As a starting piece of cyberware what, if any, are the advantages of this thing? If I read the rules correctly, it seems like it is a duplicate of another's retianl pattern. How could this be of use in a starting character? (ie. the Covert Ops Specialist) Is it just for flavor?
I don't believe it operates like a scanner or Maglock passkey. Am I wrong?
Full Version: Retinal Duplication
To decieve retinal scanning maglocks? But first, you have to get the retinal image you're duplicating, and then loading it onto the cybereye. As for the standard retinal mod, however, it does kinda suck.
There is almost no value for a starting character other than the character not having their original retina. Unless the GM and player have written the importance into the background - ie who's retina do they have duplicated?
There are none. It's so pathetically easy to defeat with a scanner (the scanner rolls a number of dice equal to its rating vs. a TN equal to your Retinal Duplicators -- even RD 6's aren't reliable enough to get you past a simple Scanner 3) that I can't figure out why it costs so damn much, other than that since it is so useless, no one's buying them so they're trying to make up for it by overcharging 'em (hence the slightly lower Availability over Retinal Tailors).
You're much better off bypassing the security system altogether. Retinal Duplicators, and to a lesser extent Retinal Tailors, are a waste of money and Essence when it comes down to it. Rating 10 ones might be worth the investment for a dedicated cat burglar-type, but only if you have a cool 500,000 nuyen to waste after you begin the game. In addition to the resources you need to get the retinal patterns to begin with.
You're much better off bypassing the security system altogether. Retinal Duplicators, and to a lesser extent Retinal Tailors, are a waste of money and Essence when it comes down to it. Rating 10 ones might be worth the investment for a dedicated cat burglar-type, but only if you have a cool 500,000 nuyen to waste after you begin the game. In addition to the resources you need to get the retinal patterns to begin with.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| There are none. It's so pathetically easy to defeat with a scanner (the scanner rolls a number of dice equal to its rating vs. a TN equal to your Retinal Duplicators -- even RD 6's aren't reliable enough to get you past a simple Scanner 3) that I can't figure out why it costs so damn much, other than that since it is so useless, no one's buying them so they're trying to make up for it by overcharging 'em (hence the slightly lower Availability over Retinal Tailors). You're much better off bypassing the security system altogether. Retinal Duplicators, and to a lesser extent Retinal Tailors, are a waste of money and Essence when it comes down to it. Rating 10 ones might be worth the investment for a dedicated cat burglar-type, but only if you have a cool 500,000 nuyen to waste after you begin the game. In addition to the resources you need to get the retinal patterns to begin with. |
Thank you.
I had a new group of players a while back and I broke the "freedom rule" by advising one of them that it was worthless. I called it a "freebie". Was I wrong? I think not.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| There are none. It's so pathetically easy to defeat with a scanner (the scanner rolls a number of dice equal to its rating vs. a TN equal to your Retinal Duplicators -- even RD 6's aren't reliable enough to get you past a simple Scanner 3) |
I was under the impression that it's an opposed test. I always have my players roll the rating of anything fake versus the rating of the scanner. I think it's just called "unreliable" because retina scanners tend to be quite high level.
Besides, you could also get them simply to destroy your own retinal pattern and avoid identification. You know, so that Dark Secret (is an escaped serial killer who liked to prey on the children of cops, mafia members, and hells angels) flaw doesn't come back to haunt you so quickly
It IS an opposed test ising any maglock passkey, scanners included. Someone's GM is being WAY too easy on them 
Its useful for defeating retinal scanners presuming you can aquire a copy of the retinal pattern you need. However, retinal scanners tend to be high level, so using a starting system (6 or less) can be risky. Also, depending on the situation, having this isnt a garuntee you can even use it (depends on where the scanner is and under what circumstances). Its really great for avoiding having your own pattern be identified, a good anonymous edge for SRs. Overall its got uses, but personally I think its overpriced and therefor specialty gear only if that.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| It IS an opposed test ising any maglock passkey, scanners included. Someone's GM is being WAY too easy on them |
Actually it's "being too hard on them" since I never realized it was an Opposed Test (and pitted the scanner's rolls against the PC's TN). But then again, neither has anyone I've gamed with so who knew?
