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cleggster
Hi, long time lurker, infrequent poster.

I originally read 4th edition back when it came out, and didn't care for it. So I just ran my old game. (I call it version 2.75. A mish mash of all 4) But now I am going to be running a game of 4th edition due to those being the books that are available. In typical “me” fashion I am running my own variant. So I went back and started rereading the 4ed book. But this time I am sorting out what things I really don't like and what are just me being an old fuddy duddy who fears change. http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/g...icons/icon9.gif

So I have been going over it for about a few weeks, and realized that it's got a lot of....gaps(?) in it. It was then pointed out that I should get the 20th anniversary edition. So I did and I admit the formatting is MUCH better. Great art too. But I have been working on this and think I have narrowed it down to a few key things that bothered me while keeping most of 4th edition intact. Basically, when in doubt, keep the rules as written. Even if every concession I make feels like I am dragging sandpaper over my molars.

I have really focused it down to 2 things that are REAL concerns. The rest is me just being old. But one of them is a dozy. What both me and my players want again are dice pools. You know, the choice you make between being accurate or safe. Or do you split the difference and try a little of both. So a combat pool, magic pool, driving pool(?) and hacking pool((??)maybe, more later).

So, still reading the book. And I have decided on two changes to the game, mechanics wise. One is making magic traditions have a larger variety between them. The other unfortunately is a big one. A change to the fundamental dice roll.

I just don't enjoy the rolling skill + attribute thing. It was the one thing I really disliked about the WoD games. Too often people who want to improve a skill would realize that it was cheaper and easier to increase the attribute. I like skills to be what you know and attributes to be who a character is. So I am changing the dice rolling from skill + attribute back to just skill with variable target number. Kind of necessary for old style dice pools. Also changing the target number has a bigger effect on your rolls then changing the number of dice. I figure that between that and a default target number for skills that need hits will work. I'm thinking a target of 4 so that you can still use those skills that don't get the benefit of a pool.

But, on with the questions. I have a few about 4th edition that I hope people can answer for me.


One is about initiative. In my version I still run with 1st edition rules. I like the fact that people who went all wired up can sometimes clean a room out before some realize what is going on. I understand who this is a little unfair, but diving for cover is always a free action. But I am willing to go with 4th rules on this. But my impression is that wiring up doesn’t give much of a chance to go first. Is my impression accurate?
The other thing is it seems that some players might not enjoy having the faster people getting all those free shots on them after they have taking all there actions. Aka, we all shoot then the samurai gets 3 more shots on us while we sit and watch. I realize that isn’t much different then having super-soldier go first, but at least they can anticipate doing something next. But I haven’t played it yet. So I could dead wrong. Is this something you have encountered in your games?
The other question is about damage. Without damage codes (light, medium, serious and deadly) do you find weapons to be lethal? In as such can you shoot an unarmored opponent with a Predator and be reasonably certain that they will be killed? I notice it has a DV of 5 and most people can take 10 “points” of damage on average. Do people often stage the damage up to 10? Same follow up question regarding Manabolt?

That will do for now. Thank you in advance for any answers. If anyone is interested I would be happy to post my house rules here for perusal. I might anyway so people can pick it apart and find the problems for me. http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/g...icons/icon6.gif Still going though the book page by page. Will say I LOVE the art.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 09:40 PM) *
One is about initiative. In my version I still run with 1st edition rules. I like the fact that people who went all wired up can sometimes clean a room out before some realize what is going on. I understand who this is a little unfair, but diving for cover is always a free action. But I am willing to go with 4th rules on this. But my impression is that wiring up doesn’t give much of a chance to go first. Is my impression accurate?
The other thing is it seems that some players might not enjoy having the faster people getting all those free shots on them after they have taking all there actions. Aka, we all shoot then the samurai gets 3 more shots on us while we sit and watch. I realize that isn’t much different then having super-soldier go first, but at least they can anticipate doing something next. But I haven’t played it yet. So I could dead wrong. Is this something you have encountered in your games?
No, most augmentation cause you to act more often and earlier. Initiative is calculated as Initiative Attribute+hits (5+) on the Initiative roll. Wired reflexes and most other similar augmentations add to the Initiative score (mostly by adding to REA, which has other benefits) as well as add passes. Since a higher initiative score also generates more hits you doubly go earlier.

