I've got a player interested in adding a Technomancer to the group I am running. I currently use the Attribute + Skill, hits limited by program rating, optional rule. With that in mind, I'm pondering the optional rule in Unwired, page 38, where CFs are bought at a flat rate with a dynamic rating, similar to spells.

I'm looking for input and feedback on this one before I make any decisions. Without even trying it I know it would make serious changes to things, which I don't know if I like or not. The ones that jump out at me are:

1. Threading becomes something only used for CF's that the TM doesn't already have. After all, there would be no need to thread a CF that you already know up when you can just use it at a higher value. Less threading can mean less dice rolls.

1a. When threading a new CF in this system, would it still only thread as high as your hits from a dice roll, or would you thread dynamic a dynamic CF like the ones you know already? I'm inclined to lean towards the former simply because threaded CF's aren't as integral to a character and therefore not as strong as ones purchased with BP/Karma.

2. CF's cause fading damage every time they are used instead of only when they are threaded. The values aren't terrible, 1/2 value CF was used at, but that still has the potential to greatly limit the ability of a TM to work for a protracted period. This also adds a roll to resist fading for just about every matrix action taken.

Are there other things affected that I've not thought of? My initial thought is that CF's are for more integral to the Matrix world than spells are to the regular, and astral, world. That being said, the idea of resisting fading every time a Matrix action is almost completely handicapping, not to mention the increased dice rolls affecting game flow. Even the offset of dynamic CF's doesn't quite counter this negative as I see things right now.

However, this isn't something I've fiddled with before. So, I am appealing to the DS crowd for input. I'm looking for Pros and Cons. I'm also hoping to hear from people that have a Pros and Cons from a theoretical standpoint as well as having actually tried it.

Thanks.

Well, one major issue with this rules set is that there is a Best Technomancer - namely, a cybered Logic-stream Technomancer. Logic adds to hacking, logic adds to fade resist? On an character where the ability to consistently soak moderate amounts of fade is key? It's very blatantly the best drain stat. No other type of technomancer is remotely close in ability.

I can't say overall how it would work because the rule is not actually complete. Namely, what happens when the Technomancer needs to know the rating of a complex form when they are NOT currently taking a matrix action with it? EG, they are hacking into a system and the system rolls against their Stealth rating. What do they use for Stealth? They aren't taking a matrix action with Stealth. How does this work? Or someone else hacks the technomancer's bionode; they should roll with Firewall+Analyze. What's their Analyze rating here?

How does Assist Operation from a sprite work?

How do Sprites work?

Thank you! Those are exactly the things I was looking for; other possible hitches in the system. More and more it seems that this optional rule does not work. Now I can give a reasonable explanation should the player ask about it.

That one O-RAW basically stops TMs from being OP. I don't think any other rules are needed.

I didn't start using the rule because of TM, this is the first TM I've had in a long running game. It was just a rule that I preferred for all hacking.

However, it seems that the optional rule that I do use also would have a serious affect on TMs and how things like Threading or Sprite assistance works. Something else I'll have to consider it would seem.

In this case, the player has limited gaming experience, but has been playing SR with my for almost 2 years now. This is just a new character. She is not a min-maxer so I'm not worried about that. She just tends to read about how things work regarding her characters to better understand them. In this case, her character is something of a scholar forced to make some money on the sly. Because there is already a traditional hacker in the group, she is mostly focusing on Sprites. In fact, her character is basically trying to become an expert on Sprites, and related Resonance aspects, in the Academia world. She will probably not start off a CF monster, so threading will mostly be used to give her some diversity. As we work on her character I'll have to keep in mind how the optional rule I do use will affect her.

How about giving a duration to using the Cfs, like spells? As in, you activate the CF, resist the fading, and then it stays on for a defined amount of time.

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting.

As I tried to say above, I think CF's work best as they are setup. I was never a big fan of the optional rule to use them more like spells. I just wanted to get feedback from others to see if my concerns were justified. As a GM, I've no problem simply saying no to things, but when possible I like to explain my reasoning to my players. The true purpose of this thread was to get info to either help confirm my concerns, or dispel them.

