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Aerospider
I have a couple of queries on the finer points of Matrix mechanics, specifically personas vs nodes.

1 - The rules mention programs being loaded on a node and being loaded into a persona. Are these things different or effectively the same?

2 - The stats of the persona are inherited from but distinct from those of the node. Under what circumstances do they differ?

Cheers.
Sengir
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Feb 3 2012, 12:19 PM) *
1 - The rules mention programs being loaded on a node and being loaded into a persona. Are these things different or effectively the same?

A program loaded into a node is not usable by anyone. The only point where it comes into play is detecting an intrusion attempt (once the hacker is inside it's useless again). I suggest you just ignore this weird oddball and mentally replace all instances of "Firewall + Analyze" with "Firewall*2) wink.gif
Yerameyahu
The persona is the firmware that 'you' use when running things on your commlink, and it's what you 'project' into nodes that you 'go' to. (Yeah, the Matrix is very un-technical. smile.gif ) So, for commlinks, the programs are technically running in the persona. For nexi, which support multiple personas, it can be either way (if the nexus is running a 'general use' program for all personas), and things like patrolling IC aren't necessarily running in any user's persona either.

I can't think of any off the top of my head, I guess. Maybe if you used Reality Filter while accessing a node, but who does that? biggrin.gif
Warlordtheft
Well here is how I interpret it:

Nodes: Most electronic devices are effectively nodes, this includes commlinks, drones, a nexus, the coffe pot, the car, etc, etc. Typically the node can handle a number of personas equal to its system rating (IIRC) and a number of programs equal to twice the system rating of the node before response degradation begins.

Nexus:Basicially the equivelent of a server and can carry more personas before degredation begins that affects everyone on the node.

Persona: Basically it is the virtual location/presence of a user or agent. Note an agent in its home node does not count toward the persona limit. Also any programs the persona uses are located on the home node of the Persona or agent.

Example:
Rigger Bob is using his comlink (a node), and sends out a signal to another node to jump in his drone. In the matrix this is represented by his persona going to the node, at which point the controls of the drone appear before him (in AR) or he controls it in VR by thought with the sensory input going directly to his grey matter.

Technically, bob is just communicating with the drone via his comlink--though from Bob's perception he is effectivly in the drone (if going full VR).
Yerameyahu
No, only nexi can handle more than 1 persona. But this almost never affects anything anyway. smile.gif AFAIK, the only use nexi have for extra personas is translating them into addition Processor Limit (or for multiple users at a lab, perhaps). I never understood the existence of 'matrix cafes'; disposable commlinks are dirt cheap, and regular ones are regular cheap. biggrin.gif

I mentioned earlier the possibility of 'general use' shared programs on the server, but I'd have to check the book to see if those are 'loaded' on the node, or just 'stored' there (and then 'loaded' on the different personas). I suspect it's the latter, actually.
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 3 2012, 02:58 PM) *
For nexi, which support multiple personas, it can be either way (if the nexus is running a 'general use' program for all personas)

SR4A, p. 232
A program that is stored is loaded into thepersona or agent. Thiis is analogous to wearing a holstered weapon or putting a tool in your pocket; a loaded program is being carried for later use. There is no limit to the number of programs that may be loaded into a persona or agent.
In order to use a program, it must be running. A running program is executed by the device on which your persona is running and belongs to your persona; only you may use the program.


QUOTE
and things like patrolling IC aren't necessarily running in any user's persona either.

Agents have their own rules allowing them to run independently. For normal programs there is no such thing, with the one single exception which is only used in one single case -- bad design, but easily avoided.
Yerameyahu
Server-Side Programs are in Unwired, p109. smile.gif
QUOTE
In game terms, a user with the appropriate account privileges can use these programs without running their own. In this case, the software does not count towards the user’s processor limit (see p. 48), but it does count towards the node’s processor limit.

If IC are special, then it's a good thing I specifically mentioned them as an exception. wink.gif
Aerospider
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Feb 3 2012, 03:36 PM) *
Typically the node can handle a number of personas equal to its system rating (IIRC) and a number of programs equal to twice the system rating of the node before response degradation begins.

Yam got the personas bit.
Response degradation kicks in/increases when the number of programs running (processor load) hits a multiple of the Response rating of the node. Or is it the persona?

E.g. Response 4 would allow full rating with 0-3 programs running, Response of 3 with 4-7 programs running, Response of 2 with 8-11 programs running, Response of 1 with 12-15 programs running and seizes up beyond that.

