I have been reading alot of my Rifts book lately and I was thinking that the Juicer concept would be an interesting fit to the dystopic nature of SR. Especially the angle of "How far will soneone go?" in order to measure up. I just am not sure how to pull it off rules-wise. This is where DSF hopefully comes in. I was wondering what ideas y'all had on the subject?

For those not in the know, Juicers are characters who eschew cyber-augmentation in favor of chemical augmentation. The chemicals they use to supercharge themselves will kill them in 5-8 years. During that time, however, they enjoy myriad benefits such as enhanced speed, strength, reaction time, agility and so on.

Yeah, I can see the concept being possible. There are a lot of combat drugs out there, as well as genetic infusions (Sideways is nice and lasts two weeks), and they all of that chance for things to deteriorate the PC and shorten his lifespan.

The topic has come up before. The big question to ask yourself is, do you want the mechanics of a juicer (chemical augmentation), or the feel of a juicer (someone who is faster, stronger, etc. but also suffering from the strain, and unlikely to last over the long term).

For the former, autoinjectors with combat drugs, genetic infusions, nanites, and possibly some bioware such as symbiotes or an adrenal pump. The trouble is, you won't really kick as much ass as an optimized street samurai, who will be jacked up to his augmented limit all the time, with no worries about crashing later.

For the latter, get 'ware that can mess you up or stress your body (such as move-by-wire, a permanent genetic infusion if your GM will let you have it, synthcardium, suprathyroid gland), with a lot of it second-hand, and with some of the negative augmentation qualities that you can take (cyberpsychosis, weak immune system, etc.).

We worked on something like this using Genetic Infusions and Bioware, especially the Chemical Glands that can constantly maintain chemicals in the bloodstream. Combined with Negative qualities, and the character was not all that bad. Still not as powerful as the Fully Augmented street sam, but he was definitely interesting.

Someone can slip Guerilla T some K-10. He'd get addicted to that kind of rush for sure. Hell, he might even survive a few doses until his heart explodes or he goes bonkers.

I know I've seen a terrifying chem-samurai build floating around the dumpshock irc a while ago. I think Stahlseele made it, though my memory may be faulty.

Such a thing is definitely possible using a combination of Chemical Glands, k-10, woad, sideways, genetic heritage, etc.

Yeah, there are tons of interesting drugs, infusions, nanites and compounds to use and abuse, so the concept is quite viable. The trick is to stay away from the really nasty stuff, since that'll burn you out a lot quicker than 5 years if you use it regularily.

The one 'bonus' to a juicer-type character is that they can adapt their 'enhancements' to fit the situation.

The drawbacks are the addictions, frequent crashes, long-term drug effects, essence loss from burn-out, and the life of a user.

It fits SR quite well, though - especially if you're playing a more low-level, street-type game.

We've only had one character like this in our many years of shadowrun though - but there's been several who have supplemented their augmentations or magic with drugs.


Overdrive, Snuff, Ripper, Oxygnetated Fluorocarbons, NoPaint, Guts, G3, Betel, Betameth, Psyche, Novacoke, Long Haul, Jazz, Cram, and Tempo (while supplies last...), are all useful drugs.

Kamikaze and/or Nitro for those 'special' situations (stay away from K-10 though, unless you take Borrowed Time on your character and don't mind losing him or her quickly).

Stock up on Stim Patches, Trauma Patches and possibly a few Antidote Patches.

For Nanites: Altskin, Oxyrush, Nanosymbiotes, and possibly Nanotattoos.

Genetic Infusions: Braveheart, Endure, and Sideways are quite useful - if somewhat unreliable.

For the wealthy, Enhanced Protein Exchanges can be an option, and possibly Symbionts. Keeping to the 'theme', an Adrenal Pump fits quite well.

Don't think we have not thought about that one... Of course, Dharkhoni does not want to be anywhere near him when GT doses himself with that crap. I like my ops clean... and K-10 has the potential to be really, really messy.

Natural Immunity is a fantastic quality......if you balance your body stat with the duration stat around a specific drug.

Nanites and such don't seem very juicy, though there's indeed a bit of crossover between 'a drug' and 'a treatment' in SR4.

Autoinjectors ('cybergland') really cover the useful (=exploitative) chem gland functions, unless your GM is silly enough to let you get away with that.

