I was wondering of the opinions of my fellow Dumpshockers if the archtype "Physical Master" was too powerful/unbalancing, you can check it out here.

Munchkin.

Yes and Yes.

I thought so, I wonder why people make those (Munchkiny) things.

The costs...my ghod, the power costs...

I know, 1 Power point for 10 levels of Deep Breathing, that's five minutes additinal holding time for 1 point...crazy.

Who on earth put something that amazingly unbalanced together? And can i shake his hand?

If it's for GM use, it's just a lame excuse to get +50% the abilities you'd normally get. If it's for player use, well, good luck getting that through any sane GM.

A beginning Physical Master could also take 9 levels of Enhanced Velocity and 4 levels of Multiple Strike for 1.3 PPs, for a Running Multiplier of 12 and the ability to ignore all Multiple Enemies In Melee modifiers.

Hmm... It is magic priority A, at least.

I'm trying to think of a simple fix that would make this usable. And I can't. Possibly a flat +1 power point or a caveat that the price reductions are based off of the total power cost (ie, if you buy 4 levels of Improved Ability (stealth), it'd cost you .75 points (as it's a 1 point power at that point).

The only reason I could see letting this into a game is if, for some reason, none of the PCs ever play physical adepts (are there games like that? Never been in one...).

If you allowed that monstrosity into a game, everyone would play a physical adept.

Well, ideally, if no one was playing a physical adept and just one or two PCs were coming in and you allowed it, the effect wouldn't be that great.

Besides, I'd personally never allow it since I've never had a lack of phys ads

A "fix" might be that Priority A "Physical Masters" automatically learn powers as if by a geas, but don't have to select a geas to do so, but cannot take a geas to lower the cost further (but they can take them to offset Magic Loss). It's the equivalence of alpha-grade implants for sammies at the cost of +5 Build Points instead of one or more geasa.

I'd have to agree with other people that the physical master is too powerful. I also agree that physads should be able to pump more (or less) into their phyad powers at chargen. Sphynx's system is good, but rules for Physad 'Lights' and 'Heavies' for the priorities system would be good too. IE: What could a Magic priority C character get?

Magic 1, Astral Perception, and access to Aura Reading and Enchanting. Just like the Astral Sight SURGE option.

most of the powers are insane, but i like Mobile Efficiency. i'd probably rename it to something a bit less clunky, though. Mobility, maybe, if i could call it that without being burned at the stake by anti-d20 fans.

That's right up there with true drakes and magically active awakened whales.

I think mobile efficiency would be better re-hashed as a multi-level power at 0.5/level, each level reducing TN penalties from movement by 1. Seem fair?

[edit] Enhanced velocity should probably cost 1.5 power points per level. A sammie needs to buy 2*1-essence kid-stealth cyberlegs to get a similar bonus, equating roughly to 2 power points, but he gets other bonuses too so I reduced it to 1.5/level. Comments welcome. [/edit]

I'd say that's another 0.25 point per level power, myself. 0.5 Power Points is a lot. It's the equivalence of a Smartlink-2, cutting blind fighting penalties in half, or the ability to pull out and ready a pair of spiked maces as a free action.

I wonder how he'd fare against the Path-of-Kings Wheelmage?

+4 dice in every spell catagory.
May Conjure any Spirit.
+1 Die when dispelling.
1+ Die to all spells in the province of Meath.

He'd whip his ass, largely because the wheelmage must be an NPC. As no NPC is ever as crafty as a PC, the munchkin PC with the Physical Master character would trounce the NPC wheelmage.

