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ChewyGranola
Looking for some clarification here. So, take me for example. I am a regular guy that sells appliances for Sears. Now lets assume, for the discussion, that Sears Holdings is an extraterritorial corporation (HAHA, I know). As an employee, am I automatically a corporate "citizen"? What exactly does said citizenship entail? Can I still be a US citizen?

Now, I get that the management of a megacorp and all the higher-ups would be citizens, but what about the regular folks that work for the company? What if I world for a subsidiary that is not extraterritorial? Are most countries ok with dual citizenship (I would imagine so, since they would be able to still tax you). The way I read some of the books makes it seem like if you work for a corp, you automatically live on their property, buy from their stores, all that. I can see this working in a failed state or a remote area, but in a big city like Seattle in a democratic, free society like the UCAS this does not seem to be possible (by this I mean the company town model). If this was true, cities would essentially be divided into corporate enclaves, with no need for any kind of city government at all. The concept of the "city" as we know it does not seem to work with this, at least in my mind.

So, does canon have an answer? Or does anyone on the board have some thoughts on this?
Paul
I do not believe Canon directly addresses this-however it is written in some books that at least some people receive corporate citizenship at birth-which implies that some people receive corporate citizenship on the basis of employment. I'd imagine that there would be a graduated system-providing limited citizenship to new employees, and perhaps permanent citizenship as they prove their loyalty?
Moirdryd
There are cannon answers scattered throughout various sources.

Dual citizenship is common in the UCAS, NAN, Japan ect. Corporate Citizenship applies to any Corporate employee of a MegaCorp or wholly owned subsidiary of that MegaCorp, these citizens will be offered good rates of living in a corporation owned enclave, estate, habtower or arcology. The will be paid in Corporate Script (in part or in full) and /or be given Loyal Citizen Rates within Corporation owned shops and recreational facilities. Usually they will also receive free of subscription any Corporation owned Trident Channels and be given discounted rates for any PPV items ect.

Living within an Enclave, Arcology ect increases the likelihood of CorpScript, automatically getting all the CorpCannels and Movies Free, getting provided for (or deduction low rate calculated) utilities ect. Living within an Enclave typically means you will be a Corporate Citizen 100% and there are work and career related bennies for that too.

Living outside of the Enclave or Arcology means Nuyen more often and more in the way of Loyalty Discounts instead of 'freebies'. Also it means Dual Citizenship is most likely as you live in (Seattle) but work for (Saeder-Krupp), however this also often restricts work and career benefits.

Those who work for companies owned by multiple megacorps or who are truly independent will typically have a National Citizenship.

And yes, some cities ARE divided into Corporate Enclaves. Seattle itself boasts several, two big ones in DownTown alone leap to mind Renraku Arcology and the Aztechnologies Pyramid, but there are others throughout the city (renton and bellvue both have a few off the top of my head). Then look at Denver, that's chopped up really precise with border crossings and everything.

Hope this helps?
Moirdryd
Should also add that being born and living in the enclave ect also means auto Corp citizenship, complete with Corp schooling, career paths, further education options and so on.
ChewyGranola
This is helpful. So essentially as a corporate employee, I get to choose my level of involvement. If I want to live in the corporate-sponsored housing development or arcology or whatever, I can, of not, I don't have to, unless I am a important in some way. And living in said corporate place does not mean I am eating, drinking, thinking, and buying what Renraku (or whoever) wants me to, but they use the pressure of discounts on their stuff to nudge me in their way.

That makes total sense.
3278
A lot of these answers are discussed in Corporate Guide, but a more detailed treatment is available from Corporate Shadowfiles.
Eimi
QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 9 2012, 06:42 PM) *
This is helpful. So essentially as a corporate employee, I get to choose my level of involvement. If I want to live in the corporate-sponsored housing development or arcology or whatever, I can, of not, I don't have to, unless I am a important in some way. And living in said corporate place does not mean I am eating, drinking, thinking, and buying what Renraku (or whoever) wants me to, but they use the pressure of discounts on their stuff to nudge me in their way.

