You might want to examining the entries again, specifically for the phrase "F=E", which is very strongly indicative that Force and Essence are interlinked, i.e. rise in the latter results in rise of the former.

If you're going to argue that increases in Essence shouldn't make it smarter, etc..., how is that any different from arguing that its Force shouldn't determine its mental attributes? Spirit-beings seem to be pretty strongly tied to their level of energy, vis-a-vis Force(and Essence). How else are spirits supposed to explain/improve their capabilities? Schooling? Upbringing?

"I bet that the Force 6 Elemental my conjured up out of the ether a few minutes ago had a great childhood and probably has gone to post-secondary school, just look at its mental attributes!"

I mean, Free Spirits do this sort of thing(taking power, gaining power from it permanently), but all of them(save for Hunters) have to take Good Karma(the only other permanent aspect of a character, synonimous with power or life energy, that can be drained) that's been willingly donated. Exceptions to this, of course, are Shedim and Wraiths, who can steal your Good Karma and Karma Pool from you in order to empower themselves. If you're arguing that draining power and gaining power from it is irrational, why is any of this done?

Essence drainers lose Essence constantly, and have hardwired limitations on how much they can possess, which is the price of the speed at which they can improve via Essence drain. It's a quick fix, something they have to keep repeating in order to stay powerful, or even alive. While it might improve them faster on the short term than karmic donation(or drain), it's also only effective on the short-term(varies depending on type, but a month is around the average amount of time between essence losses), and can lead to death if they can't find something to feed off of.

In the rules for ally spirits, they make the mental attributes equal to the force at creation, but subsequent increases in force don't affect their other stats (isn't this right?).

This is why I don't like how Essence Drain is handled mechanically. By all means, everyone should have a static Essence value, and anyone who drains(or is drained) should have a parenthetically encapsulated("modified") Essence rating, which is their Essence for all intents and purposes. This lets more stable mechanics like "the creature's modified Essence rating may not exceed two times its base Essence rating" possible without need for explanation.

I'm sure it works like this already, but without the modified/base distinction always present, things can get confusing in situations like this.

I also like the idea of modified Essence because it makes it seem less antithetical to the game if you've got an inkling to develop a few means by which drained(not lost, before someone jumps on me for claiming I want samurai with 6 Essence) Essence can be restored. You'd just be reducing a negative attribute modifier, rather than changing an attribute outright. For some reason that tends to garner less objections.

Yes, but they're a special case. Every other spirit bases all its attributes on its current Force.

All spirits have all attributes based on force at initial creation, but what about after they pop into existance? Is there a specific mention somewhere about what happens to the attributes of free spirits when they get enough karma to level up? If they do, then what happens to ally spirits once they go free? Do they suddenly get all those missing attribute points?

All spirits have attributes expressed in terms of F+M, where M is some integer value, positive, negative, or zero. As their Force changes, higher or lower, so changes all their attributes. This is universal, except... when we deal with a special case, like allies.

Ally spirits have only physical attributes expressed in terms of F+M. Their mental attributes are static(those of the summoner when they were created). We could create another thread to discuss it, but I'm under the impression the value of M can be changed by the summoner, rather than the attribute directly, during Ritual of Change uses to increase an Ally Spirit's physical attributes(i.e. a Force 3 Ally Spirit, whose Body has been increased to 5, would have a Body of 6 if its Force were increased to 4).

If this is true, though, it makes buying attribute points en masse at lower Force a good idea.

If it's not true, because Force doesn't increase their physical attributes, it either makes Force much less useful to an ally(and makes them unable to advance in all but Force, at all, if they become Free Spirits, since there's no other listed way to improve their attributes). An example of this would be the aforementioned Ally having Body 5, Quickness 3, and Strength 3, even at Force 4.

If it's not true, because Force doesn't consider modifications to attributes, it makes Ritual of Change(Increase Physical Attribute) less useful, as changes made in this way would be eroded as Force increased. An example of this would be the aforementioned Ally having Body 5, Quickness 4, and Strength 4, at Force 4(thus eroding 1 point of that improved Body the caster paid good dishonestly earned karma for).

Either way, this is another topic, or at least one so tangentially related it's derailing the original.

