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tim
I was just talking with my DM a little while ago about some of the stuff out of Augmentation, and I remembered having seen something about getting Synaptic Boosters through Genetic Heritage. Is that, by RAW, legal? Or is this one of the more grey areas where its just CAN be taken that way, but probably is best not done?
TheOOB
Genetic heritage allows you to get Genewear, Synaptic Boosters is Bioware, so no you can't do that.
Yerameyahu
Even if you interpret it differently (and Synaptics are beyond even the normal 'animal stuff'), yes, it's basically the latter: best not done. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 31 2012, 04:12 PM) *
Genetic heritage allows you to get Genewear, Synaptic Boosters is Bioware, so no you can't do that.


Transgenics allows Bioware equivalents, right in the rules.
That said, Tread Lightly... I would allow a level 1 Synaptic Booster (There are animals with 2 Natural Passes, after all) with Genetic Heritage, but nothing higher. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
AFAIK, it's in the rules *under* the heading Animal Features, though. While animals might have 2 passes, they don't have Synaptic Boosters. nyahnyah.gif I think most people would be more comfortable allowing it for the more obviously animal bioware: chameleon skin, hand webbing, gills, quills, etc.

Either way, it's a messy little rule.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 31 2012, 04:56 PM) *
AFAIK, it's in the rules *under* the heading Animal Features, though. While animals might have 2 passes, they don't have Synaptic Boosters. nyahnyah.gif I think most people would be more comfortable allowing it for the more obviously animal bioware: chameleon skin, hand webbing, gills, quills, etc.

Either way, it's a messy little rule.


They may not have synaptic boosters, but you can argue the Boosters can apply in that circumstance, because they mimic the second pass of the animal. Remeber, you are not getting actual boosters here, though they have the same effect; It is a genetic tweak.

But it can Definitely cause issues. I don't worry too much about it, though. It has yet to be abused at the table. *shrug* smile.gif
snowRaven
Yeah, the 'trick' with Genetic Heritage is that you're not getting genetic bioware, you're getting genetic mods that give the same bonus...

No one has yet attempted it at my table either, but I might allow a level 1.
Glyph
Remember that you will never be able to get it at alphaware or higher, since geneware doesn't have grades. Although there is a line in Augmentation about a lot of bioware mods being available as geneware at the same cost/Essence, I would put attempting to get bioware-as-geneware with genetic heritage as something it wouldn't be a good idea to attempt, unless it is a high-powered, cheesy campaign.
Makki
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 1 2012, 12:49 AM) *
Transgenics allows Bioware equivalents, right in the rules.
That said, Tread Lightly... I would allow a level 1 Synaptic Booster (There are animals with 2 Natural Passes, after all) with Genetic Heritage, but nothing higher. smile.gif


this.
Manunancy
there's also a little timing problem : the genemod synpatic booster is as far as I know a relatively recent development in Shadowrun, and a fairly expensive one. Which means the PC is young and comes from a fairly affluent family. Why such a character would turn to the shadows rather than enjoying daddy's money and/or being in high school is a question that the player asking for it need to answer. With as little cheese as possible in the answer.

And I wouldn't expect a character in his late teens/early twenties to be very skilled except at one or two 'signature' skills.
phlapjack77
There's always the escaped-lab-experiment scenario to fall back on too...
Shortstraw
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 1 2012, 04:43 PM) *
there's also a little timing problem : the genemod synpatic booster is as far as I know a relatively recent development in Shadowrun, and a fairly expensive one. Which means the PC is young and comes from a fairly affluent family. Why such a character would turn to the shadows rather than enjoying daddy's money and/or being in high school is a question that the player asking for it need to answer. With as little cheese as possible in the answer.

And I wouldn't expect a character in his late teens/early twenties to be very skilled except at one or two 'signature' skills.

Daddy was a wealthy business man whose company was ruthlessly crushed because a AA/AAA didn't like the competition in a particular market and in a depression he suicides so the son turns to the shadows for money and, perhaps one day, revenge.
Eratosthenes
Genetic Heritage = 10 BP
Synaptic Boosters 2 = 160,000 creds = 32 BP

So any character attempting to take Genetic Heritage + Synaptic Boosters 2 is basically trying to get 22 free BP.

Nevermind taking Restricted Gear + Genetic Heritage + Synaptic Boosters 3...
Yerameyahu
On the plus side, it's using up some Essence (I'd argue irretrievably), as well as their relatively precious PQ allotment. But these hardly compensate for something like *that*, yeah. smile.gif
Relecs
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 1 2012, 05:44 AM) *
Genetic Heritage = 10 BP
Synaptic Boosters 2 = 160,000 creds = 32 BP

So any character attempting to take Genetic Heritage + Synaptic Boosters 2 is basically trying to get 22 free BP.

Nevermind taking Restricted Gear + Genetic Heritage + Synaptic Boosters 3...