That makes total sense.


To be fair, they probably exert a considerable degree of pressure for you to live in corp housing and live the corp lifestyle.

Like, say, hinting that promotions and other advancement is less likely if you don't, that you might have trouble with security clearance issues because they can't guarantee your reliability, that you might not be assigned to certain projects or duties you might have been hoping for...

Not even touching more heavy-handed stuff.
Snow_Fox
It's not just that you get bene's for being a corp citizen you are tied to the corp-your home, your friends, your social existance is tied to the corp. The corp has control over your media outlets and can control your opinions. Ever hear theterm 'sold my soul to the company store" same thing. You don't want to look outside the corp and being paid in corp script you can't really translate to something else you truly don't want to leave or you're starting from square one all over again.
ChewyGranola
So when the Facts at a Glance sheet for a country or city or whatever lists percentage of corporate citizens, I would assume that means percent that are dual citizens, since corporate exclusive citizens are likely not counted. Seems like most countries are hovering around the 30% mark, which is not really as many as I would have thought.
Bodak
QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 10 2012, 10:51 AM) *
I can see this working in a failed state or a remote area, but in a big city like Seattle in a democratic, free society
This bit made me laugh.
Pepsi Jedi
It goes into this in corp guide and attitude as well. Being a Corp citizen is much like being a citizen of any nation. You are of that corp. Much like we have Patriotisim for the US. Members of a corp often have the same for the corp.

Different corps have differnet 'feels' and different ways. They very much have different cultures. Japancorps have more of that. Corps like Lone star are very different. Lone Star is more of an old 'Texas good ol boy" type thing. Very macho, very oriented to males, ect ect ect.

Ares is almost militant in its corp.

They even have their own fashions (( and their own fashion lines!))

Also remember that many people with corperate citizen ship might be called "Wage slaves" byy us.. but for themselves they love thheir corp. The corp feeds them, pays them, houses them, gives them money, teaches their kids, provides for their medical, provides for their entertainment, protects them from the scary meta critters out there. (( Really.. flip through Paranormal guide to north america. Some of those things are horrific)).

Corp life isn't like big brother.. it's like Mom and dad.

You live in the corp ideal. You tell the corp jokes, you wear the corp clothes. Not because you have to.. but because that's what all your peers do! That's what's expected for raises. That's how you 'fit in'. Corps will even help you find mates and a few even have corp brothals to help those with out spouces. (( Yep.. Corp sanctioned whore houses... gotta love it))

More over, MOST people that ARE corp citizens don't see it as a bad thing. They see it as something they've strived for and finally acheived. Once you're in. You've "made it" they have PRIDE in their corp.

They're "An Ares Man!" or "An Evo Chick" and you know what? FRAK YOU if you're not! If you're an Ares corp citizen you see yourself better than an Aztechnology corp citizen... becaus... everyone knows YOUR corp is better than THAT Corp. Ect ect ect.


Quite frankly... in the world of Shadowrun.. if you're NOT a shadowrunner... being a corp citizen is a DAMN good deal and something to strive for.

As for how you get in.... You can work for a corp but not have citizenship. Citizenship is a boon. A bonus. An indication that you're needed by the corp and they want you. Until then you "WORK FOR" a corp.. .but you're not a citizen.... once you've achieved citizenship you get all those boons I listed above... Becoming a corp citizen is a bit more than being hired on. You have to have something in you.. or that you cann do... that makes you WORTH... the money... for the boons listed above (( housing, security, entertainment, healthcare, child care, schools, whorehouses ect)) if you're not WORTH that much.. You work FOR, but are not a member OF the corp.