Let's take Joe Average (REA 3, INT 3). His Initiative Attribute is 6 (REA+INT), so on average he goes on Initiative 8 and gets 1 pass.
Now we add Wired Reflexes I, II and III
WR I : Initiative Attribute 7, average result 7+2.33= 9.33, 2 passes
WR II : Initiative Attribute 8, average result 8+2.67= 10.67, 3 passes
WR III: Initiative Attribute 9, average result 9+3= 12, 4 passes

Those are only averages, the unaugmented joe can start between Initiative 6 and 12, WR III lets him start between 9 an 18, so there is still some overlap even though most of the time WR III will be a lot faster.

@Diving for cover: That is not a free action, only dropping prone is. As soon as there is lateral movement, you can only do it in your Action Phase. Additionally Free Actions in SR are a lot more restricted than in D&D (3.5 at least). You get only one per Action Phase, unless you sacrifice your other actions, and you can only use it then or later. In case of a sudden attack (read Surprise) dropping prone is not an option.


QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 09:40 PM) *
The other question is about damage. Without damage codes (light, medium, serious and deadly) do you find weapons to be lethal? In as such can you shoot an unarmored opponent with a Predator and be reasonably certain that they will be killed? I notice it has a DV of 5 and most people can take 10 “points” of damage on average. Do people often stage the damage up to 10? Same follow up question regarding Manabolt?
For a single gun shot, the damage is a bit low, but the double tap (two simple actions) usually is sufficient. Automatic weapons with adequate recoil compensation are deadly, as are direct combat spells.

I have no idea however how changing a core game concept (Attribute +Skill) will work with the rest of the rules. With the new experience cost for Attributes in SR4A I doubt that many people will raise their Attributes to improve their performance in certain skills. The relation Attribute/Skill is a lot better in SR than in oWoD. Here you have 8 regular Attributes and about 70 skills. oWoD has 9 attributes and 30 abilities.
Tanegar
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
I just don't enjoy the rolling skill + attribute thing. It was the one thing I really disliked about the WoD games. Too often people who want to improve a skill would realize that it was cheaper and easier to increase the attribute. I like skills to be what you know and attributes to be who a character is. So I am changing the dice rolling from skill + attribute back to just skill with variable target number. Kind of necessary for old style dice pools. Also changing the target number has a bigger effect on your rolls then changing the number of dice. I figure that between that and a default target number for skills that need hits will work. I'm thinking a target of 4 so that you can still use those skills that don't get the benefit of a pool.

I think you've got a solution in search of a problem. It's only easier to increase the Attribute up to a point (augmented maximums), and the fact that it is easier (up to that point) is a basic conceit of the setting. Moreover, extensive augmentation is only workable for some characters (non-Awakened, non-Emerged). If you have a Magic Attribute, a Resonance Attribute, or have already hit your augmented maximums, improving skills is much cheaper. As Dakka Dakka pointed out, the Karma cost of raising Attributes also went up in the Anniversary edition, from (new level)x3 to (new level)x5.

As far as variable TNs having a bigger effect than variable dice pools, that cuts both ways. A variable dice pool allows finer control over the degree of challenge. Admittedly, it's a matter of taste, but it's something to consider.
Midas
1) The attribute + skill = DP mechanic
As you point out, one attribute is linked to a number of skills so characters focusing on attributes rather than skills will have bigger DPs on more things than characters focusing on skills over attributes.
I have no idea how your ignoring attributes for DP house rule would work, and to my mind it might make attributes fairly redundant.
One house rule that some people use to try and increase the value of the skill in the DP is to cap the number of successes at skill x 2 or skill + 1. With this mechanic the average agility high skilled boxer (AGI 3 SKILL 6) should still beat the agile but less skilled AGI 6 SKILL 3 fighter most of the time, despite them both having the same DP.

2) Initiative
I too started at SR1 and came back to this new monster SR4 a few years ago. In many ways the new mechanic reduces the significance of IP, as in the old system the WR3 sammie would have shot 3 times before the poor now dead mooks had a chance to fight back. Now at least they (probably) get to go after he has shot once. You're welcome to try any house rule you like, but I actually prefer it this way.

3) Damage
Yes, SR4 really is a game of eggshells walking around with hammers, which is closer to RL. This encourages tactics a lot more, but don't forget to use all the DP mods for visibility, cover etc, and remind the players to take their thermographic smoke grenades to the party.

