I'm fairly new to Shadowrun, although we've been playing for a few weeks now, and I've been lurking around these forums and learning a lot. There are a couple of things I continue to struggle with, so I'm wondering if you guys can provide any insight.

For context, we're a mostly "mirrored shades" group currently in the middle of On The Run... getting on towards the end, and I'm not sure where I want to take things from there... either another module or letting them drive themselves a bit and trying to keep up. Open to suggestions there, as well, but here are my questions:

1) Hackers in Combat:
I've seen a few references and explanations here about how hacking cyberware is not really much of an option, unless you are up against the dumbest of gangers with no mind for security. If that's the case, what are good options that hackers have in combat?

2) Legwork:
My group didn't take much in the way of contacts, and none of them have ANY social skills. (One of them has an Intimidate of 1, actually, but that's it.) Legwork seems to boil down to the hacker making a few matrix search rolls with his 16 die or whatever while the rest of the party waits for the 5 minutes it takes him to figure out almost anything. Occasionally there will be things that wouldn't be accessible online, I guess... but even that seems like a stretch. I can find out almost anything on the net NOW, much less 60 years from now. Is there an elegant way to deal with this that isn't a copout? The "5 minutes of searching then new scene" formula seems like it will get stale fast, and doesn't let the other players do much.

3) Social Interaction:
As mentioned in #2, my party has ZERO social skills. We were expecting to have one more player that might work as something like a face, but he dropped out. This leads to RPing everything at the table with players that are much more persuasive than their characters ought to be. Our hacker took "uncouth" even, and ended up being the front man in what was supposed to be an etiquette challenge meeting the Triad. I ended up giving them a pass based on not having a good idea of how else they could move forward. I don't know if this is really a "problem" per se, but does kind of undermine the value of social skills and lets them get away with things they didn't spend any points on.

Thanks for any input you might have!

First let me say none of the suggestions in this thread you are almost sure to get will mean jack dick if you don't do one thing first: Sit down and discuss this with your players. Explain why you think it's a problem, and see how they feel about it. With out players there is no game, so you need to be prepared to meet them at least half way, if not further. This isn't to say you can't find work-arounds or ways to effect change. Just that you need to play it smart chummer!

I'm willing to bet most of the answers you'll get here will be that Hackers suck, and most of the time they're probably right. That however doesn't help you very much. I'd say find ways for the hacker to interact with the environment-traffic signals, AR over lays, comms, drones-etc...In a way this can help your other problems. If they discover that with a little research they can find weak spots they can exploit-obviously not easily, and not with out danger.



Start by giving them contacts. Contacts don't need to be this mystical thing, nor do they always have to be super useful. Use them to plant bread crumbs for them to follow. Make some things accessible to Hacker-but make somethings only viable face to face.

In every game I plant multiple seeds, and multiple hooks-not all of them are even discovered. It won't be easy because it sounds like a fundamental shift in how your group thinks, as you describe them, but try to reward them for following up on hooks, or breadcrumbs. Don't punish them for not following your clues-but rather give specialized rewards and reactions to people who



Well obviously the solution is to not "let them get away" with stuff. Have actual consequences for social interactions. Force them to default to attribute minus modifiers. This can be another way to feed them contacts. You tried buying this gun from this guy and failed, but you've heard of this other guy who's kind of unsavory and sells the same gun but at a mark up...Eventually someone will say "Gee maybe we need someone who can talk."

These shouldn't result in punishment, but rather be ways of complicating things. Keep it fun, be fair and realistic with them. Communicate. Don't be afraid to throw them a bone here and there, but make them work for it.

All my players are new to the game as well, and I've tried to keep up communication between sessions to make sure everyone is enjoying things. We've already talked about these questions without really coming up with anything.

Once we finish On the Run, I do plan to have a one-on-one with each of them to figure out what they like and don't like, and what they'd like more or less of, etc...

Thanks though! I'm just looking for some tips from the vets.

In response to 1:Hackers are great for EW purposes, disabling cameras, and other things. Like an oppenent's comms. Usually though, given the 9 second combats (3 combat turns) shooting is a better option to disable your oopnent barring reinforcements or drones.

In response to 2: Would the corp keeps the top secret plans for its newest drone online and available. Also, what he finds on the matrix may be a lead planted by the opposition, someone who is wrong, or it might be grossly out of date. THe big problem with the matrix, is the amount of information and disinformation and sorting through all of it to find something useful. YMMV-but I usually limit the extent of the information on the matrix to general background information that points them in the right direction.

As to starting contacts, give everyone the same fixer. It makes the first run more convenient.