Yes, some are born into it, but those are the lucky ones. And they start going to Corp schools (( which not too surprisingly teach you how your corp is the best)) and those schools will gauge your ability and how best you can help the corp.. and guess what? You get into classes that guide you there. If you're a smart orc that's strong and good athlete, you get steared towards corp security. If you're a geeky lil dweeb who lives on the Matrix, you get steared for computer classes and might become a corp decker. Ect ect ect.
ChewyGranola
QUOTE (Bodak @ Jan 10 2012, 12:06 AM) *
This bit made me laugh.


Hey man for all its failings, which are massive, the UCAS is at least a free country much in the same way the US is, and is still a democracy, though a fractured and struggling one.
Ascalaphus
The UCAS is kind of like the USA with all the dark bits made bigger. "Free" and "Democratic", not Free and Democratic.

One of the more subtle things in which SR diverged from the real world long ago: while in the real world the "job for life" has become less common, in SR it's actually the standard, especially among Japanacorps.

However, also look at the difference between ideal and practice: the corps want their citizens to be completely devoted to the corporate culture, but corporate culture is just more sterile, less vibrant than "wild" culture, which is why even corporate drones sneak out in the weekend to go clubbing in bad neighborhoods. Corporations don't like this, because "anything may happen" to those employees, so they try to provide controlled, safe alternatives in-house (like the corp brothel), but they can't stop it happening. People crave the thrill of the forbidden.

I think there aren't so many formal barriers between citizens of differing "quasi-sovereign entities", but more informal ones. Aztech citizens can go shopping at the Renraku mall, but it might end up as a note (never openly discussed with you) in your performance review.

Also, even though the AAA corps do a lot of things, none of them makes everything. AAs even less. And not all of them own their own shopping malls; there's probably a see-saw between "product chain integration" and "lean and mean", so at any point some companies prefer to send their citizens shopping at another corp's mart because it's just cheaper not to deal with all that themselves.
Pepsi Jedi
They do, do their best to minimize that though. Corp script is one way of doing so. YOUR Corps' script will buy you more in YOUR Corp's stores (( Think a 5 to 10% boost in your corp dollar)) and while you very much can convert it to other corp script... they give you 'unfavorable rates'

YOUR Corp to Newyen -5 to 10% of your total.. No biggie because your corp scrip was giving you that bonous to start.
YOUR Corp (Lets say Ares) To some other corp script... (Lets say Aztechnology) And you lose 25% in the conversion. You can do it, they'll happily do it. And they'll keep the 25% for them-self.

Many of you will go 'Ok. well I'll go from mine to Newyen to Aztech.. but you don't 'make up the difference"

Your corp (Ares) To Newyen -5 to 10%. Newyen to Aztechnology. ANOTHER -5 to 10%... but BOTH times you pay a fee for the conversion so... you end up at about the same place. And.. it's a hassle.

Usually you don't get paid 100% in Corp script though. The corps know you are going to 'Sneak out and go clubbing' so that's all factored in. You might get 60%corp script 40 newyen. Or 80/20.

All in all it's not that big a deal... but.. it's another of 100 small deals that helps to ensure thhat if you're going out for a gallon of milk.... and you can get it for $2 at the corp store.. or $3 at another store... you end up going to the corp store.... and while you're thhere you pick up a magazine, a candy bar and some bread.... and the corp smiles and takes their script and you go home happy.
Paul
It's Nuyen, and I'm not sure I buy into the current US being a "Free" society, let alone the dystopic future. That said i agree that Corporations definitely manipulate exchange rates, and other factors in the currency market to their favor. I also would think that the lines between various Mega-corporations and various Nation States isn't always as blurred as perhaps some posters would imagine.
Bodak
QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 10 2012, 04:17 PM) *
the UCAS is at least a free country much in the same way the US is, and is still a democracy, though a fractured and struggling one.
This is just the kind of perception that made me laugh the first time. It's almost like there's an Extended Area ritual illusion being sustained by some draco-pres. Everyone caught in the area of effect thinks they're in a free and democratic, fair and just, saviour of the world, first world nation, superpower at the top of the economic food-chain which doesn't antagonise, start wars, pillage already broken foreign nations for weapons of mass disappearance, torture detainees or grant asylum to professional torturers guilty of crimes against humanity. They mostly just export cinematic entertainment. People who voted for the ruling monarch or his descendent automatically forfeit four dice on their resistance test to see through the illusion.

