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Tashiro
Force (SR4A Pg 177)
Spells, spirits, and magic items (foci) have an attribute known as Force. This measures the magical power of the object, spell, or being. Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6). For spells and foci, this is often their only attribute.


What does this mean? Spinning it around in my head, I've got some theories:
* Natural 1 to 6 means 'Force 1 to 6'.
* This could be increased through the character's Initiate Rating, thus 'raising the limit'.
* Alternatively, '1 to 6 + Magic Rating'.

The latter one would presume a mage can cast anything up to Force (Magic + 6), allowing a Magic 1 magician to cast up to Force 7 (and exploding prettily when he tries it).
The former would presume a mage can cast anything up to (6 + Initiate Level), allowing a Magic 1, Initiate 0, magician to cast up to Force 6, while a mage of Initiate 3 could cast up to Force 9.

Theories aside, what does this do? Can a mage not cast spells over Force 6, or summon a Force 8 spirit, risking serious harm? From what I've seen of Street Legends, this is not the case, as there are magicians in Street Legends with a Power Focus of 10, bound spirits of Force 12, and Quickened Spells of Force 10. (For the record, example character has Initiation 10, Magic Attribute 16).

Thoughts?
kzt
It's poor writing. I suspect that their are examples in the rules contradict that, as magic is not capped. So yeah, someone with magic 9 can cast a force 18 manabolt. It might not be wise, but they can.
Mäx
That just an example bad writing.
Max force for a spell is the casters Magic*2.
pbangarth
The casting of spells and summoning of spirits is clearly limited by the MAG Attribute. The limit on fabricating magic objects is a little less clear, as that involves an Enchanting + Magic Extended Test, so chance plays a part.
SpellBinder
As I recall from the core book itself, casting spells and summoning spirits is limited in force to your twice Magic attribute (ignoring Drain for the moment). So a magician with a Magic of 16 can in deed summon a Force 32 spirit if they were so inclined to try, or cast a Force 32 spell if the excrement were about to hit the air dispersal device.

Initiate grade merely indicates the possible maximum your Magic attribute can go to. Unless you actually up the Magic attribute itself, unless there's metamagic I've forgotten about, your Initiate grade does not increase the Force of your spellcasting or conjuring allowed.

A quick look in SM doesn't seem to suggest any limit on the force of any foci, short of what the Force of the magical lodge is. IIRC that's also limited by your Magic attribute as well. Means it's quite plausible that Lugh Surehand made that Force 10 weapon focus himself.

I agree with kzt that it appears to be poor writing. The only thing limited to a Force of 1 to 6 are the foci a character can purchase at character generation & the bound spirits a magician/mystic might start with (IIRC, Force = Magic Attribute). At least, that's what I can recall off hand.
Cojuzei
The way I see it, it's still within the set boundaries of the ruling itself. Given spell force "natural" measurement of 1 through 6. This is 1 through 6 for nonlethal, and then 1 through 6 lethal (stacking on top of the original 1 through 6 for a possible total of 12) as a separate entity. Now, when you get into Initiation, you're getting into "unnatural", which then falls outside of the original rule's parameters. This is how I've interpreted it, though in that sense it's much less "poor writing" as "just gotta think differently".

Either way, foci still don't go beyond 6. I see no examples of such a thing occurring. I may post on other forums to clear up the confusion on stacked foci in this regard.
SpellBinder
You need to look at Lugh Surehand's equipment in the Street Legends PDF (page 39). I erred in my post above, saying he has a Force 10 weapon focus. He's got a Force 10 Combat Counterspelling Focus, two Force 10 Sustaning Foci (lacking what spell types they'll hold), and a Force 10 Manipulation Counterspelling Focus. In his list of weapons is a Force 7 rapier weapon focus.
Cojuzei
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 4 2012, 12:21 AM) *
You need to look at Lugh Surehand's equipment in the Street Legends PDF (page 39). I erred in my post above, saying he has a Force 10 weapon focus. He's got a Force 10 Combat Counterspelling Focus, two Force 10 Sustaning Foci (lacking what spell types they'll hold), and a Force 10 Manipulation Counterspelling Focus. In his list of weapons is a Force 7 rapier weapon focus.

That's also an NPC, and in the first sentence of the first paragraph under his description on page 136 "Lugh Surehand was once one of the most powerful, influential, and important leaders of the modern world." Just as with the true dragons in the setting, this isn't something a player character would expect to achieve, and as such he'll have things that no player should be able to get without explicit GM permission. The original rule still stands.
SpellBinder
Why not? Going on that is like telling a hacker that he can't write a rating 7 or higher program if he wants to. Lugh's foci don't break any rules, nor require any special notes (unlike Martin De Vries' Essence Focus & various items from Big D's hoard).