In response to 3: If your group is really into combat over non-combat challenges, that's ok. However, combat in SR is downright deady if done right (or wrong). I would walk them through a couple of combats just to get an idea of the lethality.

A lot of information, while possibly online, is not easily accessible. It could for example be behind a paywall, or only existing on an internal node, with a small access point. While you can have your programs filter through the SR equivalent of google and other databases like that, some things aren't up there. I doubt that you could find my address or phone number online if I gave you my name and country of residence, for instance. And this is in spite of my having typed them into various databases a fair amount of times.

So those matrix searches might just reveal things to the tune of 'X knows Y. Player N seems to remember his fixer having talked about meeting with that person once.' Then if you get more information to work with through that angle, your hacker can use that to refine the search.

Edit: and hackers in combat can work some cyber on the opponents if they hack the comms. If they have cybereyes or even a smartgun, they would probably need to have access to the matrix through the comm to see AR, for instance.

To 1. I'm playing a hacker in my current game and I tend to dominate play, even though I try hard not to. If we're not running a gang fight in Redmond, there's stuff to hack. It's a lot easier to get into the basement of the office building if there's a scheduled fire extinguisher check that evening, including the names and photos of your B&E expert and your face. Firefight with security? Kill their comms so they can't talk to eachother or call for backup. Then start shutting down cyberware and comm links. There's ways to protect yourself from that, but it usually involves skin link or DNI connections only. Which, if you've hacked their comm link, you beat. And when all else fails, I've got a control rig, a set of skill wires, a pilot helo 4 and gunner 4 chip, and a rotor drone with an LMG.

To 2 and 3. Assuming the we are playing actual shadowrunners, everyone has to play shadowrunners. As in, everyone should be able to hold a conversation, climb a fence, sneak past a dozing security guard, spot a security camera and shoot someone. You don't have to be good at it, but you have to know how to do it. At least 4 dice to throw for infiltration, etiquette, perception, a firearm and the athletics group. Of course if you're a mage you have other ways of doing things but still, you need to be able to get over a fence, drop a security guard from a distance and get someone to do something for you.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!

The Matrix info stuff makes a lot of sense. It sounds like I need to start getting more creative with how I parcel out information. Part of the issue is just with On The Run, which isn't really delving very deep into secretive material.

It also seems valuable to try and create more interesting environments to fight in (or not-fight in), with more for the hacker to do.


... and they REALLY need a Face. Perhaps murder is the answer.

They do need a face, but EVERYONE needs at least a couple of points of etiquette.

And everyone, technically does. They just have some default penalties, and some situational modifiers to overcome...

On the Run has got some rough reviews because of some of the scenerios it presents, but it should at least give a good chance for varying rules. If you follow some of the pre-made modules, there will definitely be times they will need to change up their tactics. Don't be afraid to challenge them with different scenerios where weapon caliber isn't a factor. But Paul hit it on the head. Start by talking to them, get an idea of their expectation and what everyone is looking for, including you.

I hesitate to ask, but what's the average age of your players? In my experience at least, younger guys especially tend to play towards shooting first, taking it more like a video game approach. If you're looking to get a little more involved with the setting, try adding more interaction and build the world up a bit for them. Make contacts more than just something on a character sheet. Make them characters worth knowing.

If you want Hacking a little more involved, have someone try hacking them in their next drawn out gun fight, and see how they handle it.

In response to your question, we are all in our 30s.

Generally, hackers in combat shoot. We had a hacker who was also the heavy weapons guy in one game, that worked pretty well. We mostly went to NPC hackers because the computer and hacking rules are a morass.

If you let everything be on the net then a hacker can do anything. However, every corp security guy knows what a skilled hacker can do. How are they going to protect a $350 million project from a hacker? Yup, it's not going to be on the net for your hacker to find.

The other thing to be kept in mind that the people who hire and equip corp security guys are pretty smart themselves. They should be played that way. They know about and use things like biomonitors, skinlink, firewalls, agents, subscription lists, encryption, jammers, etc. If you succeed in cutting their signal off their biomonitor drops off-line and alarms go off and people start looking for them on cameras while drones and spirits get sent out to find them.

Welcome!

1) Hackers in combat
Hackers tend to sling bullets as well as bytes in my game as well, even if it is just surpressive fire to support the sammie's charge against the goons. All the same, try to throw him some drones to hack some of the time as well. A Doberman costs less than 1 month of a security guard's salary, so drones should be a fairly big part of most corps defences.

2) Legwork and Contacts
As has been noted, there is a lot of data that just can't be got on the net, and if the www of 2011 is anything to go by there is much more disinformation than useful information out there. You can certainly give the players a few contacts as they go along, and perhaps offer the odd bonus karma award for characters that work on developing and using their contacts until everyone realizes what a good idea it is.