Everyone on the outside of the area of effect and those who resist the glamour... see things differently.

As readers of the source books, we have the benefit of the external perspective, seeing how deceptive, exploitative and mercenary these factions are. They deliberately fabricate in political negotiations and to their own people alike, carelessly sacrificing the lives of wage-slaves (not to mention what the Azzies sacrifice) while spoon-feeding them AR and prozium. Any time some truthful news leaks through their smokescreen, the spindoctors get to work. Any time it looks like their incompetence is dragging on into its second decade, they can spoof an assassination and dispose of the (supposed) body before any objective parties can verify evidence and claims. Meanwhile the happy little worker bees just keep on droning, "We're in a democratic-free country! Happiness is mandatory! The controller is your friend!"

This external perspective is a sweet, sweet view and it makes me chuckle. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy books, RPGs, computer games and films in which the story depicts such poor deluded souls: regarding access to truth they live as impoverished paupers but think they're kings. Much as Cypher comes to realise after being a runner / troubleshooter for so long that the grass on the other side of the corp citizenship fence has begun looking greener again, "After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."
Moirdryd
NERPS! For him, NERPS! for her, NERPS! for them, NERPS! for you!

NERPS on your trideo,
NERPS! in you breakfast
Moirdryd
NERPS! For him, NERPS! for her, NERPS! for them, NERPS! for you!

NERPS on your trideo,
NERPS! in you breakfast
ChewyGranola
QUOTE (Bodak @ Jan 10 2012, 07:34 PM) *
This is just the kind of perception that made me laugh the first time. It's almost like there's an Extended Area ritual illusion being sustained by some draco-pres. Everyone caught in the area of effect thinks they're in a free and democratic, fair and just, saviour of the world, first world nation, superpower at the top of the economic food-chain which doesn't antagonise, start wars, pillage already broken foreign nations for weapons of mass disappearance, torture detainees or grant asylum to professional torturers guilty of crimes against humanity. They mostly just export cinematic entertainment. People who voted for the ruling monarch or his descendent automatically forfeit four dice on their resistance test to see through the illusion.

Everyone on the outside of the area of effect and those who resist the glamour... see things differently.

As readers of the source books, we have the benefit of the external perspective, seeing how deceptive, exploitative and mercenary these factions are. They deliberately fabricate in political negotiations and to their own people alike, carelessly sacrificing the lives of wage-slaves (not to mention what the Azzies sacrifice) while spoon-feeding them AR and prozium. Any time some truthful news leaks through their smokescreen, the spindoctors get to work. Any time it looks like their incompetence is dragging on into its second decade, they can spoof an assassination and dispose of the (supposed) body before any objective parties can verify evidence and claims. Meanwhile the happy little worker bees just keep on droning, "We're in a democratic-free country! Happiness is mandatory! The controller is your friend!"

This external perspective is a sweet, sweet view and it makes me chuckle. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy books, RPGs, computer games and films in which the story depicts such poor deluded souls: regarding access to truth they live as impoverished paupers but think they're kings. Much as Cypher comes to realise after being a runner / troubleshooter for so long that the grass on the other side of the corp citizenship fence has begun looking greener again, "After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."


