I heard that one of the books had stats for ghostwalker and i was wondering where that was i cant seem to find it.

Im running the denver missions w/ some slight alterations for my home group and seeing how they are going they may choose to fight the dragon if they have the chance. They are kinda crazy like that even though ive impressed on them you shouldn't mess with dragons in shadowrun.

The phrase "Never meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" is never more appropriate than in shadowrun.

Dragons of the 6th World maybe, not sure right now . .

Have Ghostwalker just summon a giant bottle of ketchup and huge roasting sticks.
See what the players do.

lol i like that

GW hasn't been statted out, to the best of my knowledge.

oh i was afraid of that then ill just use a great western dragon with some of the stats even further increased, just to make it even more unfair.

Aannnnd don't forget that as a named, well-known character in the published fluff, GW would have a gigantic pile of edge. Just in case anyone actually manages to do some damage.

Hestaby and Lofwyr have though. I'd give Ghost walker the average of the two of them in everything.

For most things, I'd follow Bearclaw's recommendations. I'd up the summoning and spirits that Ghostwalker has access to in comparison though. His lair is probably also aspected to him, so +12 magic for him and -12 for everyone else just as an extra "F You" to anyone stupid enough to attack him on his own home ground.

You seriously think that GW is going to have a Rating 12 Mana Well? That's some serious mojo, he's already rocking with 12 magic.

Um, he's Ghostwalker. Lofwyr is about the only person that stands up to him, and even he's cautious!

GW gets whatever he damned well wants!

EDIT: Great Dragons also didn't live so long and get so powerful by playing fair.

They're also manipulators and have intuition and logic in the 20's. I'm sure it would be VERY embarrassing to Ghost Walker if anyone even got a shot off against him. I mean really. He's 10,000 years old, and has been competeing with Lofwyr, Harlequin and the other immortals for that 10,000 years. About the time the party starts seriously discussing it, an orbital death cow should crash through the roof.

There are no stats for GW, but the thing about upping conjuring and spirits is spot on.

Speaking of dragons, I seem to recall that there were stats for Perianwyr somewhere beside Mercurial and A Killing Glare - something more recent - but I can't seem to find the copy I remember having. Might've been in a magazine or something?

Take a look at Harlequin (Street Legends: Supplemental). He's rocking a Magic of 30...Hestaby has a Magic of 36, Lofwyr has a 27. I think you are drastically underestimating the power level put out for the named Great Dragons.

Well, 12 to start with, for being a dragon.

You push that to 24 and higher, he doesn't really need his own domain to be that much better than the PCs.
But if you want to give him one, make it a reasonable 4 or so. That way the mages can still cast magic, it just won't be useful.
As opposed to throwing them into a region that is, for them, effectively The Moon.

QFT.

Ghostwalker (all one word) probably has a Magic comparable to Harlequin, though probably not as high as Hestaby. He's also going to have ROCKING Conjuring skills, the Spirit Affinity Quality, and more bound spirits than you want to think about. Not to mention the ones that hang out even though they're not bound because they just like being there....

If it were within your power, wouldn't you make sure that no one but you could use magic within your sanctum?

If I were the highly intelligent, scheming, manipulative, and sadistic being that I imagine the greats to be (especially Ghostwalker and Lofwyr) I'd put the threshold juuuust below the "you may not cast magic." That "you have a fighting chance. No really. Go ahead. Cast something. It won't kill you....the first time...."

Yeah, he got statted up in a magazine (which also had the short fiction piece that went with him) to promote Dragons of the 6th World. Since I wrote it, I have a copy of the magazine kickinga round here somewhere. If I find the time tomorrow I'll see if I can find it and scan the stats in.

Bull

That would be awesome! Thank you in advance.

That's about as official as inofficial can get O.o

also: holy crap you people sure have loads of interesting stuff lying around o.O

Nice catch! I had forgotten about that part.

Im thinking ill just have to imply even more that they shouldnt mess w/ ghostwalker when we start getting close to that point. =)

Because it looks like ill be rolling close to 70 dice no matter what i do

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Yeah. Just buy 15-20 successes on every test that isn't critical, and remember to use 'Twist Fate' to negate PC edge use =)

But what's wrong with rolling 70 dice or so...?