Is it unlikely an awakened PC is going to have a focus with a rating higher than 6? Sure. Should it be impossible? Heck no. More than one sample magical group in Street Magic has access to a Force 7 or higher magical lodge (a magical item), something a PC can claim membership to. SR4a does not state any upper end limit on Magical Lodges (or other magical items) unlike most other rated gear (maglocks, glasses, some programs, medkits, etc.), save for the rating/Force of 6 for anything a character can have at creation.
Nath
My personal interpretation is, the natural range of human attribute is 1 to 6, yet the Exceptional Attribute Quality and Attribute boosts from magic, augmentations drugs exist. The natural range of Magic Force is 1 to 6, even if overcasting and Initiation exist.

Force above 6 is possible, but clearly stand out as not natural and not normal. Initiation involves a deep sapient knowledge of the fabric of Magic. And as I like to point out, overcasting is very similar to blood magic (blood magic allowing you to take any amount of physical damage instead of drain stun damage). Much like I would describe a NPC with Exceptional Attribute (Strength) to my player as "having muscle you didn't know existed" and "making you suspecting a genetic treatment of some sort", the mage astrally peeping at a Force 7+ would see "cracks and twists in the surrounding astral space."
Udoshi
QUOTE (Nath @ Feb 4 2012, 04:22 AM) *
Force above 6 is possible, but clearly stand out as not natural and not normal. Initiation involves a deep sapient knowledge of the fabric of Magic. And as I like to point out, overcasting is very similar to blood magic (blood magic allowing you to take any amount of physical damage instead of drain stun damage).


Just so you know, this is pretty much wrong. Drain above your limits takes more than it should out of you.
There ARE some similarities between earthdawn's sacrifice magic, blood magic, and how everyone casts magic in the sixth world - its come up a few times before.

But the major difference blood magic makes is that instead of your magic with a magical bruise, you pay for it in blood.
They both end up being physical damage boxes.
But blood magic damage isn't drain. You can Heal it. That's the reason blood magic is so scary, and I'm not sure you realized that implication before

We had a magical doctor in a new game, a former blood mage(backstory, not rules) who's Mentor Spirit had guided him away from self-destructive magics back onto a more sane and producting path of arcane power. In practice, his blood magic background was reflected by taking the Life Magic metamagic from ancient histories advanced magic notes. He never had to break OUT this trick, but he had an invoked great-form plant possession spirit with regeneration on standby. They get Regeneration, you see.
Irion
Well, the rule is quite clear.
Spells, Spirits and Foci are limited to Force 6. Period. As a matter of fact it is not contradicting given rules.
If I am able to jump 1 meter high but the roof is only one inch over my head... Lower limit always applys.

And RAW needs to be considered before any "fluff descriptions of NPCs".

This are the rules, and I would like for anybody to provide prove for the opposite.

I totally argee with the fact, that the guy writing this rules did not really talk with people writing other rules. The question which side thought more about their rules is open.
(The other magic rules are not consistant with the rest of the rulebook, which kind of sucks!)
I totally agree that nobody really uses this rule.
BUT: Still RAW.
So if you change it, you houserule this section.

QUOTE ("kzt Feb 4 2012 08:17")
It's poor writing. I suspect that their are examples in the rules contradict that, as magic is not capped. So yeah, someone with magic 9 can cast a force 18 manabolt. It might not be wise, but they can.

None, I would be aware off....
Mages with higher Force? Yes, sure. Free Spirits? Possible... But both are not contradicting this rule...

And if a rule, which solves the two problems with the most bitching about on dumpshock, is just bad wording... I do not know...

@SpellBinder
Well, first off all:
If you say X is ok, because it is in book Y. Then Z has to be OK because it is in book Y. And if iteams in this book tend to break the rules, using this book to make assumption on the rules... Well, is kind of strange thinking.
Example iteams, things that NPCs can or can't do contradicting the rules is so widespread, that looking at NPCs/Adventures in order to understand the rules better is fallacy on its own.
Yerameyahu
The "scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6)" line is clearly just a comparison to the mechanic, not a rule that Force goes 1 to 6. This is beyond obvious, because metahuman attributes don't even follow the 1 to 6 rule (think about… any race).
Irion
@Yerameyahu
Why writing 1-6 if everything is meant, outside 1-6?

If I had to guess, the guy writing this thought a limit was needed like with everything else. So he took the "standart" limit.
Actually he had quite the right idea... But the limit is a bit off...

As a matter of fact, there is nothing else where foci could behave like attributes. (I mean a powerfoci 3 does not cost 48 Karma to bind...)
UmaroVI
After a minute or two of looking:

"As a guideline, most bound spirits with a Force greater than 6 become free" SM 106.

If your interpretation were right, no bound spirits with Force > 6 could exist.

Yerameyahu
Because it's just referring to the normal human range as illustrative, Irion. (Spells, etc. don't even have 'natural' attributes… or unnatural ones.) In what other sense could 'the same scale' even be interpreted? The 1-6 scale proposed here *isn't* the same scale as metahuman attributes.

I don't care about foci at all, their stats can be limited by the Avail/Cost tables. But it's clearly incorrect to suggest that metahuman attributes, spells, or spirits are limited to 6. We know that's wrong. You're vastly overstating your position to say that a max 6 is "quite clear".
Irion
@Yerameyahu
So it referece to it for what? If it does not give one?
You are acutally saying this paragraph has NO REASON to exist.