I never ever said anything about the US being perfect in any way shape or form, or the UCAS for that matter. The US is chock-full of problems, just every other place in the world. In a lot of ways, the US is awesome, and in just as many ways, it is not. We are just a country full of people that have has a lucky/skilled history that has placed us on top of the food chain for the time being. My definitions of "free" and "democratic" mean that people can speak their minds when things are going down that they don't like, and that the people have the power to get rid of government officials that are not doing what they want them to, even if they choose not to exercise that power. The UCAS, in my view, is like the 2012 US plus seventy years of chaos, war, plague, and government gridlock. Could it work as a real free democracy? Sure, the Constitution makes that possible. Does it? No way, because the forces of modern life have conspired, intentionally and unintentionally, to distract the people from things other than info-tainment and their day to day lives. It's our country, worse off. It still has potential, however.

I do wish we had a US Sourcebook that exposed everything in it, however.
Bodak
QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 11 2012, 12:35 PM) *
My definitions of "free" and "democratic" mean that people can speak their minds when things are going down that they don't like, and that the people have the power to get rid of government officials that are not doing what they want them to,
They can only do that if they are informed. Knowledge is power. It's only good strategy therefore to deprive the people of knowledge. Governments should be afraid of their people but they don't need to be if their people are deluded. If today is anything to go by, in the 2070s the truth will be available but it will be so swamped by data and misinformation and distraction and so steeped in conspiracy theories that anyone who has been socially conditioned to be arrogant and patriotic will immediately dismiss and even deride facts that fly in the face of their opinions. This keeps them loyal to the corrupt mega, which keeps the mega in business. Horribly horribly in debt, to be sure, but in business.

QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 11 2012, 12:35 PM) *
I do wish we had a US Sourcebook that exposed everything in it, however.
Well Sweden and Visa and Mastercard and Julia Gillard and plenty of other megacorps and CEOs are desperately trying to silence the freelancer who started to publish that sourcebook. Ostensibly because it unmasks the aliases of traitors, potentially putting them in danger. Strange - they've never worried about the killboard before.
ChewyGranola
QUOTE (Bodak @ Jan 10 2012, 10:52 PM) *
They can only do that if they are informed. Knowledge is power. It's only good strategy therefore to deprive the people of knowledge. Governments should be afraid of their people but they don't need to be if their people are deluded. If today is anything to go by, in the 2070s the truth will be available but it will be so swamped by data and misinformation and distraction and so steeped in conspiracy theories that anyone who has been socially conditioned to be arrogant and patriotic will immediately dismiss and even deride facts that fly in the face of their opinions. This keeps them loyal to the corrupt mega, which keeps the mega in business. Horribly horribly in debt, to be sure, but in business.



I agree totally with the above. 24-hour news=no one really knowing what's important without a bunch of research. If the mating habits of various species of celebrity are just as important as, say, Iran blockading the Straight of Hormuz and the US' response, well, that's an epic journalism fail.
Bodak
... but having second-thoughts about discovering what other attrocities your taxes are endorsing?

Did you hear that? Are you sure this line is clean? I better go.
ChewyGranola
QUOTE (Bodak @ Jan 11 2012, 12:57 AM) *
... but having second-thoughts about discovering what other attrocities your taxes are endorsing?

Did you hear that? Are you sure this line is clean? I better go.



OK man, I don't need you to "enlighten" me or to help me "discover" things about my own government. I am aware of what is going on and unhappy with a lot of it. I think renditions are illegal and immoral, I hate how invasions of other countries can be done under false pretenses. I am also, however, patriotic and just can't help it, since no country is perfect.

Honestly, I am not even sure how we got on the topic of real life politics and events. That's not what I come here for.

If any of the above is wrong or offensive, please ignore it. I hate political discussions.
Ascalaphus
The UCAS is basically what you get when people's fears about government subversion by corporations were true. Hence a Free Democracy©.
Paul
QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 11 2012, 09:43 AM) *
Honestly, I am not even sure how we got on the topic of real life politics and events. That's not what I come here for.