Wasn't that one of the stated design goals of SR4 compared to SR3 that this would not happen anymore? *snickers*
Nothing wrong. If you ain't using BUCKETS of D6, you're playing SOMETHNG ELSE.

Well these guys are relatively new to shadowrun and so dont know the dangers posed by even attempting to fight a dragon. So its basiclly up to me to let them infer what the dangers are, and so let their characters decide for themselves

Show them Pictures of Teheran. Before and after Aden. Or Sirrurg. No idea. They all look the same to me . .

Here's how I'd handle it. Everyone roll logic plus intuition (Or stat+ appropriate knowledge skill). Ok, how many hits did you get? Ok the street sam got one, the mage 3 and the rest 2.

1. You're thinking that you can take out a Ghost walker a great dragon. Riigght you and what army.... THe Azzies lost remember (country, and corp)? And as pointed out he is now entrenched in Denver.

2. More specifically a great dragon that has hundreds of spirits backing it up, other mundane allies, and is pretty much indestructable save a thor shot (no don't even go there) or tac nuke.

Sound, shrewd judgment, and the mark of a good GM.

I think there are instances where "infer" might be too soft, actually. If they don't know the system or the setting, they're at a huge disadvantage when it comes to taking dragons, much less Great Dragons, much less Ghostwalker (one of the big three, IMO), seriously enough. It might be an instance where dropping a few hints won't quite get the message across the way it needs to get across.

They'll get the picture when he eats one of them and lets the rest go...

Seriously. Just tell the story of how GW came to town and with no backup whatsoever, claimed Denver and made that claim stick against every major power group in North America. If they still want to go toe to toe after that story...

Yeah ill have to do that, thats pretty much common knowledge so their characters will know that. Plus also we've still got roughly half the campaign to go so they will have plenty of time to get used to this info.

Can anyone explain canonically what's happening with GW in Denver? There are quite a few references about him being distracted, attention elsewhere, dropping the ball on certain issues and the spirits being restless.

I am playing in Denver/may run at some point and would like to know.

- J.

So far? No one really knows. He's involved in the end of Artifacts Unbound, and that explains a bit. Sort of/Not Really. It's a building plotline.

More will be coming in the semi-near future though.

Bull

You should simply make it clear that in an encounter with Ghostwalker,Harlequin and the likes you're not even gonna roll a single die.

I've noticed a tendency for players coming from, say, D&D, to have that issue with SR when they first get started. Less of an awareness of the world as a whole, and the general feeling that they can take on just about anything. They usually get over it after the first time they get their hoops kicked in a big fight. Get them into a mix with KE/Lone Star or Doc Wagon once, but give 'em an out. After a little more awareness of how the game works, they'll think twice about messing with a dragon when the ambulance already messed them up.

It's just a mindset thing.

I don't think it's unique to D&D at all, personally. I think it's just got more to do with the attitude of their last GM, regardless of what setting and game they were in. You see it all the time in video games, for instance, as well -- a 'big bad' only gets built up so that the player feels like a badass when he karate chops him, as a general rule. If there's a bunch of signs saying to stay away from the haunted wood and especially the abandoned mansion in the middle of it, because if you go near either one you'll totally die and stuff, it's the first place a PC will go, because that's where the adventure is, and they assume the GM is scaling threats to match their characters.

And when a game that has those kinds of warnings, but means them? It's gonna be a rude awakening for some players. Sometimes it takes an OOC conversation, not just an IC one, to clear the air and get everyone on the same page.