Good luck!
Jareth Valar
Sad too say, I too was a stoic curmudgeon concerning the change to 4th. Blatantly refused for a long while due to 20+years of my Shadowrun being a certain way. However, after having to print my rule book sized section of house rules I decided to swallow my distaste and give it a try. I realized, while 4th does have as you say "gaps", we do rather enjoy it quite a bit.

As for the initiative thing from 1st, the fact that a wired sam could clear a room before everyone else was one of my problems, but then again the "fix" they did for 2nd and 3rd with everyone going before anyone gets a second pass sat worse in my mind. We used a rule that was an option since 1st ed and was posted in one of the many superbly made fan supplements of the time (oh how do I miss the days of TSS, NERPS, Paranoind Animals, etc.). We had everything that gave you an extra die for initiative reduce your "pass number" by 2. So a Face with Boosted Reflexes 1 (+1 additional die) would subtract 8, instead of 10, to determine when his second action happened and the sam with wired Wired Reflexes 2 (+2 additional die) would subtract 6, etc. Everyone still rolled 1d6 and added reaction. Sammies invariably acted first, and many times twice before everyone else, but the extra actions were nicely interspersed so everyone had at lease a smidgeon of a chance to do something. Worked flawlessly for MANY years.

That is probably the main house rule I would re-implement if I could figure out a way to integrate it into 4th.

As for attributes being more important, as Midas said, limit hits to Skill x 2 and that should curb alot of that before it begins. We've added a house rule that raises the skill cap but makes is really expensive after 6 (or 7 with Aptitude).

While, at first, the skill+attribute thing annoyed me, it actually makes many rolls through the game a bit more intuitive and helps smooth areas that the other editions had a serious lacking in workable rules.

But, as it stands, mileages vary, and I wish you luck.
ggodo
My experience is guns are lethal with Runner pools. The 15ish dice to shoot for shooty types means that there's 5 hits on average, the way my players roll it's more like 8 or 0. Net hits on reaction is going to be in the realm of 2-3 with augments unless there's combat sense. unarmored is going to be seriously crippled, armored target is going to die to double tap with pistol. Also, called shots are great for when you need to one shot folks. Using APDS or SnS means they're going down harder and easier, automatic weapons are DEATH. I have no idea how numbers will play out with your dicepool method because that's apples and oranges, but in pure 4e guns hurt.
tete
Well 1e didnt have combat pool, and the dodge pool was = quickness, so essentially it was attribute plus skill there. Just a way to justify the attribute+skill if you need to. Just pull the skill caps off and at leased in some places you have 1e with fixed target numbers.
cleggster
Hmmm, definitely giving me food for thought. I think it is right to say that I should at least play 4th as written before rewriting everything. But of course I rewrite everything all the time. Can't help it. Compulsive that way I guess. For example I always keep grounding and living things being solid on the astral. And I am familiar with the issues that create, but I love the idea ivy covered buildings and exploding mages. But I will keep writing up my new rule set. I'm enjoying it. And the thing I know my group really likes was the old pools. Where you have to chose to help with the shot or help with avoiding damage. I always thought that the 2nd-3rd edition combat was my favorite system in a game. Even using it in some of my other games.

I really like that initiative idea with subtracting a pass number. Seems really cool. Thanks for the input folks. I think I will start with 4th ed straight before trying my rewrite later. But I reserve the right to make it more gritty and "80's".
Bigity
Just to be nit picky, 2nd edition had the same IP system as 1st. 3rd edition was the first to have the 'everyone goes once then speedy folks go more' deal.
Ol' Scratch
Regarding the Attribute and Skill problem, that was my biggest issue about 4th Edition, too. I absolutely hate that mechanic with a passion.

My solution for it, which I admittedly haven't had a chance to play test (and which I know 90% of the people here will fly off the handle about), was to look back at the earliest edition of the game and reintroduce "automatic hits."

Basically, your base Skill rating no longer provides bonus dice, but instead counts as automatic hits/successes. So when you go to shoot your Predator, you roll Agility dice and add your Pistols skill to the number of hits you make. Failure to roll any hits mean you glitch (even if your automatic hits still get the job done). Failure to roll any hits and rolling more 1s than you have Skill rating means you critically glitch (this would likely have changed early on since it penalizes large dice pools unjustly). In addition, the Rule of 6 was a standard rule for most dice rolls, and Edge was completely removed from the game. "Luck" is already being accounted for by the dice roll, dammit.

