Do higher grades of cyberware also mean that the associated permits are more costly? I ask this because even though you might have a betaware Smartlink, you're still getting the same game effects as a standard or alphaware Smartlink (it's just that you can implant more stuff into your body).

Also, for purposes of a cost of a permit, would it be appropriate to use "to possess", or "to possess and transport"?

For your reference, look to page 273 of SR3. (Note: I have the seventh reprinted version)

Thanks in advance for your time.

The rules for permits are mindboggling. Simply mindboggling. Much like the policy of having a single Concealability that works just as well for MAD scanners as it does visual checks as it does pat-downs as it does... everything else. I like abstract rules, but yeesh... these are two of the worst.

But yes, because all permits are based upon the cost of the item, it costs more to have a permit for higher grades of implants. What's even more silly is that if you get it used, your permit costs half as much, too.

Yes, definatly two very broken rules.

I can kinda, sorta see Alphaware or Deltaware permits costing a bit more... it's really high grade stuff. I see it a comparable to getting a permit for, say, an AR-15 versus getting a permit for an AR-15 with full auto or something like that. (and before i get bombarded, i know that full auto is illegal, etc, etc. It's just an analogy.) To get higher gun licenses for more lethal stuff you gotta pay AND have a legitimate reason, so why couldn't it be the same for cyberware?

Just a thought.

That analogy doesn't really work for firearms at all. AFAIK, getting a permit for $12,500 ultra-light hi-tech bolt-action mid-caliber rifle is every bit as easy as getting a permit for a $500 heavy crappy one.

Going from semi-auto to full-auto is more akin to going from Reaction Enhancers to Wired Reflexes. Going from 5.56 to 12.7 is more akin to switching from MBW-1 to MBW-4. Going from Standard to Alpha is more like going from Colt to H&K.

And from Standard to Delta, Colt King Cobra to Kohr Combat Magnum?

Well then, how would you guys do permits then? Base it on the Legality Rating, with modifiers for alpha/beta/deltaware, and base Availability 12/28days for characters without a SIN and Availability 6/14days for characters with SINs? That sounds fair to me. I also think permits should be cheaper; the main bar for getting permits should be the time and the Availability, not the cost.

In our group we generally don't have permits done up. Often it is too much hassle to come up with a cover story as to why you'd need it. *shrug* But if it came up i'd have the permit cost based on normal cyberware list price. Ignore "used" modifier, and only +10%/20%/30% increase in price, time, and avail. for alpha/beta/delta. The extra time represents extra effort, due to complexity and compactness of the gear, to verify the cyberware truely is what the possesor claims it to be.

To be permitted you definately need a physical inspection, and the one doing the inspection for certification will have an extremely high probability of spotting other cyber that needs a permit. So you want to slip past with other illegal stuff, or permit one type of cyber as being something else, you better have Big Bags Of Money™ handy to grease your way through.

EDIT: Of course you'd need a "real" SIN, the normal redtape for obtaining a counterfeit SIN being a separate process if you must go that way.

It's impossible to get a permit without a SIN, as the permit is attached to a SIN. You have to have one, fake or not.

How about just follow the current rules but the cost of the permit is based on the base cost of the ware regardless of what grade it actually is.

Because, honestly, it doesn't make sense. Permits should be based primarily off of legality codes, as a piece of 'ware's legality code, not its market price, is the judge of how legally restricted something is supposed to be. [EDIT]For instance, a level 2 VCR has a Legality Code of 6P-N, making it Class A cyberware for legal purposes. However, as it stands a permit for that VCR costs six times as much as code 3P-R Class C cyberware retractable handblades, despite the fact that they are arguably more illegal (have stiffer penalties for carrying without a permit.)[/EDIT]

Plus permits are too damn expensive; IMO everyone with a "valid" SIN should have permits for every bit of 'ware they own, but for many this is prohibitavly expensive. The ability to carry all these weapons and upgrades around legally should be balanced by the fact that Lone Star knows who you are, has a record on you, and, if you have a whole lot of powerful stuff, will be keeping a closer eye on you than Random Q. Runner living in the shadows with lots of undocumented and unknown 'ware.

If it were me I'd say permits should cost one-tenth of the relevant fine, plus 100% for every year or part of a year of jail time. Alphaware would cost an extra 10%, betaware 25%, and Deltaware 50%. Ex: permits for hand blades would cost 1500 + 1500*3 = 6000 ; betaware blades would cost 7500 . The Availability would be 6/14days for Possession, 8/21days for Transport, 10/28 days for Threat, etc.

I'd definatly go with a cost based on legality and class. Would make LOADS more sense. How to actually calculate the cost... well, I don't know. I wouldn't charge extra for different quality, though. Although, it might factor into the legality number itself. I mean, a cop is more likely to notice a wizbang streamlined super-limb than one that essentially does the same thing but is old and used.

We continue with the abstractness of the rule, we just base our Permit prices on something other than the gear itself. Instead, we use their Legality code, and base the Permit cost on the Possession fine.

So if you want to get a permit to carry, say, an Ares Predator, you'd have to get a Legality E license for 500 nuyen. Once you have it, though, you're free to own any Legality E item as long as it had the little P in its code. Concealed licenses cost twice as much. That's just how we do it. Dunno how close it is to reality, but it works for us and avoids a lot of weirdness that the core rules do on the subject.

With Concealability, we assume all Concealability ratings are for visual Procedures checks. Anything that can fully and comfortably be put into a pocket, placed in a holster completetly inside a jacket, or so on and so forth gets the same +50% Concealment bonus that a traditional Long Coat provides. MAD scanners pick up any metallic items on a scan as long as it gets one success against a TN of 4. Extra successes allow it (or its operator) to determine what the item is, much like a cyberware scanner. Cermanic Components on a firearm reduce the number of successes needed to detect it; if not enough successes are made, it's dismissed.

Again, that's just how we do it.

Wow, 500 to carry a Class E firearm? That's pretty steep, considering the fine is the same amount. Or are permits these days usually the same price as the fine for carrying wothout a permit?

For the evil GM out there. You can also rule that the Star or EK makes regular rounds to check on permit holders' stories. If you are not working where you said that you were, living at that abandoned building, etc. then you are put on a very short list of known criminals - as you lied to obtain a permit - and hunted down. Granted this takes a lot of use out of the permits but hey, I said that this is for the evil GM.



OR

Use the rules for a fake SIN and modify them slightly to fit a fake permit. If it is a dealer who sells stuff on the side, then he won't look real hard. If it is a more reputable dealer, then perhaps an opposed test is needed.

My 2.

All you ever wanted to know about state-to-state concealed carry laws but were afraid to ask. Washington state appears to be $60 (conceal carry penalty max $250 without licence). In NYC, for example, it could be upwards of $300 (conceal carry penalty unknown without licence).

Permit prices blow anyway. Why should I need to pay 50 grand for a permit for a move by wire system? That's way more than it costs the government to do the paperwork.

Hmmm . . .

The working rule that I came up with (at least for cyberware/bioware) was to always use the base (standard) price for calculating the cost of the permit, since the permit's really for the capability to legally use, say, a VCR 3. It doesn't really matter if it's standard or delta; one may be rarer than the other, but the net result is that you still have a VCR 3.

On the other hand, I have yet to figure out whether to use the 5% (to possess) or 10% (to possess and transport). Ick.

As far as guns go, it seems that the permit per firearm thing is more about registering each individual firearm with the authorities. Again, I'd only use the base price for the permit, though certain mods like smartlinks may require a permit for those, too.

A mess, don't you agree?