Ok, found the article. It was in the now defunct Games Unplugged from May 2003. Most of the article is just the Peri write up from Dragons of the 6th World, but it also included Peri's Stat Block, which I'll repost here. (Note: These are 3rd edition Stats. There hasn't been any official 4th edition Stats. yet. Peri had stats in Mercurial (1st Edition) and A Killing Glare (2nd Edition))

B: 15/8
Q: 7 (x3)
S: 40
C: 6
I: 6
W: 8
E: 8
M: 12
R: 6

INIT: 6+2D6 Astral INIT: 30+2D6
Pools: Astral 4, Astral Combat 10, Combat 10, Spell 8
Attacks: 14D, +2 Reach
Karma Pool/Professional Rating: 12/4
Active Skills: Aura Reading 5, Conjuring 4, Divining 6, Etiquette 4, Gaelic 6, Intimidation 5, Latin 5, Negotiation 6, Sorcery 8, Stealth 6, Unarmed Combat 4, Welsh 4
Knowledge Skills: Booze 4, Cutting Edge Bands 6, Denver Clubs 4, Music Industry 5, Prediction 6, Rock n Roll History 8
Powers: Animal Control (Reptiles), Astral Armor, Dragonspeech, Enhanced Senses (Enhanced Smell, Wide-Band hearing, Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision), Hardened Armor, Innate Spell (Flamethrower), Magical Skills
Spells: Detect Life 10, Detox 8, Entertainment 8, Heal 10, Invisibilty 6, Magic Fingers 6, Mana Bolt 9, Mind Probe 6, Mob Mood 6, Shapechange 10, Sleep 8
Metamagic (Initiate grade 4): Cleansing, Divining, Masking, Shielding

Bull

the Final Denver Mission - A Done Deal - has some guidelines for him ... they are as follows

use the Western Dragon, modified as a Great Dragon (SR4 , p.297).
Assume that Ghostwalker has any unlisted relevant skills at rating 5.
Further assume that he has Analyze Truth, Deflection, Armor, and Astral Armor spells
all quickened at Force 24 with 24 hits.


or you could use the Template for Lofwyr in Street legends and modify appropriatly

Perfect - thank you very much Bull!

Yeah, pretty much that Got to the local gaming store, bought two boxes of dice, 45 dice each box, and the lady behind the counter just said: "Ah, so you're going to play Shadowrun?" In my defense, I was dice-shopping for me and two of my friends.

That's funny, one of the first fights I picked in D&D after playing SR4 nearly ended with the death of my character in the first few turns. Bad, very bad tactics. But that happened in SR as well. It may be more of a video gaming attitude, yeah.
Enough Off-topic already

Ghostwalker seems to me as so much off the scale, players shouldn't just not attack him, but rather avoid him like the plague. If he turns up anywhere near you, you've done something terribly wrong. As it says... "Never deal with a dragon."
I like him having some kind of stats, though. I particularly dislike "no, cannot kill anyway, too powerful"-handwaving. It should be true in most cases - but in the end, a lot of things can be killed.
Of course, a great dragon can know a lot of possible fights and threats beforehand, with those Divining dice pools...

Seriously, when they kick in the door to finally take Ghost Walker down, they should find nothing but an empty room and a video presentation of how the chili they had last night was made from their parents.
The immortals are just that. Immortal. They've been around for thousands of years. Many of them having blood fueds with other immortals. And they are still here. They are here because they are not the "let him live with his humiliation" or "oh don't bother with him, he's not a threat", or, "I'll tell you my entire plan, then leave you to my inescapable torture device for the last hours of your life", type bad guys. They are inhumanly smart, and pay attention to details.

The greats are better at the same game Xanatos was only "good" at.

Adrian Veits "I did it 20 minutes ago"

My abiding Ghostwalker memory is back while running through Year of the Comet, a PC sniper shot GW (he was in human form) witha apds loaded Barrett naturally it bounced and the runner stood up, apologized and ordered the pc team to stand down. They did, GW left it at that. The player still wheels this out as her most embarressing SR moment

The abiding thing about GW is that he should be the man where spirits are concerned, he was in Earthdawn, he is now. If only we knew where he'd gone...

My bet is he's gone to fetch Dunk and the missus (the spirit of his mate, pre ED was killed by the Therens). I figure she's the core of the Denver spirit hence the rebuilding obsession.

So, for curiosity's sake, an especially for those who put Ghostwalker between Hestaby and Lofwyr in terms of magical oomph...

Who are the top five dragons in terms of spellcasting power?

Also, which are the top five in terms of conjuration?

Your personal belief, and in order if possible. I'm suddenly terribly curious.