Everybody who is following my posts knows, that i dislike cyberware because i feel uncomfortable with the concept of replacing "good" meat with metal or any other "foreign" materials. But the topic with the mostly cybered combat biker (yeah, the one without bike) made me rethink this opinion. If i go for a full-body-replacement, it is "holistic" again, but in a completely different way. I am a magic-expert, so i would need your help with the build-up of a "sort of" cyborg. The mostly cybered combat biker was nice, but i need to know some things:

are these cyberlimbs concealed or obvious?
what are the problems of such a char. (e.g. metal-scanners)
how can these problems be solved
is the mccb (mostly cybered combat biker) the cutting edge of what is doable from character creation of can it be done better?
what mods should this char. get as future improvements?
which race would be the best for an unsuspicious "Tank" character (no infected, no metasapients, only baseline types please)

This is a powergamer request for help. So feel free to squeeze every drop out of the standard rules. ^^

You can have the limbs in both obvious and concealed variant.
Bulk mod and the maxed out limbs are a nice idea, but bulk mod will make you look more like an ork than a human, and more like a troll than an ork.
Metal-Scanners ARE a Problem. These can not be circumvented without licenses explaining it. On the other hand, if there are ONLY metal scanners that pick up your complete body, you will have it MUCH easier to hide other implants in there. Only problem being the fact that you won't have any ESSENCE left for most anything else . .
Ork is the best there is at what he does. And what he does is ugly. As is he.

Check my sig and look at the Bad Enough Trog for an example of a full-body-replacement character.

1) Obvious
2) You can't get past MAD scanners. Note that while you can't get past cyberware scanners, nobody else with 'ware can either (they are ridiculously good), so that's not a particular drawback.
3) You can't. That's one of the drawbacks; you look like a killer cyborg.
4) It's good, but it is not the ONLY good type of character. Take a look at the other street samurai in my sig for different examples. The end results tend to be:
Full-body replacement makes you very, very tough, but costs you offense (because it eats up all the essence you'd want to spend on other stuff)
Single cyberarm replacement makes you well-balanced
Bioware stat boosting makes you better at skills like Infiltration and able to use two-handed weapons, but not as tough.
5)You're not going to be unsuspicious. If you want to powergame, go with Fomori.

You could get the concealed variants even in SR3, there they cost more.
In SR4, they don't even cost more money than the obvious kind.
The only difference between obvious and concealed aside from looking like the Terminator before and after the TankerTruckExplosion is the Capacity these limbs offer.

Note that you don't have to go so far as looking like The Terminator, of course. But you aren't going to pass as a "normal" human if your limbs are obvious (it's a lot easier with synthetic versions, of course, but even those aren't foolproof; talking mostly about the obvious versions here).

They don't have to be skeletal or non-normal-limb-shaped, and they don't have to be shiny chrome; they'll just be obviously artificial at a glance, even if they're still 'skin-tone' colored rather than chrome (or some other non-natural color). Maybe there's a mix of metal and less obvious polymers, maybe there are obvious (even if sealed) ports or markings. Either way, it isn't really making any effort to not look artificial, even if it is in a 'natural' skintone.

Cyberskulls would be the most obvious and hard to hide 'limb', I would think, as you can keep the others underneath your clothing (including gloves if need be). That, and I'd think that while you can still have all the bits that make up a normal face on the front of your cyberskull, and might even have some soft (polymers soft, not real flesh soft) bits to make it not totally mask-like, it's still going to be somewhat disconcerting at best. Somewhere on either side of the uncanny valley at best, square in the middle of it at worst. You're going to get treated differently than someone that has all four cyberlimbs and a cybertorso, but still has their natural skull/face. You aren't actually mandated into being limited in any way, of course. In theory, the only thing that is required is that it is 'obvious'ly artificial. But you're free to expand on that to say that your expressions are unnatural as well, etc.

There's a lot of range to play with on a heavily cybered up character, is what I'm saying. There's no one-true-look, let alone one-thousand-true-looks.

Actually, i would advise against the skull.
Saves essence, saves money, does not have any advantages, has more disadvantages, can't fit anything usefull into it either . .

Definitely one of those pieces of ware you only get if your concept demands it.

Worth noting, there IS a synthetic cyberskull in the augmentation tables. You don't HAVE to have a terminator face.

Under SR3 Rules, the Cyber-Skull was awesome . .
It reduced Damage from called shots to the head by one damage level . . so from serious to medium for example.

Yes, but it is conspicuously missing in the 20th anniversary core. Whether that was accidental or deliberate (accidental seems odd, as it was there in the most recent pre-20th Catalyst printing) has never actually been answered, that I personally saw, by anyone with the authority to answer said question. It would also make it possibly the only piece of cyberware to actually be retconned from existence in the game's history.