Regardless, it's still a waste of resources. Hacking through the system is easier and significantly cheaper and generally more reliable. If you just want to change your own retinas, Retinal Tailors are cheaper and permament -- not to mention a risk for the Capital Punishment that Retinal Duplicators are since they're a one-time permanent treatment as opposed to a cybernetic implant that comes with a penalty on the same level as rape or premeditated murder if you get caught with them.
To compare the two...
Retinal Duplicators 6 = 150,000 nuyen (300,000 nuyen after creation). Rate of success equal to Retinal Scanner 6 (which for a scanner is just average) and piss-poor on anything higher. Etiquette and/or Negotiation (or other skills as appropriate) plus even more cash required to secure the retinal patterns.
Microscopic Vision + Enhanced Articulation + Microtronics Toolkit = 60,000 nuyen (95,000 nuyen after creation). Rate of success is higher (+4 target number modifier over working with maglocks, but lowered by -2 and increased skill by +1 die straight off) and no capital punishment simply for possessing any of them. Electronics and Electronics B/R skills required, but no additional resources. Can be used over and over and over again without any extra costs or difficulties.
The only possible advantage, but complete with significantly more risk, is that Retinal Duplicators would be faster, and they're only more reliable if dealing with signficantly substandard scanners.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| If you just want to change your own retinas, Retinal Tailors are cheaper and permament -- not to mention a risk for the Capital Punishment that Retinal Duplicators are since they're a one-time permanent treatment as opposed to a cybernetic implant that comes with a penalty on the same level as rape or premeditated murder if you get caught with them. |
The fact that these carry a death sentence is pretty fucking dumb, though. It'd be pretty funny to do a wetwork run by kidnapping someone, installing level 1 retinal duplication, and dropping them off at the local 'Star precinct
| QUOTE |
| The only possible advantage, but complete with significantly more risk, is that Retinal Duplicators would be faster, and they're only more reliable if dealing with signficantly substandard scanners. |
They're also far more covert. You can pretend to be someone else while anyone accompanying you is unaware, the guys in the security office won't see you whipping out tool kits on their video monitors, and you won't leave cracked casings or risk fucking up the lock
Clockwork, dont forget that things like anti-tamper systems can significantly screw the "b/r override" method. Plus they take far more time than simply passing the scan. If the GM sets up something like a closed box room on a closed matrix system where the system is programmed to scan the person, then either open or lockdown to detain them, and has a safety setting to autolockdown in 30 seconds if the scans arent forthcoming, well suddenly retinal mods are looking a lot better.
Obviously thats not commonplace, but really neither are retinal scans. This is a specialty piece of cyberware for characters that forsee its use. Even if you feel rating 6 is inadequet its *still* advantageous to buy so that upgrading is easier and cheaper later during game. Just because you feel its worthless doesnt mean that it is across the board, some games will have more or less opportunity for it to come into play.
Obviously thats not commonplace, but really neither are retinal scans. This is a specialty piece of cyberware for characters that forsee its use. Even if you feel rating 6 is inadequet its *still* advantageous to buy so that upgrading is easier and cheaper later during game. Just because you feel its worthless doesnt mean that it is across the board, some games will have more or less opportunity for it to come into play.
...and it's in these rare circumstances where you're better off just getting some Retinal Tailors. You already have to pay a handsome price just to get the retinal pattern, so might as well spend a few bucks extra for the Tailors. No sense in having a relatively easy-to-detect and highly-illegal cyber-implant for something that's completely useless 99.99999+% of the time when you can get something more effective, cheaper, and less dangerous for those one or two times it might be a necessity.