Specializations and bonuses from other sources (such as Smartlinks and Skillwires) continue to act as dice pool modifiers. The price of Attributes is lowered slightly (I was fiddling around with 8 BPs per point). I was also redoing the way Skills were handled altogether, which I don't really want to go into here because it's rather long and changes the game even more than this house rule does, but increasing their cost to, say, 5 BP/skill and 12 BP/group would probably work out fairly well. The same maximum rating limitations still apply normally during character creation.

I was also going to use a 15 dice pool cap, too, partly due to the lack of Skills granting bonus dice and partly due to the fact that the Rule of 6 plays a big part in things. The cap would be for the number of dice you could actually roll; you could still have a larger dice pool, however, allowing you to offset negative penalties and the like. But this, in particular, was one of the things I was going to keep my eyes on while I was testing it out.

There were some other minor changes, but I can't recall them at the moment. I know I had some new mechanics for defaulting, for example, but that played in with how I was changing Skills around in general.

Regardless, this would/will do wonders for changing that dynamic. Skills go from being a meh choice to a OMG Must Have, while Attributes are still valuable due to their secondary roles.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Oct 16 2011, 12:13 AM) *
Skills go from being a meh choice to a OMG Must Have, while Attributes are still valuable due to their secondary roles.

What table are you playing at that skills are a "meh choice?" Defaulting sucks.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Oct 16 2011, 01:34 AM) *
What table are you playing at that skills are a "meh choice?" Defaulting sucks.

Yes. Agility 1 + Pistols 6 is the preferred choice to Agility 6 + Pistols 1.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Oct 16 2011, 07:13 AM) *
Yes. Agility 1 + Pistols 6 is the preferred choice to Agility 6 + Pistols 1.


It is an old, and continuing, argument, I know, but I would rather have a higher skill than Stat (and in the end, my preference would be: Stat (Agility) of 3, with Skill (Pisatols) of 4 for that exact same dice pool). The Skill determines your proficiency with the skill. The attribute is only natural aptitude. Yes, the Pools are the same, but that is irrelevant. The guy with the higher skill is MORE SKILLED. ESPECIALLY in your untried system, where Skill is automatic Successes. wobble.gif
Manunancy
Personnaly I'd be very, very wary about the floating target numbers. With the low granularity of the scale, as soon as modifiers begins to pile up even a little it's soon impossible to achieve any significant results. The 4th eds mechanic of extra sucesses required / reduced pools is in my opinon simpler to manage and easier to guestimate.

On especially notable problem was the first 'or maybe second) edition's rule of removing the best sucess for each '1' rolled. which meant that when hard roll came (difficulty 8+), the lower the dice pool, the better your chance for sucess. Simply becasue each die rolled had 1 in 6 chance to dump the best sucess and less than one 1 in 6 to actually achieve a success. so the more dies rolled, the more likely it was that you rolled more '1' than sucesses and ended up with none.
Bigity
That sounds like star wars d6 not any shadowrun rule I ever read. And only some versions of star wars with the wild die.
Bigity
That sounds like star wars d6 not any shadowrun rule I ever read. And only some versions of star wars with the wild die.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Oct 16 2011, 09:13 AM) *
Yes. Agility 1 + Pistols 6 is the preferred choice to Agility 6 + Pistols 1.

Thank you, Captain Sarcasm! What would we do without you?!

Agility 1 + Pistols 6 is sure as hell the preferred choice to Agility 6, full stop.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Oct 16 2011, 03:17 PM) *
Thank you, Captain Sarcasm! What would we do without you?!

Agility 1 + Pistols 6 is sure as hell the preferred choice to Agility 6, full stop.

And where did I once say otherwise? Oh, right, I never did. I said, pretty damn clearly in the context of the entire post, that Skill boosts are a meh choice compared to Attribute boosts. It's an absolute no-brainer from a mechanics point of view. Not only are you getting the same bonus to your dice pool with an Attribute boost, you're getting it to every other associated dice pool plus any secondary benefits that the attribute brings with it.