But yes, if the synthetic cyberskull still exists, all those issues I listed are considerably reduced. Still gotta be a bit of a psychological trip to know your face was removed and one that looked and felt just like it (probably) was attached in its place.

(One also wonders, as one's mind wanders, why the Jigsaw face disguise-ware from Spy Games wasn't given a capacity rating, unless we assume people with cyber skulls just can't use it.)

Honestly, much of 4A is a cut-and-paste job with chopping out stuff. Given their history with not being on the same page, printing wrong copies of street magic, I'm fairly sure that they just forgot to paste the synthetic skull in.
Happened in augmentation too - when some of the official folks came by for unofficial errata, they just kind of forgot to print the nano-biomonitor's benefit.

As you have said, there's no official errata or word on it or anything. A Dumbass Catalyst Mistake seems a LOT more likely in my experience than anything intentional and coordinated.

Also, the synthetic one is even more useless than the obvious one . .
I think you get the -3 to social and not even the + to intimidation . . .
AND it has even less capacity than the obvious one too . .

Actually, I have a few questions about cyberlimbs, thought this might be a relevant thread to add them.

Cyberlimb Enhancements
6) If you want to increase BOD, AGI, or STR, takes CAP 1, Availability 3 and 500 yen per rank. This is over your character's base attribute, right? For example, an AGI 3 character with 1 cyberarm AGI 4 would have effective AGI 7 for one handed weapons, AGI 5 for 2 handed weapons and AGI 4 for general AGI tests such as Infiltration. Is this right?
7) What is the upper limit of such AGI boosts - racial max x 1.5? Racial max? ... I seem to remember reading in the book somewhere that you can't add too many dice to stats from a cyberlimb without a cybertorso to "anchor" it, but can't find it.
The Customized Limb stat boosts start from 1 right? So the same AGI 3 guy could get an AGI 5 customized limb and get effective AGI 5 for 1 handed, AGI 4 for 2 handed and base AGI 3 for full body AGI tests. Going to racial max customized limb 6, his effective AGI would be 6, 4 and 3, correct?

Modular cyberlimbs
9) With a modular cyberlimb, is there anything in the BBB about having only part of it interchangeable? For example, take a CAP 10 lower arm with only the CAP 4 hand part modular? Nanohives are expensive ...
10) If (9) is OK, could you then use Expanded Capacity 4 on only the changeout hand? (i.e. leaving you with CAP 6 base and CAP 8 to play with for changeouts?) Or would you have to split the Expanded Capacity based on total Capacity (i.e. CAP 8 base and CAP 6 modular)?

[quote name='Midas' date='Feb 3 2012, 12:28 AM' post='1137912']
Cyberlimb Enhancements
6) If you want to increase BOD, AGI, or STR, takes CAP 1, Availability 3 and 500 yen per rank. This is over your character's base attribute, right? For example, an AGI 3 character with 1 cyberarm AGI 4 would have effective AGI 7 for one handed weapons, AGI 5 for 2 handed weapons and AGI 4 for general AGI tests such as Infiltration. Is this right? [/quote

No. Cyberlimbs start at stats of 3, and can be Customized(No capacity, just more cost and availability) up to your normal racial maximums. You need Enhancements to take their stats past the Natural Maximum and hit the Augmented Maximum, but you can't do it through customization.
Enhancements are cheaper, though, and using them to jump from AGI3 to AGI 9 is perfectly acceptable.

Here: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?top...g70364#msg70364

That's a good explanation of how cyberlimbs work.

Thanks Umarov, think I got it down now. To summarise:
*All cyberlimbs have BOD3 AGI3 STR3 to go; you can up to racial max by Customization (1,500/point, +1 Availability, 0 Capacity), and/or use Enhancements (500/point, 1 Capacity, up to +3 max without cybertorso to anchor it to).
*To work out total stat bonus from cyberlimb, for 1-handed use limb stat, for 2-handed use average of limb stat + unmod AGI (or whatever), for full body actions add all limbs + torso stats and divide by 5 (2 arms, 2 legs, torso).

A few questions:
11) Rounding: Do you round up above 0.5, or do you need the full + to calculate stats for actions, soak, etc.
12) Why no love for partial limbs on the averaging stats? Seems you really need to go full limb or nothing if you don't get a boost from partial limbs ...

Almost, but for actions that require "careful coordination of multiple limbs" you take the lowest. There's no real clear definition of what that is.

11) Round down, always.
12) You take partial limbs if you want cyberlimb accessories (ie, armor, nanohive, cyberarm gyromount, stuff like that) but don't want stat averaging because you already have good stats. Remember that for multiple-limb actions, partial limbs never count, so if you have two lower legs you still use your real agility/strength/etc for running and jumping and stuff.