3) No social skills
As Paul suggested, leaving rewards in cheaper gear or whatnot for characters that develop social skills will get everyone realizing that at least one member of the team should branch out in this area.
I would also suggest that you don't be afraid to penalize them when the script calls for a situation the PCs have to shcmooze their way out of. For instance with your triad example, perhaps the leader could see a situation to exploit, and if the PCs bodge their default rolls could say something about their ill-manners and then reluctantly offering them the info they need to move onto the next stage of their mission for a hefty price, say 2,000 new yen. That should provide incentive for at least one team member to invest ...

Finally, as Paul said, you might want to discuss these points with your players and get their input so you can run a game they all enjoy! Happy running!

There have already been a host of good points made on this thread, so I won't rehash what has already been said. Now, some of my thoughts...

Bear in mind, while I have looked at a friend's copy of On the Run, I don't own it or remember much about the overall storyline or scenarios.

Regarding the meeting with the Triad: Penalizing the players is not what you want to do, but having your NPCs act accordingly to what the players do will only help immersion in the game and reinforce their role in it. If the person acting as the face at the time completely botches the entire situation, without glitching hopefully, the Triad members might decide to stick a tail on them and see what their up to, or give some allies/people owed favors to some background information on the PCs just to try and get a little something extra out of the encounter. If the player glitches on the other hand, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to thrown down right there and start shooting, even Triad members might show some restraint and wait until the PCs are out of earshot before turning to some cronies and saying "Go teach them some manners." That kind of situation could run from simply threatening the PCs with hostile action, possibly beating them up (if they can) or head straight to a firefight. There is always a lot of different ways you can tweak a situation depending on how the PCs come across, even the skilled Face character might draw some repercussions if they succeed at dice rolls but act like a complete jerk while doing so. Just take a close look at things in context and respond accordingly.

One question: what's the difference in varying Force for healing spells? Everything else has pretty much spelled out how increasing Force works (ie. extends range of Detection spells, is required for Increase Attribute spells, etc.), but there's nothing about it for things like Increase Reflexes (I houseruled it to require Force equal or higher than the higher of Reaction or Intuition), Heal, Cure Disease and Antidote.

Force limts hits. If you get 10 hits on a Force 2 Heal spell, only 2 hits count and you heal nothing...

There's three ways you can go. The one way is to be a backup gunman. Just because the Sam is way better at shooting than you doesn't mean that you (the hacker) have to be useless. Let him handle the really tough targets, while you give him some breathing space by taking care of the easier targets. Take a skill from the Firearms group, add a Specialization, Smartlink, TacNet and other gewgaws, and you've got 8-10 dice to shoot with, enough to force enemies to take you seriously. This doesn't have to cost more than 10BP to add to your character sheet.

The second way is to add rigging to your skillset. It's not a big distance from hacking, to add some combat drones and the ability to use them. It's more expensive than option 1, but has more growth potential.

The third way is trickiest. Think like a hacker: look at the world, at all the systems, and figure out ways to make them do what wasn't intended. Manipulate traffic signals, jam enemy communications, seize control of automated gun turrets, all that: basically you're changing the battlefield to your advantage, or at least causing chaos to the dismay of your enemies. This is the hardest way for two reasons: first, because hacking tends to take some time and a combat may be over before you've hacked anything. It's bad when you bump into enemies, but it can work if you've got time to prepare. And second, you depend on there being an environment that you can manipulate. It takes creativity, improvization, and a GM who's flexible enough to go along with it.





A popular house rule is to give everyone Charisma x 2 BP to spend exclusively on Contacts.

As has been said before, the Matrix doesn't hold all the information, and a lot of disinformation. Part of the reason you use Contacts is to consult people with expert knowledge, who can tell you what's actually true. Also, you can ask them to go looking for information they don't yet know, but could gain access to. Like a police officer checking a license plate.




Everyone probably invested in combat skills because they understand that you can die in combat, therefore it's important to be skilled at it.

Explain that social skills resemble that: badly failing at social skills can be deadly. To the whole team. For example: your team is carrying forbidden heavy explosives and stopped by the police, who are suspicious. While the Face can try to fast-talk them, the other team members might still fuck up. For example, the troll with Uncouth might run his mouth at "the pigs", making them angry enough to search the vehicle. Or the dwarf is so bad at lying and just shutting up that his nervousness tips off the cops, no matter how hard the Face tries.
In such a case, I'd ask for the Face to make the hard social check, but everyone else just needs a single hit on a Con or Etiquette check not to fuck up, which should be easy enough for normal people.

