Now i have ignored the Lich thread before but i have a PC who is very interested in the concept.
Whatever my fellow fraggers can help me with please do. example links what ever you can dig up.

A ghoul hermetic magician. What's so difficult about that?

Well, aside from the lameness factor of creating a lich, or a jedi, or anything else along those lines, of course.

There are two things that might fit. Both are actually spirits. One is much more probable as a PC psychology than the other.

1) free zombie
2) shedim, not near as sensible

In either case, it's probably not a good idea unless you really trust the player and use its weaknesses as much as you test the weaknesses of every other PC. I still wouldn't go with the shedim no matter how good the player is.

From what I know about Liches, they are once-normal wizards who go through a great deal of trouble to become undead/immortal, sacrificing their sanity and humanity for an indefinite lifespan with which to study magic.


Sounds like Hidden Life. I'd say he has to go through a great deal of hassle to find/create a free spirit of a certain unique type, bind it, order it to use hidden life on him, and then tell it to go live happily ever after in its metaplane.

The mental flaws will make the character twisted and lich-like, possibly accompanied by some creepy magical ones like an aura that withers plant life or whatever. Maybe his flesh starts rotting. Who knows?

The D&D-type Lich is actually what you'd get if a metahuman used the Hidden Life power itself. It at least used to be (back in 2nd Ed) so that the Lich hid his life away in a "phylactery", and destroying that would make the Lich vulnerable.

The Hidden Life method suggested by Zazen is far more practical in SR, however. If you want to get all fancy, there could be a metamagic to bind the spirit into a material form -- a gem or amulet, specifically.

There's no way any of those suggestions should be allowed as a starting character, though, unless you give all of the players some serious pumping-up. If he's going with a starting character, a ghoul mage is more than enough to get that lich "flavor" going. He could then focus on creating an ally spirit and making a deal with it in order to let it go free (and maybe discover/create some ritual that insures it gets Hidden Life when you do so), but that should be a long term in-game in-character goal. Not a character creation thing, as it's way too powerful right out of the box.

Completely agreed. I don't want to go into comparing SR characters advancement through Karma and d20 Levels once again, but keep in mind that, even in D&D 3rd Ed, becoming a Lich requires you to be at least 11th level in a spellcasting class and automatically raises your ECL by 2. The Hidden Life method of getting lichified will actually provide bonuses far greater than what D&D lichdom grants, though possibly with greater negative side effects as well.

Yes, the bonuses offered by a spirit using its hidden life power on a character are immense. Regeneration? Immunity to Dammn-Near everything? +(Spirit Force) to all attributes?

Note the lack of qualifiers on the attributes bit. A force 4 spirit with spirit energy 1 (70% chance to bond even from just the 3 dice available to mundanes) would give +4 to Body, Quickness, Strength, Charisma, Intelligence, Willpower, Reaction, Essence, and Magic. So now you have a metahuman walking around with immunity to normal weapons based on his essence (of 10) and shrugging-off Medium-Railgun hits without too much troubble.

I nifty mechanic I just thought up would require two things: a special focus bound to the would-be lich, and a metamagic allowing a macician to use hidden life on said focus with his or her own astral form. As an abstract, the magician would create the focus, bind it, astrally project, and then seal his/her life in the focus. They can then survive in a state of imutability as long as the focus exists. This is very sketchy on details (for example, what the lich gets besides immunity to age, how to destroy the focus, what the focus has to be made of, how much it costs in nuyen and karma for bonding, how to aquire the metamagic etc.)

Random thoughts; the idea of trapping a spirit in a specially made focus was suggested in MitS, although keeping a metahuman's astral form alive while separate from the body would require something different I expect. Learn the focus formula and some special metamagic via astral quest (whatever level you deem appropriate), make it and bond it as if it were a Force 6 (or whatever the PC's Essence is) Power focus.

Benefits: immunity to age, poisons, and pathogens. Doesn't die or go unconscious at a Deadly wound (Physical or Stun), but still suffers other penalties. [I don't know what to do if the body is destroyed completely]

Penalties: cannot astrally project, but Astral Perception still functions. Subject's aura looks distinctly different although this can be masked. And of course, the benefits and penalties end if the special focus is destroyed.