Partial limbs are lame. It's bad enough that you can use the agility and strengh from just one limb for melee attacks. Do you really think you can throw a punch or block with just your forearm?

The first piece of cyberware retconned out of existence (kind-of) were Program Carriers; they allowed you to go into the matrix 'naked', without a cyberdeck, using only the three most vital programs. Dodger has one extended on the SR1 rulebook cover art (the thing that looks like cyberspurs). It was taken out for SR2 with an off-hand in-game explanation that they gave the users brain cancer or something like it (I may be wrong on that last part, don't feel like digging out the old books and looking).

I'm pretty sure the synthetic cyberskull still exists as it is listed in the 'compiled tables' booklet from 'Runner's Toolkit'.

Yeah, Jigsaw-face most definately needs capacity...




No. But there are tons of things you can do with only your forearm! Like...like...typing! and...and...squeezing! and...and...strength work-out techniques that isolate the forearm!

No but a cyberhand on a mage wanting to save on essence can do wonders with a nanohive in it alongside a monofilament whip.

- J.

I'm not bitching about the utility of partial limbs.
In some way's they're more realistic than full replacements. I just wish they had done more to discourage or lower the utility of having a big discrepancy in stats across the body. Cyberware and cyberlimbs are my main interest in SR but I really really hate the, shooting/fighting with only one limb BS.

Yeah the best way is to use the average for most tests, really.

Question: I understand how limb stat averaging works when dealing with "combined" actions that make use of your full body. However, what if you've gone for a full borg (all limbs, torso, skull) build? Do you still average in your "natural" stats for Agi, Str, Bod? For all intents and purposes you have no natural stats anymore because your whole body has been replaced. I tried to look in the canon text in SR4A to see if that was covered but didn't find it. Thanks in advance.

Some characters may have the cyber because of injuries. See also, the newest incarnation of Deus Ex.






Yes, they do. An obvious Arm or Leg costs 15K; a Synthetic Arm or Leg costs 20K.

Synthetic limbs also have about half the capacity of an obvious limb of the same type.






Nope.

Cyberlimbs start with 3's across the board. This can then be tuned ("customised") to match your character's base attributes. For each attribute that is above three, this costs 1,500 (and adds +1 to the Availability of the limb). So if you had Body 4, Agility 5, Strength 3 ... getting a Bo4/Ag5/St3 limb would cost 4,500 nuyen more than a "basic model" of the same type.

Separately, you can then add Enhanced attributes, up to +7, at the prices listed in the core rulebook (Rating x 200 for Body, Rating x 250 for Strength or Agility).


+7. Right in the table, SR4A page 343.


No, from 3. And those boosts cannot exceed your natural, unaugmented Agility. If yur natural Agility is 4, you cannot Customise a limb to have Agility 5. Instead, you Customise it to 4 ... and then get Enhanced Agility +1 for that limb. (Which is cheaper anyway - but takes Capacity.)






If you don't need or want the +Agility, they're fine. I've got a gunslinger character with just a lower-right-arm. He's a bodyguard, so I put a MAD Scanner in the hand. Plus a Magnetic System, so he can keep holdof his gun easier. (Mostly as a style choice, instead of Gecko grips on the gun.)

Partial limbs have the best ratio of essence used to capacity gained.
And they do not fuck you up on those test, where you take the avarage.
But having a hand with an high agility might come in very handy.
And they still add one box for your condition monitor.

@_Pax._

You are mistaken. you can go up to 6.
So, yes you could save a lot of Karma, if you are replacing your limbs. Problem here would be you do not have anything to spend it on. Exept if you are a magician...Anyhow.

Wow, that's .... that's yet another houserule I'm implementing, as of now. O_o

Not as bad as it sounds _Pax_.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is very bad ruling. Only to be a bit balance by bad ruling in other parts of the game...

I disagree, Irion... The second you implement such rules for cyber-limb stats (restricting customization to actual Stat value, rather than Unaugmented Natural Maximum of 6), you must also implement them for normal stats and cyber augmentration. It is counter to the genre.

Um. Aren't you two actually agreeing? I took TJ to mean that adding the house rule (mentioned by Pax) is not necessary, which Irion also said.

The whole Customize vs. Enhance thing is a bit of a silly mess, but it's not a dangerous one. You're either spending more money or more capacity; as long as you're spending something. If you like, tweak those *costs* (upward).

Probably...
Now that you point it out, I am not actually sure what Irion's point was... My point was that the rules are okay for Limbs in that _Pax_'s Houserule was not really necessary, as you pointed out Yerameyahu. Perhaps we ARE agreeing.