There is at least one section in Unwired (don't ask me where) which states that Response (and multiples thereof) must be exceeded to cause an increase in degradation (i.e. the bands would be 0-4, 5-8, 9-12 and 13-16). I prefer the harsher version, but it's much of a muchness.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 3 2012, 04:39 PM) *
SR4A, p. 232
A program that is stored is loaded into thepersona or agent. Thiis is analogous to wearing a holstered weapon or putting a tool in your pocket; a loaded program is being carried for later use. There is no limit to the number of programs that may be loaded into a persona or agent.
In order to use a program, it must be running. A running program is executed by the device on which your persona is running and belongs to your persona; only you may use the program.

That's the bit of text I needed to (re)read, thanks!

So what about the ratings? When does a persona's ratings ever differ from the node's?

The only example I can find is a PC AI (got one in my game). Are there any others?
Yerameyahu
I still can't think of any. smile.gif

I agree that Response Degradation should err on the side of harsher; as the rules stand, it's all but ignorable. It barely affects anything, and you have to really be running a lot.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 3 2012, 05:57 PM) *
I still can't think of any. smile.gif

I agree that Response Degradation should err on the side of harsher; as the rules stand, it's all but ignorable. It barely affects anything, and you have to really be running a lot.

I think there's a problem in how quick programs are to run. If you need something and don't have it loaded it's only 1 IP away, so no need to have lots on the go at once. Also makes the crash action very weak. Attack someone or spend an action trying to cost them an action - no choice at all.
Yerameyahu
Well, there are tons of programs I'd want to have running 24/7. smile.gif And there's very little penalty for doing so if I'm not in Cybercombat (which is never) or maybe rigging. Worst case, you get an extra commlink to run all your sensor programs, heh.
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 3 2012, 05:53 PM) *
Server-Side Programs are in Unwired, p109. smile.gif

The rules for "resident programs", also in UW, would probably be more relevant here wink.gif

But the problem is that the corebook shouldn't need and additional book to explain how this is possible. And that additional book actually only makes things worse. Why do I need Agents if programs can suddenly work by themselves? Screw IC, just have Analyze and Black Hammer as resident programs and the poor victim can't even fight back in Cybercombat because you can't attack the node itself...
hobgoblin
Things because a fair bit muddy with the transition to SR4, where every device became a host/node.

One thing to keep in mind is that usually a node does not run programs directly (agents, and the analyze program, excuded). There has to be a persona involved.

Now a persona can run programs from its home node (where the user is physically connected), or the node it is in at present. The programs from the home node are available to the persona anywhere, while programs from other nodes are only available within that node.

And i do no think there is ever a case where persona and node stats differ.

Btw, i am not surprised that people are confused. The changes in SR4 brings the rules more in line with modern day computing. Previous rules were more in line with the micro-computer era, where a home computer would do squat without some kind of program loaded. But with the advent of the x86, and a modern multitasking OS on every desktop, every home computer is also a server. And if one run a OS that is not artificially limited to only having one user active at a time, one get situations not unlike SR4 where someone can be logged onto your comlink while your logged onto their nexi or similar.

Basically the cyberdeck of previous editions were basically a C64, TRS-80 or Amstrad with the screen replaced with a direct brain interface. the SR4 comlink is pretty much the same as your Android phone.
Yerameyahu
Hehe, Sengir, it can't be more relevant than 'the exact thing I was talking about', which was Server-Side. biggrin.gif I agree that 'resident' sounds like *another* relevant point, though we're both only just mentioning the weird exceptions to the basic 'personas load programs' concept.
Aerospider
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 4 2012, 01:07 PM) *
And i do no think there is ever a case where persona and node stats differ.

Well, they aren't personas per se, but AIs and agents have their own System and Firewall stats. The PC AI in my game only has a Firewall of 2 and he has to use Karma to raise it, which is odd for a non-Resonance entity.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Feb 5 2012, 06:56 PM) *
Well, they aren't personas per se, but AIs and agents have their own System and Firewall stats. The PC AI in my game only has a Firewall of 2 and he has to use Karma to raise it, which is odd for a non-Resonance entity.

Now here's a question. An agent's Pilot rating functions as its System rating, but by literal RAW Response limits the System program.
Should this be taken to mean that an agent's System rating does not reduce with a lower Response rating, since it doesn't technically have a System program, or is that excessive rules-lawyerage?
Yerameyahu
Can you give an example of this in action? I'm not sure I follow.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 6 2012, 12:26 AM) *
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Can you give an example of this in action? I'm not sure I follow.

Well if a rating 5 agent were running on a Response 4 System 5 node, the Jose's System rating would be reduced to 4 by the Response, but would the same apply to the agent's System rating? The key difference being that Response caps the System program and the agent's System rating actually comes from its Pilot program.

