Engulf is treated as a melee attack. Finishing Move allows a second melee attack after a successful first one. So, a Free Spirit with a Martial Arts Quality and the Finishing Move Maneuver would appear to be able to Engulf a foe and try for a second hit with the maneuver. Thoughts?

Nasty thought: Since Engulf automatically hits in successive rounds unless the defender escapes, would this mean that the Finishing Move Maneuver, if allowable, also automatically hits?

I see no reason why you can't use Finishing Move after Engulf. However, as to the second question, the answer is "no", because it deals damage automatically, but does not hit automatically.

So, then, would that mean that a Finishing Move would start a second engulf?

I'd only allow it if the spirit performed a for-real melee attack as the follow-up, none of this exploit silliness. Grabbing them with magic and *then* punching them is badass. I'd be real surprised if a FS had karma to burn on this, though.

I've been trying to figure out a way to make a FS who isn't the basic magician, full stop. (Yeah, yeah, I know they have the other stuff.)

A work in progress.

Also, since Finishing Move uses your next available action, I'd say that that would likely interrupt a sustained Engulf.

That seems fully fair.

Hmmm.... that's a good point.

Besides: engulf is "treatet" like a melee attack, it is not a melee attack.

I 'treated as' does not mean 'use the same rules', then what does it mean?

It means that you use the same rules, but the GM's judgement applies heavily. This also applies to Immunity to Normal Weapons being "treated as" Hardened Armor.

Spirit sustaining does not work like magician sustaining, doncha know?

I'm not talking about sustaining a spirit, I'm talking about a spirit 'sustaining' the engulf power.

Let me put it another way, that doesn't use terminology that other rules use:

Also, since Finishing Move uses up your next available action, I'd say that that would likely break the spirit's hold of the engulfed person.

Compare it to a person holding someone down, then using finishing move to pummel him. On his next action, he can't do anything, which could be argued to give the person a free chance to escape (I know, this is not the rules for melee combat, but Engulf isn't exactly melee combat).

So was I.

Unlike mages, sustaining a spirit power doesn't give a dice pool penalty, nor is it subject to having 'concentration broken' (4a 184).

I'm not sure you fully understand how the power works. There is no 'hold' that can be broken - a spirit does not have to maintain physical contact to maintain the engulf. They can touch you, and just walk away while letting you suffer the engulf. Some spirits can even use Engulf as a ranged power(street magic, see invoking), and other spirits don't even have a physical manifestation to their engulf(Guidance)

A spirit can even have multiple people Engulfed at once. Like I said, critter power sustaining is fundamentally different than mages. They can have up to their Force(it might be Magic, but its the same for spirts) in active powers at once.

So how, exactly, is a spirit breaking its own hold? Its under no obligation to do such a thing, and the rules don't force it to, either.


That being said, I would have to say a Finishing Move would have to be a regular melee attack. This issue has come up in discussion with my group before, regarding Magican Touch Spells - they give free attacks as part of the casting when you do the spell, so what happens when you Multicast? Do you get multiple attacks, or does one target suffer both spells? Can you finishing move into a death touch?
Its a similiar situation.

I see what you mean, but there IS a hold that can be broken - otherwise there would be no test to break free. And the spirit normally 'draws victims into itself' ot 'the terrain it controls'. In the first case, of course physical contact is involved. It even says 'the critter engulfs the victim in it's grasp' in the power description. If the spirit walks away from the character, how is he still engulfed if engulf draws him inside the spirit? How does the spirit perform a melee attack on something inside itself, if the attack isn't an engulf? Hence, it would require breaking the engulf to do the Finishing Move.

Now, if the attack involves engulfing the target in the terrain it's a bit more complicated. A Finishing Move then would be difficult, since the first attack isn't really a melee attack at all - it just works as one. Even if it is viable, a follow-up attack on the engulf would only be possible if the victim is engulfed in a substance that the spirit can attack through or over. A terrain engulf is more likely to not have to be broken for the Finishing Move to take effect - IF the spirit is within melee range to begin with.



The Finishing Move itself would have to be a melee attack, so no spell on that I'd say.

What you are doing is confusing descriptive flavor text with actual rules. The two do NOT have anything to do with each other. The fact is engulf is not actaully capable of moving a target around(like if it were inside them).
What ACTUALLY happens is engulf is kind of like a mages touch attack: Touch target. Effect takes place. Effect is sustained until its dropped or broken.

Your arguement about how the power looks kind of falls apart when you consider the engulf variants. The visible appearance of the power (vines coming out of the ground, a fire elemental lighting someone on fire). The target isn't REQUIRED to be physically inside a spirit, and the powers still work even if there is no terrain around(if people were, say, flying). What you're describing isn't a requirement of the power, but a general idea of how it look - and its ignoring the fact that each spirit type has their own version of Engulf which looks different. Just because the power says it looks like X, doesn't mean it invalidates all the other rules for Critter Powers. Or its own power.

Basically stop making a big deal that a spirit can give some a BIG FIREY BEARHUG, and then LEAVE THEM BEHIND TO BURN. Or that a water spirit can make someone drown, and then leave some water behind so they CONTINUE drowning. Or that a Great Form plant spirit(engulf becomes LOS:Area) can just LOOK at a bunch of enemies, and summon vines and plans from NOWHERE to hurt them.

Here.


So yeah. A spirit can Engulf someone, and then punch them with finishing move. And then punch them again. And again, until they run out of actions. Or dance and taunt them, or any other action they choose - unlike a metahuman holding a target up to punch them with the other hand, a spirit using engulf doesn't need to use their hand and there is no 'hold' to speak of. (You could, i suppose, convince the spirit to drop the Sustaining and let you go, but if you've pissed them off enough to make them attack you, well, its going to be rather difficult)

Finishing Move is a Martial Arts manouvre, and is only used for melee combat using martial arts. Engulf is a power that is treated as a melee attack, but it is not a martial art and therefore does not jive with Martial Arts manouvres. End of.

I think that is cool, so i would allow it - but the Mage in my group has no (negative) Touch spells and a DP of 1 for unarmed attacks.

The opposite is true, actaully. Martial arts isn't compatable with only martial arts: It works with adept powers, touch spells, guns(occasionally), and a host of other things. There is even a clause that says maneuvers can be used with any other combat options unless otherwise noted.

Becuase Engulf is treated as a melee attack, you can finishing move if you land an engulf, but engulf isn't exactly a melee attack itself, so you can't follow up with a second one.