In the system I described earlier, Attributes continue to be a strong choice, but Skills also become valuable in a completely different way. Attribute 6 + Skill 1 and Attribute 1 + Skill 6 are vastly different things. The former is more chaotic but potentially more powerful (since the Rule of 6 is in play), while the latter is a consistently strong but offers little variance whether good or bad and only applies to that specific dice pool.
Yerameyahu
Since you mentioned it again (as in every thread), TJ: until there's crunch that 7 != 7, it's never going to be true that Skill 6 is 'more skilled'. I'm fine with the idea that it *should* be, but the rules don't reflect it in any relevant way. So the way to make that a reality is house rules, not insisting it's true RAW. smile.gif
tete
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 16 2011, 03:16 PM) *
It is an old, and continuing, argument, I know, but I would rather have a higher skill than Stat (and in the end, my preference would be: Stat (Agility) of 3, with Skill (Pisatols) of 4 for that exact same dice pool). The Skill determines your proficiency with the skill. The attribute is only natural aptitude. Yes, the Pools are the same, but that is irrelevant. The guy with the higher skill is MORE SKILLED. ESPECIALLY in your untried system, where Skill is automatic Successes. wobble.gif


I agree, plus in 4e I cant remake my face that I played for 5 years strait because my unaugmented dice pools were to high on some skills....(negotiation and firearms) Well and he looses some karma pool. But if you ignore the skill caps its mostly a non-issue though perhaps not as good of a use of karma
Ol' Scratch
If you didn't extrapolate it from the rules I suggested, I completely agree that skills should be more important. I'm not sure why it's coming across otherwise.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 16 2011, 04:55 PM) *
Since you mentioned it again (as in every thread), TJ: until there's crunch that 7 != 7, it's never going to be true that Skill 6 is 'more skilled'. I'm fine with the idea that it *should* be, but the rules don't reflect it in any relevant way. So the way to make that a reality is house rules, not insisting it's true RAW. smile.gif


It is TRUE RAW Yerameyahu, and you know it, which is why I state it every time. It is fundamentally better to have a Skill 6 than a Skill 1. Period. Says so right in the book, in Black and White even. And the fluff backs that up. smile.gif

The Rules even reflect that. A Skill 1 gets you 1 die to add to the pool, a Skill 6 gets you 6 Dice to added to the pool. Objectively better. Subjectively better. Mathematically better. Factually better. Wow, look at that, it is Better all the way around. There is NEVER a point where Skill 1 is better than a Skill 6. Ever. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
No one said anything even close to about what you're saying. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 16 2011, 08:37 PM) *
No one said anything even close to about what you're saying. smile.gif


It was disputed above (to a degree), which is why I stated it. smile.gif
Even if Ol' Scratch and/or Tanegar was/were being facetious... wobble.gif
Yerameyahu
*shrug*. ANYWAY, the point has always been that 6+1=1+6 (for that one skill only, of course).

I didn't really dislike the SR3 system, though it's faded in my memory. Wasn't the main point of Attribs that raising skills above them cost double?

Heavy Gear (SilCORE) uses a Stat/Skill system that gives you 1d6 for each level of skill, and the *roll* is modified by your stat (-3 to +3 'population deviation'-type scale). So skill is vastly more important, but stat helps.
Stalag
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
But this time I am sorting out what things I really don't like and what are just me being an old fuddy duddy who fears change.
No, you're not wrong... 4e has some definite issues
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
One is making magic traditions have a larger variety between them.
Well, Street Magic has a large array of traditions... So do you mean like limiting available spells or something? The RAW differences are largely cosmetic fluff just varying what ability you use for drain resistance and what spirits you can summon and whether they materialize or if they have to have a vessel to possess. It would be nice if the differences actually meant something related to what they could do or something.
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
The other unfortunately is a big one. A change to the fundamental dice roll.

I just don't enjoy the rolling skill + attribute thing. It was the one thing I really disliked about the WoD games. Too often people who want to improve a skill would realize that it was cheaper and easier to increase the attribute.
Actually, here it's cheaper to improve the skill but, worse there's no prerequisite; so, in theory, someone could have Logic 1 and Cybertechnology... admittedly you'd only save a point or two doing so and any reasonable GM should disallow it or force the player to RP being mentally handicapped, but that it's allowed at all irks me.
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
I like skills to be what you know and attributes to be who a character is. So I am changing the dice rolling from skill + attribute back to just skill with variable target number. Kind of necessary for old style dice pools. Also changing the target number has a bigger effect on your rolls then changing the number of dice. I figure that between that and a default target number for skills that need hits will work. I'm thinking a target of 4 so that you can still use those skills that don't get the benefit of a pool.
You'd have to re-engineer a lot I'd think... the way it's set up now a skill of 3 in something is supposed to imply "trained professional" and an attribute of 3 is "human average"... so an average person who is a trained professional in their skill gets 6 dice which, using the hits mechanic, means they average 2 hits on a roll. A threshold of 2 is "average difficulty" for any given non-opposed action, so a regular person doing their regular job will, on average, succeed at what they're doing but will still fail a significant percentage of the time (about 40%). Should they be faced with a challenge (threshold 4) they will almost always fail (almost 90% of the time) unless they spend edge.

