a helicopter or tank for the first time with no skill check, no matter how easygoing the situation.
And also, assuming that everyone can drive everything is a little out-of-whack for, say, a character who grew up in the middle of the woods and has never seen a vehicle before in his life. Giving them the option to not be able to drive cars is a good thing, IMO.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| And also, assuming that everyone can drive everything is a little out-of-whack for, say, a character who grew up in the middle of the woods and has never seen a vehicle before in his life. Giving them the option to not be able to drive cars is a good thing, IMO. |
It's a little out of whack even for normal characters, because the letter of the rules doesn't just cover easy things like cars and small boats, but more complex things like airplanes and helicopters, and even really esoteric stuff like semiballistics and nuclear submarines.
However, I don't think that most people do have a Car skill. The number of people that end up upside down in the ditch whenever they need to make a driving test (because it OMG! Rained! or something) suggests that most of them are defaulting to Reaction.
It'd be better, I think, to assume that most people can operate everyday vehicles sufficiently to get from Point A to Point B intact, but require skills for unusual or difficult vehicles, and provide a Flaw, the equivalent of Computer Illiterate, to handle those people who have no ability to operate a vehicle at all.
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| However, I don't think that most people do have a Car skill. The number of people that end up upside down in the ditch whenever they need to make a driving test (because it OMG! Rained! or something) suggests that most of them are defaulting to Reaction. |
That could also happen with a skill of 1 or 2, though. Snakeeyes comes up 1 out of 36 times
Heh, handsome Rob, now there's an example of a 6 or 7 driving skill, Elwood Blues being the 8 or 9 example
And where would The Transporter, James Bond, Bullit, or The Hire be?
ahhh we don't go ANYWHERE unless the rigger drives. You never know who the frag is watching and waiting to geek your hoop the instant you tool on down to McHugh's for a Black ICE-cream treat.
If you drive around with just reaction to get you out of a tight spot then you obviously haven't made enough enemies.
If you drive around with just reaction to get you out of a tight spot then you obviously haven't made enough enemies.
The real pimp mack daddy of car skill is Riding Bean, if anyone has seen that anime.
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