Red Sun, it really looks like you just want a way to make adepts alot more powerful. I recommend if you're looking for some min-max potential for an Adept that you do Resources A and Magic B (or equivalent BP levels). That'll let you get +4 to an attribute (Muscle Toner/Muscle Aug), Synaptic Accelerator, Boosted Reflexes-1, and some spare change in other augmentations for 2 Magic Points. Counting how much the same thing would cost in Adept Power Points (4+ for Attributes, 3 for Reflexes-2) you can easily get a good 8 Power Points in powers for 2 Magic, leaving you 4 Power Points to split amongst Adept Powers. It's actually alot more powerful than the Physical Master, but would require 50+ BP instead of 30. However, since you'll have the cash, you can start with an un-bonded weapon focus, so well worth the extra BPs.

Sphynx

Another way to make it possible for the adept to get more Power points at char. creation.

Make it possible to buy additional points at char gen with a cost of 100.000 a piece (max 4 extra) we are not talking about initiation "just" extra power points.

I tried this with at GM, and it looked to work alright, just like the mage being able to buy additional spell points. The char will be forced to have less in other categories since they have to cough up with the cash.

By the way I like the idea of a 30 BP adept, with a "free" Astral perception power a char gen.

wtf is wrong with immortal warrior gods?

So can anyone come up with a Magic Priority A adept-type that's more powerful than a PhysAd but on less munchkin crack than this?

I like the previously stated idea of giving a priority A adept astral perception for free. Seems balanced to me, at least.

Meh. Balanced, maybe, but it decides a direction for the character, which is a no-no for a reason. Perhaps just give them the extra 2 points that a normal adept would spend on Astral Percep?

2 points that you can spend on anything is waaaaaaay more powerful than just giving astral perception. If you really want to give adepts more powerful options, try the optional BP system from Sphynx's site. I'd (maybe) give +1 power point or astral perception (reduced cost, doesn't count as a power for this purpose), player's choice, for priority A.

Astral perception has a lot of uses, and I don't think 99% of adepts out there couldn't find in-character uses for it. It's not really dictating a direction for the character.

+1 pp for priority A? you can keep it. not worth the price.

In a system that used Priority instead of BP, I'd personally give Perception AND Projection for the Priority A. As my BP system shows, the 2 are worth aproximately 5 points together, that'd count at about a level of Priority. And it's not outside the realm of Adept believability. I've met Yoga Masters who claim they can do both, to imagine a person who balances his mind and body (kinda Adept-like theme) it's doable.

Sphynx

Oh, interesting note. Ask those online who've played in my games with this BP system. I've yet to see an Adept who didn't want Perception and Projection. They all seem to take 6 power points and those 2 'add-ons' when given an option.

Sphynx

I agree. +1 pp is NOT worth 600,000 Nuyen, 3 Attribute Points, 10 Skill Points, or the difference between an Aspected and Full Magician. I'm not even sure if +2 is. +2.5?

Not at all Moon Hawk, although it may 'suggest' that, it doesn't 'mean' it. What it means, IMHO, is that alot of Adepts would like those abilities. I mean, hell. What's the difference between a Shamanic Aspected and a Full Shaman? Projection and fuller spell/spirit list for +5 BP.

If 5 BP can give an Aspected type Projection, you'd think there wouldn't be any Aspected Mages in the BP system. (Priority system is a different story, since resources are a huge factor in that system). But that's not the case now, is it?

Sphynx

Sphynx, you're comparing adding perception and projection to just projection. I'll totally agree that adding projection onto a character that already has perception is worth 5BP. That's probably a bit steep, even. I think adding both of them for only 5BP is a really, REALLY good deal, and that's why all of your characters do it.
If you're comparing it to aspected spellcasters, then have it cost 5BP, they get projction, and have to spend 2 of their initial 6 on getting perception for themselves. True, a full shaman get's a little more than this, in the form of greater spell selection, but also has the penalty of getting 10 less force points than the aspected spellcaster. The "priority A" physical adept has neither this advantage nor this disadvantage, and I think you're a lot closer to balanced.

Clockwork, that sort of "acid test" does NOT apply to core mechanics, it only applies to adding house rules. If you house-rule a new option and it is insane/idiotic to either take or pass up this new option for all characters, it is probably not balanced.
I fully agree with you that that other game and it's parent company trying to apply that test to every aspect of the game is wholly idiotic. It still makes a good sanity check for house-rules, though.