Like I said, about the only type of character it might be worth getting it for is a major Covert-Ops or Cat Burglar type who regularly take on SOTA facilities. Otherwise, you're pretty much screwed one way or the other.
Like I said, about the only type of character it might be worth getting it for is a major Covert-Ops or Cat Burglar type who regularly take on SOTA facilities. Otherwise, you're pretty much screwed one way or the other.
| QUOTE |
| ...and it's in these rare circumstances where you're better off just getting some Retinal Tailors. |
Unless you have cybereyes.
Technically it's still cheaper to get them removed, replaced with cloned eyes (a brand new set of custom Cat's Eyes cost only a mere 15,000 nuyen), and then apply the Retinal Tailors 10 (120,000 nuyen on the street). Compared to the half million you have to pay for Retinal Duplicators 10. Which is just another reason why they're so pathetically sad.
You get to reuse them, though. When you want to do it again, you're shelling out another 120,000 bucks. You also lose all your 1337 ultrasound mods, eye lasers, etc. for the duration of the run.
Hence me saying that it might be justifiable for a dedicated Covert Ops Specialist or Cat Burglar who regularly encounters high-end devices of this nature and don't mind being arrested and imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives if they ever step through a cyberware scanner. For anyone else, it's a complete and total waste of cash and resources.
I'm of the opinion that having these at all makes you pretty dedicated to covert-ops stuff. That's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
See the second condition. About not caring if you get your ass thrown in jail whenever someone notices the implant, which is pretty easy unless you start going into the Alpha or Beta ranges (hiking the cost to 1 to 2 million nuyen).
It really should be alpha, in which case I don't think it's easy at all.
Alpha provides a TN of 6 against a Cyberware Scanner's rating (and this time I checked -- it's not an Opposed Test). The average rating for a Cyberware Scanner is 6, so they pretty much always have a chance of detecting them every time they're encountered, though it does take multiple successes (or Complimentary Skill checks) to identify it specifically.
Yup, multiple 6's on rarely more than 10 or so dice. If the perception tables, etc. are any indictation it ought to take 4, but I think 3 is probably enough for them to ask for another walk-through or do a more detailed examination. It's not easy.
...but Cyberware Scanners are, especially when a Covert Ops or Cat Burglar type. I doubt if I would have a Retinal Scanner in a major facility without an attached Cyberware Scanner of equal rating just to make sure. And it's not just because I don't care for 'em -- it just makes sense from a security point of view.
Yeah, it makes sense, but so do many many other things. I learned a long time ago that one can design a building so intelligently as to make covert intrusion totally bloody impossible, but the game gets just a little bit frustrating. I mean, if I were a security consultant I'd make sure nothing was made out of Plasteel-7 too, but these kinds of oversights do happen and make for an interesting game.
That's where Negotiations (Bribe) skill and a fraction of the 1,000,000+ nuyen you had to blow come in handy, too.
Unless you start with a rating 6 and just pay the upgrade cost during game. Its only nuyen, and again some games have more or less to play with. As was pointed out, if youre in the situation to want the specialty character, you may be seeing the GM bring this into the game enough that buying the tailors each instance would cost more over time.
As for the legality, I cant think of but 1 or 3 runners off hand Ive ever seen played where they werent illegal by the nature of whatever stuff they had implanted. Ooohh its illegal so what, so is most of the stuff they do. Good SRs can stay in the shadows making the legality a moot point.
Granted, I still continue to maintain its a specialty piece of gear, but refuse to come close to saying that theres always a better alternative than it. It has uses and advantages, like em or not, that make it viable.
As for the legality, I cant think of but 1 or 3 runners off hand Ive ever seen played where they werent illegal by the nature of whatever stuff they had implanted. Ooohh its illegal so what, so is most of the stuff they do. Good SRs can stay in the shadows making the legality a moot point.
Granted, I still continue to maintain its a specialty piece of gear, but refuse to come close to saying that theres always a better alternative than it. It has uses and advantages, like em or not, that make it viable.
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