They don't observe unique rules. They observe rules for creatures who have a Force rating and also possess the Essence Drain power. Examine all such creatures, and you'll see that the rule is rather uniform.

It would be insanely powerful, yes, but as stated right there, Force = Essence. Not Essence = Force. When Essence changes, so changes Force. I suppose that makes them insanely powerful. The designers should have omitted the line specifically tying their Force to their current effective Essence rating, if they didn't want that to happen.

I explained my take on how this sort of thing works already, a couple of posts above. I believe that I am correct.

And gosh, wouldn't you know it? Blood Spirits don't have it listed, thus don't have it. So no, all such creatures do not have it. It's a unique trait of a few unique creatures. Period.

By default, Essence = Force if Force = Essence. That's what the = sign means. Not that it matters, as it applies either way.

No, you're not correct because on one hand you're trying to pretend the rules say something they don't (that Blood Spirit's Force = Essence), while on the other hand ignoring what they do say (this particular bit). You have to ignore and rationalize the rules to explain your non-existant addition. Sorry, but that doesn't work.

I know, I know. But I also GM, so my enjoyment starts to slide if I'm pretty sure the GM has something wrong.

Before anything, I'm gonna draw up a list of spirit creatures now that I actually have Critters handy. Blood Spirits are in Magic in the Shadows. Oh, and I was wrong, insofar as that my interpretation was, in fact, adjusted in a later printing. The text that encompasses every spirit creature with Essence drain, in Critters, is "F = current Essence". The addition of the word "current" makes it hang together much more nicely.

1. Baba Yaga*
2. Bean Sidhe*
3. Brocken Bow*
4. Corpselight*
5. Domovoi
6. King Frost
7. Man-Of-The-Woods
8. Nomad*
9. Salamander(Became summonable in Magic in the Shadows)
10. Specter(Expanded upon in Magic in the Shadows)
11. Tungak

* - Has Essence Drain Power(also has the line about Force equalling current Essence, as well as a listed maximum Essence).

There are 5 such creatures in Critters, out of a total of 11 spirit creatures. Seems like more than just an anomaly.

Now, as far as A Clockwork Lime goes, I'm gonna do the standard rebuttals. I don't think they'll be read carefully, or considered, before they're responded to, but it kind of looks like I'm conceding the point if I don't. This is why I hate social interaction.

Except that Blood Spirits are in an entirely different book, and(no offense here, but it's true) there's a habit among the developers and freelancers of not reading all the relevent prior material before making new material. There's a lot of it, so it's not a slight so much as why I have reason to think it's an oversight.

Likewise, you might want to lok up the definition of "unique". Heck, I'll save you the time.

u·nique(yoo-neek) adj.
1. Being the only one of its kind.
2. Without an equal or equivalent; unparalleled.

Being that it is both not the only creature with such a trait(there are five, see above), it's definitely not unique. Likewise, it is completely paralleled in every one of those creatures. Um... exclamation point!

Your reasoning is, then, that the designers believe the reader is dumb enough that, despite all spirits having Essence equal to their Force at creation, that they believe they are required to state it in every spirit creature(except all the ones without Essence Drain, oddly), so people won't just assume it's something like -1 or 4294967296?

Either way, the "is equal to current Essence" line kind of makes it a little harder to argue. If you're gonna start trying to tear down my points, might be a good idea to read the books I'm referencing, or get someone to help you out in that regard. I'm assuming you didn't, because if you did and chose to ignore the above data, your counter is even less valid. This leads me into my next, admittedly somewhat personal, rebuttal...

I want you to quote where I'm suggesting the rules say something different, as opposed to asking if people think, as I do, that Blood Spirits ought to obey the same rules as the other astral native Essence drainers in Critters, and that the lack of specification of such a thing, in the rules, was an oversight.

Now, a conditional to these ones. If you didn't read the actual material, and that led to you arguing that "Force is equal to current Essence" doesn't mean that Force is equal to current Essence?

Don't stand up on a soapbox and start indignantly defending the letter of rules you didn't bother to read.

If you did read it, and ignored it?

Don't say that I am the one doing the ignoring and rationalizing.