On the other hand if taken at rating 1 they would only be getting 6 free build points (at the cost of some irretrievable essence) which I would argue is far from being overpowered. That said I have never used this nor run a game in which it was used. If however a player breached the subject with me I think I would allow it at rating 1, considering it would only be 6 free build points I might even allow it at a higher grade of bioware but I don`t think I would allow them to upgrade it with bioware (it would have to be with more geneware) if at all.

Just my thoughts anyways

Relecs
Emperor Tippy
I'd let the player do it, even with Synaptic Boosters 3 but I would say that the gene mods need a bit of tweaking every so often and make them pay for treatment every six months or so at the cost of 60K each time for the next 2 years to get everything fixed and stabilized. They get to start the game with it, get it essence free and with no real way to detect it, and get to pay in installments (possibly half off) but they don't get 240K in better than deltra grade free gear. Probably actually make them invest 30-60K in character generation to cover the first period of the treatments. The player better make sure that he takes a really good medical contact as well, something like that probably requires a near delta grade medical facility.

That solves some of the balance issues and provides several plot hooks to use. Along with probably giving the entire group a potential contact to get the nice ware through once they can afford it.
Yerameyahu
Genetic Heritage mods aren't essence free; that's a serious house change. smile.gif This sounds more like In Debtů 'Loaner Implant'?
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2012, 05:55 PM) *
Genetic Heritage mods aren't essence free; that's a serious house change. smile.gif

That's debatable. The genetic mod is natural for that individual. In point of fact it's an inherited trait.

An individual is born with 6 Essence, regardless of the genetic tinkering done before hand.
Yerameyahu
It's debatable in that people have made that claim, sure. But that's not what the quality says. It says they start play with a genetic mod, for free. Anything else is speculation and house rules; it's especially unlikely that they wouldn't have mentioned 'for no Essence cost'. It's a particularly bad idea to try and apply science and logic to SR. biggrin.gif

Given that you're suggesting a slew of other house rules (not a dirty word), it's not really an important issue anyway.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2012, 06:15 PM) *
It's debatable in that people have made that claim, sure. But that's not what the quality says. It says they start play with a genetic mod, for free. Anything else is speculation and house rules; it's especially unlikely that they wouldn't have mentioned 'for no Essence cost'. It's a particularly bad idea to try and apply science and logic to SR. biggrin.gif

Given that you're suggesting a slew of other house rules (not a dirty word), it's not really an important issue anyway.

True. It says that it is free though, and if it has a cost then it wouldn't be free. That means no essence cost grinbig.gif
Yerameyahu
Upside-down big-smile indeed! My sentiments exactly, hehe.

Again, it's certainly an argument that people have made before. But it's not one that's going to convince anyone who didn't already agree. So… house rule territory. smile.gif As this thread discusses, the whole Quality is a bit of a mess, so the GM's already well involved.
Glyph
If the GM allowed me to get synaptic booster: 3 with no Essence cost and a deferred payment plan, every augmented character I made would have genetic heritage.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 1 2012, 06:30 PM) *
If the GM allowed me to get synaptic booster: 3 with no Essence cost and a deferred payment plan, every augmented character I made would have genetic heritage.


Indeed... As it is, even at 1.5 Essence and no money, it ain't all bad.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ Apr 2 2012, 12:13 AM) *
That's debatable. The genetic mod is natural for that individual. In point of fact it's an inherited trait.

An individual is born with 6 Essence, regardless of the genetic tinkering done before hand.


Not all individuals...
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ Apr 1 2012, 10:13 PM) *
That's debatable. The genetic mod is natural for that individual. In point of fact it's an inherited trait.

An individual is born with 6 Essence, regardless of the genetic tinkering done before hand.

If that's the case, why doesn't genecrafted give you no essence loss genetic modifications? After all, the special effect of that is you were genetically modified with the genetic enhancements before you were born. At best, it gives you only a 20 percent discount on essence costs (if that).
Shortstraw
Heritage implies natural crafted implies artificial not quite the same thing.

Edit: Also note after birth = full price > in utero = discount > before conception = profits!

Edit 2: Please not that this does not necessarily mean I condone this sort of shenanigan.
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Apr 2 2012, 11:30 AM) *
Heritage implies natural crafted implies artificial not quite the same thing.

Edit: Also note after birth = full price > in utero = discount > before conception = profits!

Edit 2: Please not that this does not necessarily mean I condone this sort of shenanigan.

Yeah you got me, I was just being pedantic. Apparently in the SR universe, essence begins at conception.

An argument that inherited gene mods don't cost essence for Warforms which explicitly can breed and pass on positive genetic modifications (Running Wild 27-28). It is weird however that the genetic modifications (even ones that originated from another species) don't cost essence normally for either Chimerics or Warforms so it's not a silver bullet either way.
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