The thing that always gets me is, what can this do that a normal (=augmented mundane) character can't?

Not much, but that's not likely to be the point. A person going this route does so because they want to pursue a different route, not because you are trying to munchkinpowergamemoarpowah your character.

I dig that, but there are only a handful of character explanations for that player choice, that's all. Not none, but few. It's hard to explain that your guy is philosophically opposed to 'ware, but drugs are totally fine. Maybe Mr. Sensitive System, assuming that his system is somehow only sensitive to 'ware (RAW, but kinda wonky fluff). It's a lot of weird for the sake of weird, not very satisfying.

A lot of people have been posting here about power specifically, and also about 'ware, for this path supposedly not about power or 'ware.

"The rush of the juice is like nothing else on this world. Your wires and metal can't hope to hit this high. You go through all that surgery to be the biggest mofo on the planet, and you spend weeks or months in recovery for it, then bitch when your bones get cold. Me? I juice up and kick ass, and I LOVE IT. You're nothing, metal man."

That's the philosophy I imagine.

Sure, and no doubt it's fine in Rifts? But in SR4, your metal and wires *can* hit that high, and are plenty compatible with the drugs. So you need a relatively contrived and specialized cover story.

Mechanically?
Chemical glands have the capability to offer 3/4 passes for 0.3 essence or so.

If you're willing to be a drug addict, that is.

The "purists", Those who are flesh and blood who love being able to compete with chrome and oil. The ones that need that push to deaden the nerves and to remove the fear. The adrenaline (or what have you) junkies who don't feel like waiting for the situation to push them into redline and like making the call themselves.

Only if, as I said, you're exploiting, Udoshi. Everyone thought, 'hey, a gland with Jazz', but that doesn't make it okay. But again, that's part of the superset of 'normal augmented character'; it's not like they can't do that. You'd have to seriously go out of your way (which is my point) to call yourself a 'drug-based person', especially IC.

I think I just addressed that, Christian. The whole thread is people suggesting chrome and oil (and artificial flesh, I guess), and none of the drug options are juicer-special in any way.

If we're just talking about someone who chooses to use pistols to the exclusion of any other weapon, that's fine… except some people are suggesting machine pistols, bayonets, and things like SnS or DMSO-whatever rounds. It seems like a silly distinction, especially if you're actually violating it left and right.

I'm fine with arbitrary distinctions, and with special concepts, and so on. I understand and dig the juicer aesthetic. I'm just saying that, baseline rules, it's hard (not impossible) to fit this one into the world. I suggested a couple of the classic ways earlier, and there are indeed others, but they're pretty unreasonable, and they don't fit with what many people suggested in the thread. This is particularly true of the super-deluxe builds; the street ganger with Cram fits the world great… except he hardly counts as 'The Juicer' then.

For me, in SR, I feel like the real question is 'should this character be a performance drug addict?', regardless of the character. It's not 'juicer, or something else'. It's whatever normal baseline you have (usually moderate 'ware), and then drugs on top.

There are a lot of points I agree with, Yer. But it does come down to flavor really. Some people might see drugs as OK and 'ware as not. I'm not saying that it is everyone, or even most. Especially those who place a large stack in the Essence=Soul argument. Chopping parts out of your soul to get amped instead of tweaking out. Or just an odd preference of what is right and wrong. Like those people who will do rails of coke but can't stand meth addicts.

It goes back to what I said - flavor vs. mechanics. The latter are not really set up for it, either rules-wise or setting-wise. Sure, you can have some nanites, genetic infusions, and auto-injectors, but instead of this awesome killing machine in overdrive, you will be a second-rate sammie, who can approach the level of an augmented metahuman briefly, then crash.

The way Shadowrun is set up, bioware, geneware, and nanotech are cutting edge, while cyberware is the cheaper old tech (although there are still things it can do that the other things can't). Drugs are the bottom of the barrel - they are poppers that gangers or corporate security grunts who can't afford even basic wired reflexes take, so that the street samurai doesn't outclass them quite as badly. Yes, there are more advanced options you can take drug-wise, but it gets increasingly contrived; why do this when augmentations of an equivalent expense will do the same thing, far better.