A lot of how we each see the dystopic future of Shadowrun is colored by how we perceive events, including political events today. The good news if in your game, at your table the UCAS is the good guys then that's cool. No one is going to show up and change how you run that. Other people want something different. I think the key on a forum like this sin't to get bogged down on the stuff we don't like but to glean the useful and stuff we do like from the chaff.
Wakshaani
And there we see why we don't go into real world politics or religion. smile.gif

As for corporate citizenship, it's certainly a perk. It's one thing to gte a JOB, but quite anothe rto be a CITIZEN. It's a bonus that you earn after years of service. (5? 10? 25? Not sure, but 10 sounds good.) It can also be handed out as a sweetener, or as a reward for going above and beyond the call of duty. Some countries allow for dual-citizenship, but others are single-cit only... at those times, you have to make a choice.

Citizenship is likely passed to kids, thus encouraging you to work hard to give your kids a better future, and it's a status symbol, where corp brats clique it up and ostracise the 'wannabes' whose parents work for the corp, but who "only" have national citizenship, not proper CORP citizenship.

The social benefits inside the corp, especially the Japanese corps, can't be overstated. You even get the "Team player" vibe from the UCAS corps. Being a good loyal soldier goes far in Damien Knight's empire, after all.
ChewyGranola
Wait, wait, wait, I am not saying the UCAS is the good guy in any way. All I said was that it is a free democracy in the technical sense. If I lived in the UCAS I would be agitating for reform, better social care, helping out the SINless, etc. I think the UCAS is just as "free" and "democratic" as the CAS, Quebec, NAN...which is to say, not that much. As far as I'm concerned, all the countries in Shadowrun are run by douchebags, even more so that our countries in real life. Hell, in my SR the UCAS is replaced by the Federated States of America, a corporate style fascist regime where people pay to vote, pay for justice, and is more dystopic than the UCAS (I made the CAS worse too).


I have no idea how the topic got on the current US. All I ever said about the US was that we actually are free and democratic, even though the government has done many many bad things throughout the nation's history, but people are too distracted to take advantage of their freedoms. I think we take our freedoms for granted, and most people don't notice when corporations and the government ignore or step on our rights. I think the Shadowrun universe shows us a possibile future if we allow this to continue.

This topic has gone in a strange direction. If anyone wants, I can throw out my opinions on current events, but I don't think that's appropriate for this part of the forum.
3278
QUOTE (ChewyGranola @ Jan 11 2012, 07:52 PM) *
I have no idea how the topic got on the current US.

Because someone took an offhand comment you made about Shadowrun and decided to be cool and jaded and use it as a route to complain about governments in real life. It's a completely unnecessary tangent, and not really your fault. Don't sweat it.
ChewyGranola
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 11 2012, 03:00 PM) *
Because someone took an offhand comment you made about Shadowrun and decided to be cool and jaded and use it as a route to complain about governments in real life. It's a completely unnecessary tangent, and not really your fault. Don't sweat it.



That's funny, and true. Thanks. I thought all the cool and jaded people were only in the White Wolf forums, where I originally hail from. wobble.gif
Ascalaphus
Note that not all of the benefits of corporate citizenship are for the people... it may also be used to protect a corporation's human resources from the grasping hands of other governments, as in "those are OURS". Which a reason all important people should be corp citizens; it gives the corp much more jurisdiction over them.
Nath
Corporate citizenship shouldn't be confused with loyalty. Just like state citizenship does not equal patriotism.

Corporate citizenship is first and foremost a legal tool for the megacorporation. Nowadays, it can be very complicated if not impossible to travel to Cuba or Iran with an US passport, or to Saudi Arabia, Syria and a bunch of other Arab countries with an Israeli passport (by 2070, UCAS/Sioux relations could be a better example). Corporate citizenship gives the megacorporation free hands on who they send to work abroad, while also protecting them from treason charges upon return.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 11 2012, 07:19 PM) *
The UCAS is basically what you get when people's fears about government subversion by corporations were true. Hence a Free Democracy*.



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