Evidently, they didn't build characters with social challenges in mind, but if you do want to inject social challenges now and then, then explain this to your players, and allow them to do some revising their stats so that they won't have to be so woefully bad at them, just because they misunderstood CharGen before.

After that, I say let them feel the consequences. Failure isn't always bad, it's a good teacher.

Are you sure it's not a house rule/optional rule from SM? I can't find anything about it in the SR4 (NOT ANNIVERSARY) corebook.

Actually hackers can be of use in a lot of fights... but a lot of their utility is non-combat or environmental. Bypassing doors, tricking security, etc.... For example... a hacker might spoof out a fake police report (assuming the gangers are smart enough to run a police scanner... which I'd bet they are and you're not in the barrens or similar area with no police presence).

Also don't forget that there's a lot of very nasty things you can do as a decker. Lets just give a simple example... round 1 fight breaks out... move out of sight, maybe fire your gun once to keep the side honest. Generally as a hacker, you won't have multiple meat combat passes... so that limits your abilities there. (if you really need them now and then, look into an inhaler with a dose of a combat drug for 2 passes now and then when it's necessary). Or spend an edge for a 2nd or 3rd pass..

It's very easy for hackers to end up with 5 virtual passes though. And an inventive hacker can do a lot of very nasty things. Example... a fight with gangers just broke out. After taking a round to get out of sight... maybe fire a shot and go full VR... (or using an edge to gain a 2nd pass to go full VR once you're out of immediate danger)... you can then very easily say hack that parked car across the street... then use it to do a hit and run :). (ramming rules are reasonably brutal).



Heal spell:
Heal is kinda special since it's drain code is unique... any mage will generally only cast it at one of two force levels. Force == Magic or Force == 2x Magic. Why the drain is wierd... it's the targets physical damage -2... so a troll could very well sock you with 8 drain no matter what force you choose. So if you cast it at force... that drain is only stun and you can eliminate it with a few hours rest.

There's a related spell called 'awaken' which is just sustained, but allows the target to ignore stun penalties. But has a similar drain code. There's been a few times I've used that spell to create a force 10+ wrecking ball. (if a ward and a spell are in opposition each rolls 2x force... and the loser shuts down. Since the drain on the spell is nearly nothing, you can cast it at your maximum force... and turn something into a wrecking ball... like throwing a cat down the elevator shaft with it to take out the ward on the elevator shaft. (evil kitty had it coming).

A lot of people also miss the second part of this rule. If your non-combatant mage has a solid healing focus (health mentor, specialization... etc.). He can toss enough damage to heal 1-3 points of damage nearly instantly. (each extra success reduces healing time), I've used this in the past to pull the equivalent of a DnD cleric. Street sam trading shots from the corner of a building... I'm standing beside him out of sight... he gets hit soaks most of the damage... each round I then proceed to instantly heal the 1-2 points of damage. (permanent spell... sustain duration must be == drain... drain == damage -2... 0 turns, or 1 turn sustain for 3point.. etc. normally heals 1 point per combat turn (not pass), however extra successes decrease this by 1 turn each... so it is possible to instantly heal light PHYSICAL wounds).

P171 "Force".

Force limits successes/hits (not net hits...).

The only argumentation occurs in the last bit... if edge is used... this limitation doesn't occur for edge dice... what are edge dice?! If you apply edge before the roll all the dice are subject to the rule of six and could be considered 'edged' (in fact I've commonly heard this referred to as edging all the dice). After the check rolling only edge dice seperate?! Only the dice added to the pool originally from edge... Most people I've seen simply just go with... if you spend edge on the casting roll the force limit doesn't apply anymore.

There's really very little reason to do this except lets say if you're trying to be stealthy/subtle. (if your magic score is already low... then the amount of drain you'll get from overcasting and your tiny dice pool is unlikely to matter much) TN to notice someone casting a spell is 6-force of the spell. So you could edge a force 1 casting of something like influence or alter memory... and make it very hard to notice (5 successes on the perception test).

Yeah, great way to write rulebooks. If they at least repeated it in the "casting step-by-step" sidebar, I might have caught it. It also shows how stupid it is in relation to, let's say, Heal spell. I got a shot-up guy with 8 boxes of damage. I have exactly the same dice pool and drain value regardless of what Force I use, but if I overcast (and there's no way I could get 8 hits without using Edge) I'm gonna go splat and if I don't, sticking to 5-6 Force (a good mage doesn't go below 4), I'll just eat a fuckload of Stun damage.
'tarded.
And one more thing: Increase Reflexes. There's no need to cast it with Force higher than 4. Even more 'tarded.