I probably misunderstood you, then. I thought you wanted to make this optional rule work...

No problem, thanks though. I always appreciate new ideas, RAW or not, because you never know when something will jump out at you or inspire something.

How does logic had to hacking?
Oh right, logic + skill.

The problem with Log+skill capped by Program is that it kind of screws technos.

The Houserule solution for such a system is rather simple, actually:
A technomancer, as an archetype, their whole thing is decking the matrix with their brain, and each stream has their own way of doing this. They are completely different than hackers, who just run programs, wheras a techno learns each individual program AS a skill.
Therefore, the technofix in such a system is stimple: Techno's have the OPTION(are not forced to, but are uniquely able) to roll Program+skill, old-school style. Yes, this means their complex forms do double duty - and yes, it means they're actually worth karma, instead of an even worse xp-sink. In effect, CF substitutes for attribute on the matrox for technos.


Our table uses a set of houserules for technos that makes them a bit worse, but more reasonably priced, and curbs high-end assist operation/threading abuse. I can provide them, if you like.

Udoshi is right that Attribute+Skill capped by program rating hurts technomancers badly. Actually, looking at it, I'd be hard-pressed to justify playing a technomancer. You give up a whooole lot compared to a hacker, and at the end of the day you get a higher Stealth rating (still meaningful), and sprites. Sprites are neat but not THAT neat. Hackers, meanwhile, get everything you do other than sprites for far less points. And that's assuming you are a Logic-stream cybered technomancer, otherwise a mundane hacker will outshine you easily.

Instead of giving TM a different system, one I generally don't like, tell me what you think of this idea:
TM's work just like normal Hackers, rolling Attribute + Skill with hits capped at CF rating. This applies to base CF ratings as well as CFs the TM normally doesn't have and they thread up. The only time things are different is when a TM uses threading to increase a CF they already posses. When they do that, let them chose how to spend the hits from the threading roll; choices would be program options, increase to number of successes attainable, or increased dice pool.

For example, a TM with level 6 Attack gets into a fight and threads it up, getting a full 6 hits. The fading damage is P since the new rating, 12, is over their Resonance of 6. These hits are spent to buy Armor Piercing 2, gain 2 more dice on the attack roll, and to up the numerical value of the program to 8 for all other purposes.

In other words, when a TM threads a CF they already know they can purchase an increased dice pool just like they do other program options.

Besides, when it comes to opposed rolls, the ability for a TM not using the above suggestion to increase their CFs allows for more successes per roll, which is not something to be sneezed at. A TM and a Hacker both have Attack rating 6 when engaged in a fight. The TM threads his adding Armor Piercing 2 and increasing the effective value to 8. This means that the TM can get 8 hits on an attack roll versus the 6 a normal hacker can get. Or, a hacker and a TM are racing to get into a system. Both have Exploit at 6. The ability for a TM to increase his max hits per roll over the traditional hacker can mean getting in a lot faster.

Letting TMs apply threading as a dice pool bonus instead of a hit cap bonus, and allowing the same for Assist Operation, I think makes things a lot better - the net result is both hackers and technos are weaker, but they're about the same relative to one another and that is oddly enough one of the best balanced aspects of SR4A.

Dice Pool Bonuses do not matter if you are constantly bumping your Hit caps without the Bonus.

That is why I suggested allowing a choice that could do either, or both, based on TMs desires.

Of course, all of this is only really an issue when dealing with the Attribute + Skill variant rules for the Matrix.

We pretty much, sort of, do what you suggested. Threading raises the Hit Cap of the CF by raising the CF Rating. It does not add extra dice. Hackers and Technomancers are essentially the same. What sets Technomancers apart are the lack of hardware/software prerequisites, Sprites, and the Echoes that are available, as well as the Resonance Realms. I see no reason why the basics of the Technomancer (Hacking) should be any different than the basics of the Hacker.