This is something I've had a problem with... even their own sample grunts you'll see a number with scores of 4, 5, and 6 so the person who wrote them up and the person who decided "3" was going to be the universal average/professional apparently didn't talk to each other.
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
One is about initiative. In my version I still run with 1st edition rules. I like the fact that people who went all wired up can sometimes clean a room out before some realize what is going on. I understand who this is a little unfair, but diving for cover is always a free action. But I am willing to go with 4th rules on this. But my impression is that wiring up doesn’t give much of a chance to go first. Is my impression accurate?

It usually improves your Reaction which, in turn, usually improves your Initiative... but by itself it won't mean they're going first unless they invest in pumping up their Reaction and Intuition on top of it.... and the NPC's you throw at them aren't also built the same. As others have said, the super juiced up folks should be rare.
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
The other thing is it seems that some players might not enjoy having the faster people getting all those free shots on them after they have taking all there actions. Aka, we all shoot then the samurai gets 3 more shots on us while we sit and watch. I realize that isn’t much different then having super-soldier go first, but at least they can anticipate doing something next. But I haven’t played it yet. So I could dead wrong. Is this something you have encountered in your games?
I've always found it to be a problem... it's not just that the "super fast" folks get more attacks or even that they get them after everyone else... it's how many they are getting. That souped up Samurai with 4 IP isn't getting 3 more shots... it's getting 2-6 more shots (depending on how many IP the target has) which is a bit ridiculous. (it could be getting in 3 more punches instead... but the imbalance between melee and ranged is for another thread). Some have house-ruled away IP's and just moved given those folks more initiative bonus others have handled it in other ways... most seem to just accept it as a necessary evil.
QUOTE (cleggster @ Oct 14 2011, 03:40 PM) *
The other question is about damage. Without damage codes (light, medium, serious and deadly) do you find weapons to be lethal? In as such can you shoot an unarmored opponent with a Predator and be reasonably certain that they will be killed? I notice it has a DV of 5 and most people can take 10 “points” of damage on average. Do people often stage the damage up to 10? Same follow up question regarding Manabolt?
Getting 5 hits would mean rolling with 15 dice, which sounds like a lot but really isn't once you start adding up all the bonuses and given most of the SR4 world seems to be wearing at least some degree of armor a lot will try and pump the dice up as much as they can. Even with armor, however, guns are still pretty deadly. Most combat won't last more than a few turns. Runners that want to survive should do what they can to avoid combat.

Manabolt is rough as well since there's not really any good way to defend against it. You can only cast one per IP, sure... but your average mook isn't going to have a caster hanging around to give them counterspelling so they only get to roll their Willpower to resist however many hits the caster pull out of his stacked up dice. Remember your average Willpower is going to be 3... Physical spells are a little more forgiving, the target gets half of their impact armor but the side effects are a bit more fun.
Yerameyahu
Don't forget multicasting. I mean, *do* forget it. nyahnyah.gif
Stalag
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Oct 16 2011, 02:42 PM) *
The 4th eds mechanic of extra sucesses required / reduced pools is in my opinon simpler to manage...

Give or take your physical ability to find, pick up, and roll a massive number of dice
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stalag @ Oct 16 2011, 08:59 PM) *
Give or take your physical ability to find, pick up, and roll a massive number of dice


I will say it again. Massive Dice is not a requirement unless you are gaming the system to get those massive dice. smile.gif
10-12 Dice is acceptable in any skill.
cleggster
QUOTE
... So do you mean like limiting available spells or something?