1) Deckers in combat don't have to just run Matrix tricks. They can shoot, they can rig, they can do anything that anyone else can. The old combat decker archetypes looked suspiciously like light sammies in a firefight. Rigging drones is probably the easiest way to add combat utility, though.

2) In SR4.5, deckers do dominate legwork. I've noticed that a lot of time is spent searching out details on the Matrix. What you can do is have some information only available through face-to-face meets. The decker does the data search to figure out who would be a good person to talk to, then the team goes to see them.

3) Don't forget about defaulting. Assuming a decent Charisma, there's no reason why people should even roll for normal social interactions. Now, if your entire team took Uncouth or dump-statted Charisma, then you've got a slightly larger problem. They'll need to invest in social skills and Charisma, plus social-boosting tricks, of which there's a ton.

One of my players rolled an Elf Shaman. I helped her with the numbers - softcapped Charisma + 1 rank in Influence group and boom: instant 8 DP on most social rolls (6 on Intimidate). Doesn't look like we'll have a dedicated Face, so she'll have to do. Apart from that, she can stunbolt pretty much anyone into oblivion in one shot, and shrug the overcast off.

I've been GM'ing SR4 for a while, but only this year did I get to start running face-2-face games so I thought I would share some things I noticed.


1) Hackers are always wanting to do something cool in the Matrix. So, when planning out locations and NPC's and such, it's often good to have physical info handy, it is also good to have some Matrix info ready to use. Also, cyberware tends to be slaved off to a persons commlink and /or skinlinked. Either way, if you can hack the commlink, then you may have an in to it. This is more common than turning off wireless to cyberware, because it is harder to run diagnostics or maintenance without it. Chances are though, in a combat situation, the only time your hacker will get to do cool stuff like this is when you are facing people you can't take down in a single round. Now, this stuff is great for getting eyes on to an area with no cameras Or with just CCTV.

2) I often view legwork as more than just "where is the fight?" or "where is the heist?". Sure, the hacker can do a lot like , figure out where the guards at the front desk live. But it will take others to bribe him, or to "borrow" his passkey. Schematics on the Matrix can out of date, or just plain wrong (This tactic is used by secure installations in real life). Someone might want to crawl in and check the ventilation shafts to be sure. Astral security would need to be reconnoitered by the mage. If you need equipment, someone has to pick it up. Sometimes these events don't got to plan. If the hacker is doing all the legwork, then there isn't enough action involved in the legwork. Often legwork can involve "mini-runs" just to set the stage for the main event.


3) Contacts and NPCs are for more than just information. They get you your gear. They are the street docs who patch you up. They are the cops who can make physical evidence disappear. They are gangers who can run diversions, or smugglers that can get you into Aztlan or across Sioux territory safely. Even get you into a fancy club that would otherwise be off limits. Now if something is required for a mission, then there will always be another way to get it. For much steeper costs. Of course this can lead to Noteriety, or inability to pay for living expenses. Sometimes, they may not be able to re-coup losses from the run.


Just a few ideas Good luck with your group!

Why wouldn't a "Good Mage" go below Force 4? MOST mages in the world are not going to go above 3... As that is usually Physical Drain for the vast majority of them. The conceit that you suck as a Mage unless you have a MAgic of 5+ is just that... A Conceit...

AS for Increased Reflexes... there is a reason to cast above force 4, Background Count being the primary reason. If you stick to Force 4 or Lower (I do) you do need to worry about the BGC's. I just deal with it, myself, but if you do not want to deal with it, then you cast it at Force 6 or so and then you have a cushion for your IP booster.

Strongly disagree. The presence of initiations to me means your average mage has 0-2 initiations and a magic of 3-5.

Mundane average attributes don't have initiations/submersions to worry about.

I think it's a fallacy to talk about "average NPC mages with Magic 3" when discussing the balance of game rules primarily used on PCs that tend to have a Magic in the 4-7 range.

And I think it is a fallacy to base Shadowrun world arguments on the often hyper-optimized Magic ratings of PC's in the game. NOT ALL PC"S have a Magic of 5+ with Multiple Initiations (and attendant Magic raises). Most such characters are inherently going to be Edge Cases. It is usually the disconnect between Concept and Mechanics in application. *shrug*

BC is the only reason, but in normal conditions Force 4 is all you need. Unless you're a shaman stuck in a Thaumaturgy lab or you're trying to work in the ass-end of LA Sprawl flood zone.

I'd hardly call Magic 5 hyper-optimized. I think it's really middle of the road for mages actually; either soft-maxed magic or hard-maxed with just a few implants. Altogether I think the average Magic for starting mage PCs is 5, and that 3 and lower are actually the weird cases.

Force 4 is all you NEED, yes...