@UmaroVI
Sense says you are right, logic says no contradiction. (Actually if you think of in game logic, it is resonable to assume, that it is impossible to summon spirits of a force higher than 6 with normal means...Or there would be a lot of free spirits on the planet. 1% of the population is magical, say 1/100 is a good mage, binding force 7 or 8 spirits once a year. Lets take a 20 year periode. A force 7 spirit goes free in around 43% of the cases and a force 8 spirit goes free in around 53%. This would mean every mage would produce around 10 free spirits in a twenty year periode. (Since rebinding is kind of stupid!) )
Lets take the today population of 7 billons and take 2 off due to vitas...
This means the free spirit population is (only due to higher force spirits) rising by 5 millions every 20 years....


Tashiro
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 4 2012, 09:56 AM) *
And RAW needs to be considered before any "fluff descriptions of NPCs".
If you say X is ok, because it is in book Y. Then Z has to be OK because it is in book Y. And if iteams in this book tend to break the rules, using this book to make assumption on the rules... Well, is kind of strange thinking.
Example iteams, things that NPCs can or can't do contradicting the rules is so widespread, that looking at NPCs/Adventures in order to understand the rules better is fallacy on its own.


I'm actually of the mind that anything an NPC has / can get, a PC can potentially have / get. If an NPC can bond a Force 12 focus, that means a PC can bond a Force 12 focus. If an NPC can summon a Force 18 spirit, that means a PC can, eventually, summon a Force 18 spirit. There's no reason why NPCs should have things which are going to always be out of the reach of PCs. Creativity and luck should allow such things to be within reach of PCs.
Irion
@Tashiro
The point is, the authers thinking up NPCs are mostly not paying much attention to the rules.
It gets even worse with NPCs in adventures...
UmaroVI
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 4 2012, 11:46 AM) *
@UmaroVI
Sense says you are right, logic says no contradiction. (Actually if you think of in game logic, it is resonable to assume, that it is impossible to summon spirits of a force higher than 6 with normal means...Or there would be a lot of free spirits on the planet. 1% of the population is magical, say 1/100 is a good mage, binding force 7 or 8 spirits once a year. Lets take a 20 year periode. A force 7 spirit goes free in around 43% of the cases and a force 8 spirit goes free in around 53%. This would mean every mage would produce around 10 free spirits in a twenty year periode. (Since rebinding is kind of stupid!) )
Lets take the today population of 7 billons and take 2 off due to vitas...
This means the free spirit population is (only due to higher force spirits) rising by 5 millions every 20 years....


Uh, what? I am aware that SR demographics make no damn sense, but my point was pretty simple.

1) You were claiming mages cannot summon or bind spirits above force 6.

2) The quote I stated clearly indicates that bound spirits above force 6 exist.

3) Ergo, your claim cannot be correct.
Irion
@UmaroVI
Actually no.
There is no reason you would assume from the text, that those spirits would need to be bound by PC-mages.

There are enough "beeings"which are quite more powerfull than the "PC-rules" would suggest.
Great Dragons and immortal elfs do not need to follow the rules...
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 4 2012, 05:56 PM) *
None, I would be aware off....

p.182
"maximum Force that a spell can be cast at is equal to twice the character’s Magic."
p.183
" maximum Force a spell can be cast at equals the spellcaster’s Magic rating x 2."
p.188
"summoned spirit’s Force is limited by the magician’s Magic attribute. No magician may summon a spiritwhose Force is greater than twice her Magic attribute."

Do i need to go on?
Irion
@Mäx
Different limits, does not mean the other does not apply or is wrong.

Actually there are several instances in the rules where two limits apply.

For example the adept power of "increased skill" is limited by the skill it is increasing and the adepts magic attribute.
Following your logic the rule can only increase a skill by 50% percent would be wrong, because you may buy this power magic times.
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 4 2012, 08:21 PM) *
@Mäx
Different limits, does not mean the other does not apply or is wrong.

Actually there are several instances in the rules where two limits apply.

For example the adept power of "increased skill" is limited by the skill it is increasing and the adepts magic attribute.
Following your logic the rule can only increase a skill by 50% percent would be wrong, because you may buy this power magic times.

Except that it clearly states in improved ability that "A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5."
So it doesn't matter at all how many times that power can be taken.
Yerameyahu
"You are acutally saying this paragraph has NO REASON to exist." … Yup? So? There are many such paragraphs in the rules. smile.gif

All they were trying to say, very badly, is that Force ratings (like everything in the game) are on the same basic scale. Just like programs, explosives, sensors, etc. The most common *range* is about 1 to 6, but that doesn't at all mean the limits are 1 to 6; the fact that they chose metahuman attributes proves that, because they obviously go from 1 to 6, 10, +.
Tashiro
While I didn't expect the conversation to be so energetic, I'm glad I posted this. Thanks, people, for helping to clarify this - for me and for other people. smile.gif
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