Why not just become a vampire? Granted there are some drawbacks to it, but its got to be easier than the free spirit route I would think.

Nosferatu are cooler (and tougher) than Vampires.

I think a Grande Zombie is a more reasonable form of Lich though. They are actually undead for one thing. Of course the player's mind is long gone and they're entirely controlled by some angry spirit, but hey that's life.

I would deal with it as a spinoff of the Cybermancy ritual, granting the victim, er subject, immunity to age, poisons, and pathogens, as well as maybe some boost to mental attributes (+2 cha, int, wil), and focused concentration. Now the down side, he requires "juice" just like a cyberzombie, minus to physical attributes (-2 str, bod, and qui) as well as a virtual 0 essence, but magic stays the same + andy subsuquint initations. In other words the character is really dead, but is sustaining himself with alchemy and magic. The character is dual natured and shows up as corrupted like a cyber zombie. He also becomes a target for any free spirits in the area, gaining spirit bane(free) at the highest level. Upkeep costs 20,000 =Y= a month for the Juice, unless he wishes to make it himself, but then he has to have the formula, an alchemy lab, and plenty of time.

-The Eggman
-Coo Coo Ca Choo

indeed. the basis of cybermancy, after all, is tying the soul to the body long after they would have naturally seperated. the fact that you can stuff ungodly amounts of 'ware into the body is a side effect.

If your friend really wants to play a lich, here's what you can do. Tell him to buy a copy of the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook and Monster Manual. Tell him to play D&D if he wants to play a lich. Shadowrun doesn't work like that. Even the undead aren't really undead, in Shadowrun.

except for the occasional shambling mass of dead people.

Yeah, but even Shedim aren't undead. They're spirits. There really aren't any true undead in Shadowrun. If you're dead, you're dead. Something else can come along and puppet your body, but it's not some undead version of you.

Vampires have to hit 0 Essence before they become vampires. If your Essence hits 0, you're dead. Thus vampires are undead.

There is flavor text in several books outright stating that vampires and others are living beings afflicted with the human-metahuman vampiric virus. I even think that the death at zero Essence is described is "death-like" for such purposes.

I'd say make the fellow initate a few times then find a sprit with hidden life then go on a astral quest to find said sprits true name and then force it to use it's power on you permanantly.
I think this fulfills the SR rules in the way your player wants, while(sort of) following the tenant layed down the said other game that he is clearly wanting to play .

I have to agree with Wireknight. I really don't see Lich's having any real place in Shadowrun. Not with the way they have decided to run the "undead".

i have to admit some mild curiosity--what 'lich threads' are there, that Platinum had been ignoring until now?

One way to do something similar, without as many bonuses, is to create a metamagic which allows the magician to hide his life force in an object, just as a spirit would. Give the magician Regeneration and that's it. The object receives armor equal to the magician's Initiate Grade. Similar to the Hidden Life power, though, this means that the magician cannot die. If his regeneration fails, he still lives. Either as an astral entity, or animating the dead body - as a 'true' undead (use attribute degradation tables for Shedim for aging of body). This state would most likely infer a few mental flaws on the character... not to mention all the spells he or she would eventually need to keep the body functioning as a vessel. If a character without a body is disrupted, he simply returns eventually - just as a spirit would. The only other way to 'kill' the character would be to reduce magic to 0 and make him a mundane - at best he'll remain as a ghost then, when the magic dissipates. Otherwise, he just dies (or becomes 'normal')

Powerful, yes. I'd put some serious drain on the ritual to hide your life (requiring either the risk to die, or killing another using Sacrificing, to complete the ritual). Also, the object used must be enchanted as a Foci of sorts, rating equal to the magician's Essence, maybe? Created similar to a thesis, to sum up the magician's life and knowledge, and requiring some rare exotic materials, of course. Drawbacks would be a weird-ass looking aura, and maybe an astral link to your hidden life object.

Well about a 3=4 months ago, I noticed the thread and ignored it cause i thought it was stupid and should stick with D&D. So I was just looking here for a good way to have them introduced, and if the PC had a decent way that I thought was good I would allow it...but they are playing in character to figure the shit out.