If it was middle of the road, all mages would have a 5 Minimum. The fact that the world average is more around the 3 range indicates that 5 is not the norm. Again, most people here on Dumpshock tend to argue from the Hyper powerful perspective. Which I see as wrong. Just because you have a Mage with a Magic 5 or 6 as a PC does not make it "The Norm." It is only "The Norm" because many here do not believe that you can have a viable Magically awakened character with less than a 5, which I heavily disagree with. You said it yourself, above... A PC does not an average make, and I would argue that PC Mages are hyper-inflated because of the perception that you MUST have a Magic of 5+ to even be viable, which is the fallacy. Why is an average Magic Attribute (3) Weird? It is the worldwide Average, after all.

Perhaps Magic 5 mages are uncommon in the setting, but not as PCs. And it's important that the rules work well for PCs - they need to be balanced for characters that people normally play, not theoretical Average Joe NPCs.

I disagree with the notion that you "don't need Magic 5" as a PC mage. If you want combat spells that do enough damage to be scary (8-10) without overcasting (which is supposed to be rare), then Magic 3 isn't enough. A Force 3 spell can do at most 6 damage, but there's even a good chance it gets resisted completely, doing no damage at all. A F5 spell can do 10 damage, barely enough to one-shot someone who gets absolutely no hits on resistance.

The rules DO work well for PC's, in my experience at least. Why do Combat Spells Need to be "Scary" in their effects. They are scary enough in their implementation. A mage thinks a thought and the target takes damage equal to a Light Pistol (Force 3, 2 hits, 1 resisted), while he totally ignores anything such as Drain. THAT is scary. You do not have to portray magic as so overwhelmingly powerful that the non-magician cowers at the mere mention of the word. It is already scary enough as it is, per the Books.

I think that you (and probably most on Dumpshock) and I have a fundamentally different view on the World of Shadowrun. And the primary divergence is that PC's should be concepts rather than mechanics. If you chase the mecahnics, then the concept falls to the wayside, and the result generally has very little to do with the what was initially created. And if it does, it is only marginally, at best. Unfortunately, you can just look at Dumpshock (Both in the characters that are generally created as "Thought Experiments." and in the advice given to others when they post their "deficient" characters looking for advice) to see that Mechanics generally (probably more often than that actually) tend to trump Concept (Though there are a few people who fight that tendency and stick to their guns, so to speak). It is sad, but true, situation. *shrug*

Now, yes, I agree that sometimes it is nice to play Billy Bad-Ass the Magician, with over the top magic and foci (Everyone plays at least one; and some make a career out of it). But I find that it loses its lustre rather quickly. *Shrug*

No Worries, Ascaphalus...

Actually, the average Magic rating is around Zero. 99% of the population is mundane. So, talking about the average in a stat that only 1% of the population is supposed to have is a little disingenuous, don't you think?


Yes, we base our worldview on Canon and Fun. And characters can be both hyper-optimized and true to their concept.

Magic is rare, and powerful. Magicians who play up being powerful *are* being true to their concept. The relationship to magic should be their most prevalent roleplaying item, and needs to be reflected in their stats. There's no reason why a magician would want to be low-powered; every magical tradition encourages some form of initiation and development down their path of Magic. Doing anything else isn't "roleplay", it isn't "being true to your concept"-- it's setting out to annoy the other players.

How I missed that. Not. TJ, Cain: stop it.

EDITED: Sorry Grinder... Pulled Post once I saw yours. You must have posted as I started my Reply.

Though we had not even really started into it yet... I did/do have some relevant points *Shrug*

Sure.

You just gave me the idea for a joke NPC character: a M3 wagemage looking like a mart shift manager (you know the look, dress shirt with no jacket, cheap tie) with a nametag (of course). What's on the nametag? "NORM".
One problem: your street sam can fire the light pistol four times per turn at least (Reflex Booster 1, no aiming), while the mage does it once a turn. However, building the shaman for my PC I noticed that a caster built for high Drain resist pools can one-shot anyone with an overclocked Stunbolt and resist all the Drain. F10 stunbolt has only 4 DV, which means that an elf shaman with 12 dice statistically shrugs off the drain while his enemy gets 10-13 stun damage to the face. There aren't many enemies whose Stun tracks go over 11.

I do not see that as a problem, though... And an Overcast Stunbolt at Force 6 is still just as scary. For the same no Drain (Though a Force 3 spell is likely to go completely unnoticed by anyone, so...). The fact that the mage can perform that with no weapons in hand, and with a Glance is the scary part. Yes, GUNS are Scary too. And Yes, a Street Sam is going to pull that trigger twice (or 4 times if Guns Akimbo), but that is how it should be. If you try to make the Mage equal in speed/deadliness, then the Mage will be the only character archetype in play. I think it is a viable tradeoff. I am completely okay with the Street Sam pulling that trigger multiple times to the Mage's single dice roll.