If you want the flavor, instead, then pick 'ware that gives high boosts but has tangible downsides, and add some augmentation-related negative qualities to the mix, along with some mental disadvantages. Someone with used move-by-wire, a suprathyroid gland and symbionts, a permanent genetic infusion, temporal lobe epilepsy, weak immune system, and cyber-psychosis would be close to a juicer (going by what I have heard - I don't have the RIFTS game). Wired and twitchy, mentally unstable, binge eating, suffering insomnia and possibly needing some Slab just to get a good night's sleep, and definitely not someone who will survive the long haul. Pink mohawk to be sure, but that seems to describe juicers.

Well there would be one reason, why a dedicated juicer would avoid other ware, and that would be Essence Loss due to addiction. If you go by ~1 Essence per year, you even get the average lifespan of a Rifts Juicer.

To try and stay as close to the original as possible, without homebrewing, the SR Juicer would have an implanted biomonitor (actually 2, one for backup) and Nanitehive as the only required implants. The drugs will come from a Drugharness - basically a savior nanite medkit and autoinjector with a 6-12 month drug supply strapped to the chest.

The ingame reason to do it would be simple - addiction. The user could get hooked by powerballing streetdrugs or due to drug-use during military service or corp security/police emergencies (Armor-integrated autoinjector anyone). The setup described above would be a way to stay alife as long as possible without quitting. Once the system was established, some corps/militaries/syndicates might adopt it in vavour of ware that is harder to strap (and reuse) after service.

Now the big thing is to pick drugs/nanites/infusions, that will reflect the Rifts Juicers abilities. If you are not adverse to homebrewing, you can just put together a set of bonuses similar to other wares and say it´s drug based (balance with the cost/availability of drug supplies).

If you are looking to replicate the powerlevel of a regular Juicer with a homebrew my suggestion would be (generously translated and considering that ware and IP bonuses are more available and potent in SR, you might want to subtract one from everything):

all Physical Attributes +3, +3 IP, Ini +3, Surprise Tests and Dodge +3 (to be compleatly in theme, you shouls also aply this bonus when not using full dodge), Healing/Drug/Pathogen Resistance +3, Pain Resistance 10, hard to kill 3, only 3 h sleep per day/up to 5 days without sleep, composure tests and resistance to fear/intimidation/mindcontrol +2, Perception +2

EDIT: ab bonus to Fatigue rolls would also make sense, and if you want to go that far, increased running speed, jumping distance and lifting capacity, as well.

Going 'by the book' those stats are tough to replicate, but you'd need something like this:

Internal biomonitors hooked up to Autoinjectors and an internal medkit using Saviour nanites, and a hive with Nanosymbiotes, and an external port that allows for carried drug-containers.


Fill with drugs/treatments as follows:


While all the drugs are in effect, the character's stats should be something like (assuming everything stacks, but there isn't any mention of it not stacking, so...):

Body +0 (+4 for resisting Fatigue)
Agility +3
Reaction +6 (+8 for defense-tests)
Strength +3
Charisma +2
Intuition +0 (+3 for Perception tests)
Logic -1
Willpower +2

INIT +6
IP +2

Armor 0/2 (combine with Altskin Armor for an armor rating of 3/3)
High Pain Tolerance 5
+1 to all combat tests against opponents after their first attack against the Juicer
+2 to all Athletics Group tests

The full effects last something like a few minutes, with the majority lasting upwards of an hour.

Stim Patches in conjunction with Saviour medkit, Nanosymbiotes, inhibitor drugs, and additional applications of drugs etc, should keep the user from crashing totally when 'beneficial' effects run out and negative effects kick in. A Trauma Damper would be a seriously wise investment to help recovery from the frequent crashing.

Of course, odds are the character will die from the infusion-drug-cocktail fairly quickly...but with luck (?) he or she may survive a few years...

Nice! I've never tried to emulate the juicer for actual use, but I have used the concept as a plot device for a couple of runs where the group was first hired to steal the formulas and dosage data for the drugs to be used in such a device. A few runs later Mr. Johnson came back and hired the team to sabotage the actual harness so that it would fail spectacularly in it's first live demonstration for the brass. A couple of months later a company (other than the one they were infiltrating) released its first generation ChemWarrior line of equipment for use in Desert Wars. "All the benefit of expensive internal ware, at half the cost!" It fell out of favor a couple of years later as the kinks could not be worked out.