I think it's more the Magic Priority B characters are underpowered when compared to their Magic Priority A brethern (rather then Magic A being over powered).

Sorcerer Aspected magicians are pretty close to what I see as being balanced, and outside of Adepts, are the only 'aspected' mages I've seen a player make.

Conjuring Adepts can be okay if their spell point usage is house ruled to let them either start with an Ally spirit or initiate (and taking Invoking or simular) off of those points (I'd prefer Ally spirit over initiation). The price for starting spirits (especially Shamanic) is utterly ridiculous when compared to starting spells.

However, the Shamanist Aspected or the Elemental Aspected mages are seriously gimped, especially when compared to what a Full mage can do? In the BP system it's worse; for five points they can suddenly cast spells from five times as many catagories and summon either three or five more additional types, and they get projecting too.

For an adept, I'd have little problem if they wanted astral perception and projection at priority A... I'd be a little leery of additional power points myself though.

Starting with an ally spirit or initiation isn't a house rule. It's in the Shadowrun Companion. Most people prefer to ignore it though.

Ya sure? Looking for it now... not seeing it. Could ya pass along the page number? If it's there I'd like to use to to beat- I mean convince, some of the more... rule bound members of my group.

EDIT: Found it. Thanks ACL. Yer right very odd.

Don't have it handy, but look under the Build Point rules under Resources. Odd place to put it, I know.

it's not "if everyone takes it, it's overbalanced". it's "if everyone has to take it in order to be an effective character within their type, it might be overbalanced barring mitigating circumstances". in sphynx's case, i can think of plenty of adept characters who are good at what they do, and wouldn't benefit greatly from perception and projection--ergo, perception and projection, while certainly being beneficial features, are not absolutely necessary to being an effective adept.

as far as mitigating cirucmstances, the best example i can come up with off the top of my head is sorcery and conjuring for full mages. in order to be an effective full mage, you need both of those skills--but since using those skills is basically the point of being a full mage to begin with, it's not overbalanced.

To harken back to a previously asked question, How to make a special priority A physad: In my games, there are two somatic traditions, the physical and mental, with seperate powers (but some overlap). One can be a physad or a mentat, and take any powers which are offered by that path. I'm thinking about allowing a priority A adept who can use both physical and mental powers...

I agree that several aspected magician types are gimped (although I'd still take being a Spider or Gargoyle Shamanist than a Psionicist)

It would be nice to see a type of aspected magician who specialized entirely in astral work, perhaps only able to cast spells while Astral. An Astralist?

that'd be interesting. i'd make it so that they can only cast on astral or dual targets, and only while astral themselves. conjuring's a bit tougher, since you technically can't even conjure while perceiving (unless you're up against a shedim, apparently).

I have an Astral Way Adept for 30BPs, or priority A. It works similar to the Magician's Way adept in that you 'have' to buy Astral Perception and Astral Projection to begin with (2 points each) and can use the rest of the points for regular adept powers. They can of course learn and use any metamagics associated with perception or projection.

Building a priority 4 phys ad:

First I think you ought to be able to do it - being a physical adept is usually the core of a character's conception, which takes it outside the realms of 6 magic points and 3 priorities.

Adding extra magic points seems like the obvious way to do it (as several people have said) - it represents a simple expansion in power without bending the character in a specific direction - and it's the kind of thing they'd try to do with karma straight out of the gate.

How many extra power points for one extra priority:

Increases in priority for skills and stats follow a basically linear progression, increases from higher resource and magic priority are geometric.

An extra 1.5 points would seem fair if you wanted a linear increase and to keep priority A adepts rare, an extra 2 points would represent a geometric, but not silly increase - and I'd probably have a preference for that...

The reduced costs are frightening and ridiculous.