Edit: never mind.

However, there is something to be said for making sure that your rules still actually work at those lower values. For example, there's no way for an average enchanter (Magic 3, Enchanting 3) to make an actual living (Low to Middle Lifestyle) with the Magical Goods rules as written in Street Magic. (Had to come up with about half a page's worth of house rules to get that to actually work, as well as defining some of the more vague areas)

EDIT: I should explain what I mean, here: By book, buying ritual materials (like binding supplies) costs 500 per point of Force. However, making ritual materials costs--minimum--400 in supplies and takes at least a day's work.

Let me run through the numbers: Magic 3, Enchanting 3, and let's be generous and give an Alchemy spec. That's 8 dice, enough to buy two hits, or statistically get 2.66 (repeating) hits per roll.

Now, let's make a unit of Force 3 binding materials. Buying the cheapest raw reagents costs 50 per unit, 100 for refined, 200 for radical. It costs 12 refined or 6 radical units to make the Force 3 binding materials.

Refining the 12 raw reagents (costing a minimum of 600 ) takes an Enchanting + Magic (12, 1 day) test. Buying hits means that this will take 6 days, or rolling and getting 2 2/3 hits per day means that it takes 5 days. Now enchanting those 12 raw reagents into a Force 3 binding unit takes another Magic+Enchanting (Force, 1 day) test, meaning that, buying hits or statistically, it'll take a day and a half to two days to complete. Right now, that means we're at about a week--7-8 days--of work, and we have one unit of Force 3 binding materials to sell for 1500 , netting us 900 in profit. That means that average monthly earnings is about 3600 --well short of a Middle lifestyle at 5000 per month. And this is only if you only buy the cheap materials.

First, a quote from Street Magic...



Second... You forgot to add some simple dice pool modifiers...

You get additional Dice if you are using Telesma and Reagents in the construction of items...
Assume +0 for Telesma (Bonus ranges from -4 to +4 dice),
You get +1 PER REAGENT (Cumulative per type used),
You get +2 for Orichalcum (Yes, Very Expensive, I know),
Aspecting nets you an additional +2 Dice...
You can also get bonuses from Spirit Allies/Bound Spirits from either Teamwork Tests (They can have enchanting after all) or through direct assistance with Aid Enchanting (Optional Rule).
And never forget the Foci that you can use to aid you in your endeavors... Enchanting and Power Foci.

You also lose dice based upon the Force of what you are making, -1/Force point

And for the meat of the Enchanters Business... You have Talisman and Fetishes, which are a 4, 1 hour test.

If you are making Talisman, Fetishes, and Binding Materials, you can do okay. If you make an occasional Focus or two per month, you will be at that Middle Lifestyle pretty handily, and maybe even at a high lifestyle.

But let us not forget... this is not Enchanting, the Business... it is Shadowrun. The character is not running a business to make ends meet, he is running the shadows to make a living. The typical Magical Perveyor does okay, even with his 8-12 Dice. Those that have the backing of Corporations are doing MUCH better than okay.

Those modifiers are for foci enchantment. Not for alchemy. There are no modifiers for alchemy, unless you want to spend valuable time and effort binding spirits (and, if you're an aspected Enchanter, you're SOL).

And TJ, you're very, very wrong about "If you are making Talisman, Fetishes, and Binding Materials, you can do okay." A good chunk of the Fetish costs will make the enchanter lose money or come very close to breaking even: fetishes require a refined or radical reagent, cheapest refined reagent is worth 100 ... and detection fetishes cost 50 , and illusion fetishes cost 100 . Talismans are worse, though; they require a radical reagent; cheapest radical reagents cost 200 ... and a talisman has a flat book cost of 100 , which, unless I really don't understand math, is, at minimum, half the cost of the materials it requires to make! And that's if you use the cheapest stuff!

And as for enchanting foci, okay, let's run the numbers. Going with my average enchanter again (Magic 3, Enchanting 3, and I'll be generous and switch the specialization to Artificing for 8 dice) Okay, let's make a Force 4 Power Focus (value of 100,000 ) and a Force 2 Weapon Focus (value of 20,000 ).