I don't even wanna see the tests the GM calls for when you speedball two dozen things. On the plus side, only like half of those are even 'drugs'; why would nanoware count?

No strictly scientific reason, but this IS Shadowrun, after all. Perhaps nanohive and supercharged gene-therapeutic nanites don't mix as well as expected when you combine brands in the none-too-safe confines of a black clinic, or having a lot of nanites skip through your system along with enough chems to kill a horse may clog an artery? Who really knows? This kind of high-risks fuckery is a part of SR augmentation I really enjoy.

Oh, no. I meant, 'why would nanoware count as juicy?'. It goes back to the stuff about the concept, that's all. Neocortical nanites amp up your nerves in a basically permanent way (certainly, in a way more like 'ware than drugs), so you might as well get Wires if you're okay with 'passive' nanites.

How exactly, there are no natural substances that i know of that give +2/+3 or even +1 IP.

I included them because it kinda fits thematically. The nanostuff generally doesn't need procedures that are as invasive as cybersurgery, and if all you do is inject it anyway, it doesn't matter much if it's a drug or tiny robots.

The geneware is more of a grey-area, though - mainly in there because of the risk-reward of infusions have the same flavor as drugs, and would likely appeal to the same crowd.

The only thing that's really invasive is the biomonitors, nanite hive, built-in medkit and autoinjectors, but that should be able to fit in an external harness mostly, as long as it hooks up to the users blood stream in some way. Much of the drug application can be done transdermally though.

Oh, I meant that the amps aren't very temporary or risky. The infusions kinda are, though on a weird long term.

Then again, if you can inject something that gives benefits but no drawbacks...

I picked that one because it's one of the few things that'll add to Intuition skills, and without it the Braveheart Infusion would have reduced that bonus to Perception tests and Street knowledge skills.

Damn double-posts...

Thanks for the input guys, I have been getting alot of thought-food from it. I have decided to go for a hybrid-style character who uses both drugs and dangerous augmentations. I am trying to keep the feel of the Juicer, because, lets face it, SR isn't all that great for purely chemically enhanced characters. I figure I will have the basic build done today or tomorrow and I will post it in case anybody is curious.

Thanks again, guys. I can always trust y'all to have interesting and quality feedback and ideas.

I finished with the build. I will post it later today. I went with alot more cyber and less chem than I thought I was going to, but I compensated by taking the more dangerous/questionable ware. When all the boosts are on he's looking at body 6, agility 8, reaction 8, strength 7 and 4 passes. That's not too shabby, I think. Anyways I gotta go decompress from the caffiene high building this character took. Bye.

Here is the Juicer build I came up with. Sorry I didn't post it when I said I would, Skyrim got in the way.

Point Breakdown
Metatype: 0
Attributes: 200 +20
Qualities: -15
Skills: 130
Contacts: 13
Money: 49
Total: 397

Skyrim can do that

I like the build.

I personally might have taken an additional drug or two for some extra edge, but looking over the list I can't really find one that 'fits'. Possibly 'Guts', though it's a bit on the expensive side at 100:nuyen: a pop.

Shifters make great juicers.

They've got massive natural maximums, are awakened so augs are a pain, and regenerate the damage done by the combat chemical so there's no downswing unless the drug specifies a duration for the detrimental effect (many do.)

Now you've gone and given me a terrible idea...

You and me both

Drake adept with juicer harness... even worse than shifters with one

A drake does not regenerate the damage done by a combat drug - but a shapeshifter or an HMHVV1-Infected would regenerate. I had a Surged Adept Juicer Dzoo-No-Qua Formori NPC, who speedballed nitro, kamikaze, jazz, cram, betameth and snuff.

Wow, that's a pretty unlikely character. Back in game-reality, you probably *would* expect some shifters to get involved with drugs. They have a tough life, and can't get cyber; unlike PCs, they can't compensate by 'deciding' to be a mage or adept, right? It's a natural enough result. They'd eventually start losing Essence, but maybe they don't care too much.

Well, i wanted an enemy that lives more than 2 rounds - it ended up with 27 dice for regenerating and a shitload of dice for counterspelling ... in the end, he got about 2-3 net damage per round, but the combat took so fucking long and our close combat adept blocked each attack of him that we decided to fast forward it