More differences then 5 spirits and witch attribute to use. I went though and divided up all the different magic rules and made then selectable between different traditions. An example would be magic circles. I brought them back and use them as an alternative to lodges. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Lodge seen as more useful, but permanent. Circle is portable but needs to be set up every time. So a tradition would have one or the other. Also Mentor spirits (totems) would be mandatory to a tradition. It either does or doesn't. Basically the core question for a tradition is does it practice Summoning or Conjuring? Do you ask spirits for help or do you order them up. From there you build a tradition from all the other options.

QUOTE
You'd have to re-engineer a lot I'd think...


What I have come up with so far is any time it says "dice pool modifier" I interpret it as "target number modifier". Just revers the the +'s. All other modifiers stay the same. The tricky thing is a default target number. I have been thinking of 4. (Except for magic, magic is just fine as written at 5.) I'm not that good at math so the question is does 6 attempts at 33% equal 3 attempts at 50%? I'm guessing not but it's not a perfect solution. Keep in mind I have not finished going though the book. I anticipate some issues with this in the gear section.

The curent plan is that when I start this game, play RAW SR4e. Then after a few sessions, switch to my rules and see what everybody thinks. They might all throw stuff at me for all I know.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 16 2011, 11:14 PM) *
That sounds like star wars d6 not any shadowrun rule I ever read. And only some versions of star wars with the wild die.


that can't be star war D6 : you sum up the dies and compare that total to the difficulty , you don't tally individual sucesses - and only a '1' on the wild die would lower the score, a '1' on any other simply means your goes up only by a pidly amount.

Stalag
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 17 2011, 09:09 AM) *
I will say it again. Massive Dice is not a requirement unless you are gaming the system to get those massive dice. smile.gif
10-12 Dice is acceptable in any skill.

IMO 10-12 dice is still a lot of small cubes to juggle for only averaging 3-4 hits
tete
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 17 2011, 03:38 AM) *
It was disputed above (to a degree), which is why I stated it. smile.gif
Even if Ol' Scratch and/or Tanegar was/were being facetious... wobble.gif


despite facetious I thought the debate was its a better spending of karma to start with a low attribute than start with a low skill because in 4e you get more bang for your karma with raising attributes. However 4Ae patched that pretty good. (not 100% on a skill monkey mind you but you cant make it totally even for everyone all the time). And for more abuses of this look at 2e... man attributes only cost x1...

*TN 4 is 50%, if you want to go that route and have some $$$ you may want to buy one of the Ubiquity engine games (Hollow Earth, Desolation, All for One) and use that as a guide
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 16 2011, 08:38 PM) *
It was disputed above (to a degree), which is why I stated it. smile.gif

No, it never was. And anyone with half a brain cell knows what the discussion was about.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Oct 17 2011, 04:55 PM) *
No, it never was. And anyone with half a brain cell knows what the discussion was about.


Well, then you should probably look into it then...
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 16 2011, 11:43 PM) *
Heavy Gear (SilCORE) uses a Stat/Skill system that gives you 1d6 for each level of skill, and the *roll* is modified by your stat (-3 to +3 'population deviation'-type scale). So skill is vastly more important, but stat helps.


I really liked the SilCORE system, unfortunately I never got to play it except making a "versus game" of me and Garou in Jovian Chronicles.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Oct 18 2011, 06:34 AM) *
I really liked the SilCORE system, unfortunately I never got to play it except making a "versus game" of me and Garou in Jovian Chronicles.


Was the Heavy Gear System decent? I played the tactical Minitautes version when it came out (for a couple of months), but never managed to get into the RPG Aspects of it.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2011, 11:38 AM) *
Was the Heavy Gear System decent? I played the tactical Minitautes version when it came out (for a couple of months), but never managed to get into the RPG Aspects of it.


Like I said, I didn't play Heavy Gear per se but Jovian Chronicles (the hard sci-fi setting). We played a mecha vs mecha combat just to get the feeling of the 3D combat they propose.
In the end, I liked it. Yes, the learning curve is quite steep but I really liked the idea of "real" three dimensional space combat.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Oct 18 2011, 08:45 AM) *
Like I said, I didn't play Heavy Gear per se but Jovian Chronicles (the hard sci-fi setting). We played a mecha vs mecha combat just to get the feeling of the 3D combat they propose.
In the end, I liked it. Yes, the learning curve is quite steep but I really liked the idea of "real" three dimensional space combat.


Ahhh... I never heard of the Jovian Chronicles.
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