Including the rule of having a cumulative -1 modifier (SR4A, pg 64), and being as generous as possible, the Power Focus has a dice pool of:
Attribute 3
+ Skill 3
+2 for spec
- Force 4
+ 4 for exotic telesma
+4 for radical reagents (4 of each type, for a total of 16 reagents, with a minimum cost of 3200 )
+ 2 for a unit of orichalcum (cost of 50,000 )
+2 for an aspected enchantment
for a final dice pool of 16
and a threshold of 16 (assuming Object Resistance 0) and an interval of 1 day.
Statistically, this gives us 5.3 hits the first day, 5 the second, 4.6 the third, and 4.3 the fourth, meaning that the focus will be finished in 3-4 days and a total profit (not counting the cost of the exotic telesma or the karma point needed) of 46,800 . Not bad. But it results in a focus that has an aspected enchantment on it (which should decrease the value, IMHO), and the cost of the exotic telesma and more expensive reagents will take a big bite out of that profit, if not annihilate it completely. (Also, due to the karma expenditure, crafting foci is a "once in a while" type thing, not bread-and-butter, unless you give your NPCs a karma every few days for sitting around in the magical lodge on their bums working on enchanting)

But for the weapon focus: a dice pool of
Attribute 3
+ Skill 3
+2 for spec
- Force 2
-4 for mundane telesma (on the logic that manufactured weapons will actually stand up to the abuse of stabbing and slashing through body armor better than a sword manually hammered out from meteor iron or some such)
+4 for radical reagents (2 of each type, for a total of 8 reagents, with a minimum cost of 1600[img]http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif[/img])
+0 (no orichalcum as its cost of 50,000[img]http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif[/img] is more than the focus is worth)
+2 for an aspected enchantment
for a final dice pool of 6
and a threshold of 20 (OR 4) and an interval of 1 day.
Even without the limit of not making more rolls than your Attribute+Skill and the cumulative penalty, you're only looking at, statistically, 2 successes per roll, meaning that it takes 10 days--and there's a high chance of a glitch or critical glitch. With the limit, it's neigh impossible.

Oh, and I'm quite aware that this is Shadowrun, not Enchanting: The Bookkeeping. But when I'm running a day-to-day game and one of my PCs has a boyfriend that's an enchanter, I'd like to be able to use the numbers provided to model his output without getting a result of garbage in, garbage out. That's my point that I was trying to make: that, yes, a runner won't be needing these rules to make a living because he's shadowrunning. However, I'd like it if the rules could work for what they were then apparently intended for: modeling the output of NPCs who don't go on shadowruns.

Did you even read the quote I posted? Apparently not.

And if you make One Rating 4 Focus per Month (5 Days was it?), you break way more than even (what did you posit... 46800 Nuyen Profit?), Which is what I said above. And aspecting is not crazy... I actually expect my foci to be Aspected, because that makes more sense. Are you going to create A Focus for No Tradition, or are you going to create a Focus that is aspected to Voodoo, or Black Magic. All Foci are aspected to the tradition of the creator, in my opinion. It should not be any other way.

Any other way makes Foci just too damned stupid...

As for Bonuses on Foci vs Talisman, Fetish, etc. They are Enchanting Bonuses/Penalties. SO I see no reason why you should not use them. Though to be fair, I agree they are in the Foci section. However, ALCHEMY is not a Skill, ENCHANTING is... And since the bonuses are for ENCHANTING...

There are also the additional rules in Arsenal where a
Kit Gives a +2 Bonus
A SHop gives a +4 Bonus
and a Facility Gives a +6 Bonus...

If you use those additional rules, your DP also increases respectably.

And for the record. I do not Use Enchanting with the Character I am playing, so I have no vested interest in using the bonuses or not. I just noticed that they are there.

Okay, at this point, I'm gonna just drop this, because I'm either having a critical communications failure or feeding a troll. I'm hoping it's the former, but having to keep redoing my replies for excessive and biting sarcasm means that I've gotten a little too invested in arguing with you, TJ, and that's a bad thing.

I would agree with this. The average corp-mage undoubtedly has an initiation or two under their belt, if only for Sympathetic Linking to make corporate ritual investigative magic USEFUL - and corps maintain their own in-house initiatory groups for just such an occasion.



I think this is more to do with the brokenness of Indirect combat spells than anything else.
Try the calculations again with the Indirect combat spell that does stun damage. (i want to say its the Clout line)


bibliophile20: The Enchanting Shop mentioned in Street Magic should give the usual Tools bonus to any such tests, which may just swing your 'average expected hits/buying hits' formula just a bit more towards reasonable.
also any magician/enchanter worth their salt is going to be using a summoned spirit with guard to rush job at no penalty

Also, if you want a system that breaks down at low dice pools, look no further than THE MATRIX. Device ratings of 3? IC ratings of 3? Welcome to GLITCH CITY! All aboard for crashes-to-desktop!

How can the average mage run from 3 to 7? Pick one.

No worries bibliophile20... I enjoy the discourse, if nothing else.