But now that I've thought it through the agent's Pilot rating would be capped by the node's System rating anyway, so in effect it is capped by the node's Response.
Darquewing
Well, since the Pilot program is running on a rating 4 System (reduced by the response that system is running on), then I would assume the System of the Pilot program is equal to it's current rating. So it would be 4.

I think the system rating of the Agent is encapsulated under the program rating. In an outline it would be:


Node: Response 4
----OS system (5, now 4 because of response)
--------Agent/Pilot 5 no Optimization (now 4 because of system 4)
------------Internal System = Agent/Pilot rating = 4


I think this makes sense. AI's would be the weird case, because their Rating/System/Firewall are all based off of their mental attributes. In their home node, this usually isn't an issue, and thankfully, they can run from it like hackers do from their home node. Now when they move out of their home node into a different node, what happens to their Rating/System when the new node does not have a high response? Are they slowed by it? Or is their an unmentioned "Optimization" option on AIs?
hobgoblin
Do not forget (even tho SR4A and Unwired contradicts each other in this) that a Agent or AI do not need to move to a node to access one.

They can, similar to personas, access multiple nodes at the same time without actually running on them.
Yerameyahu
See, what I'm asking is: when does an agent's 'System' ever matter for anything? (And by extension, when does an agent have its own Firewall, and why?) Just cybercombat?

Sorry, I'm not doubting the facts you presented (clearly, they do have these stats); I'm just trying to imagine when this would matter, and in what way. smile.gif
Warlordtheft
I always thought it used the firewall of the node it is hosted on (not necessarily the node that it is in). BTW-Back to the point about persona limits on the node, I was refering to the number of personas on the node (aka communicating with it), not necissarily the number hosted. So a system 4 node could have upt ot 4 personas on it in addition to the user.
Yerameyahu
They definitely have their own Firewall (=Rating) and 'System' (=Rating). I'm just asking who cares. smile.gif

Can you reference that? I've never heard of a 'personas present' limit; that's what the Subscription Limit is for, I thought.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Feb 6 2012, 02:57 PM) *
BTW-Back to the point about persona limits on the node, I was refering to the number of personas on the node (aka communicating with it), not necissarily the number hosted. So a system 4 node could have upt ot 4 personas on it in addition to the user.

This is not the case. Any number of personas can communicate with a node at once (see below). The limiting factor is the number of subscriptions a node can handle at a time, which not all communications require. IIRC the rules are contradictory - in one place it states 2 x System is an absolute subscription limit, but elsewhere it states that exceeding this limit reduces Response each time (as with running too many programs). Any 'hosted' personas do not count because they do not take up a subscription slot.

Now if you're talking non-subscription limits on communications then there is only the DDOS section in UW. IIRC response is reduced by 1 for every System x 4 'bots' throwing communication requests at it, but the GM may rule this is only applicable when the communication requests of each agent/persona/whatever are coming as thick and fast as they do in a DDOS attack.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Feb 6 2012, 09:00 AM) *
This is not the case. Any number of personas can communicate with a node at once (see below). The limiting factor is the number of subscriptions a node can handle at a time, which not all communications require. IIRC the rules are contradictory - in one place it states 2 x System is an absolute subscription limit, but elsewhere it states that exceeding this limit reduces Response each time (as with running too many programs). Any 'hosted' personas do not count because they do not take up a subscription slot.

Now if you're talking non-subscription limits on communications then there is only the DDOS section in UW. IIRC response is reduced by 1 for every System x 4 'bots' throwing communication requests at it, but the GM may rule this is only applicable when the communication requests of each agent/persona/whatever are coming as thick and fast as they do in a DDOS attack.


The Subscription Limit of 2xSystem is a Hard Limit for what you get for Free. Anything above that counts as an active program, and can thus degrade Response. It is not a contradiction.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 6 2012, 05:35 PM) *
The Subscription Limit of 2xSystem is a Hard Limit for what you get for Free. Anything above that counts as an active program, and can thus degrade Response. It is not a contradiction.

SR4a p.224 "Each persona is limited to a number of subscriptions equal to twice its System" is a contradiction. However, I had not accounted for the alternative version being in UW so I guess it could be considered a re-write or 'advanced' rule instead.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Feb 6 2012, 12:02 PM) *
SR4a p.224 "Each persona is limited to a number of subscriptions equal to twice its System" is a contradiction. However, I had not accounted for the alternative version being in UW so I guess it could be considered a re-write or 'advanced' rule instead.


It is indeed an Advanced Rule... smile.gif
I Probably should have mentioned that... smile.gif
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