I have tried this before and the general reception wasn't that great, but masochism is fun...
The reasons I am doing this are simple, for one i wanted to put an end to the never ending race of recoilcompensation, where only few guns come out on top and are therefore used by almost everybody.
Secondly i wanted to give shotguns more meaning as they are awesome, but do not really live up to their potential, as they should.
The third part largely revolves around weapons and their damage codes, which i think in SR4 is in some way very unrealistic, however it is also the part that can be ignored, one doesn't like it.
Please consider this entire rule set as WORK IN PROGRESS, nothing is final, it is merely the attempt to refine a better rule set for shadowrun by discussing the rules i proposed here.
So, please discuss, ask, propose better solutions....
Full Version: Alternate Firearms Combat Rules for Shadowrun 4
CODE
Initiative Passes: For every available Initiative Pass a character has 1 free action. In addition to 3 simple actions or 1 simple and 1 complex action.
Ranged Combat:
Attacker rolls: Skill + Agility +/- modifiers, note net hits.
Ranged combat modifiers remain as per 20th Ann.Ed. with the following exceptions:
Image Madnification: Image Magnification halves the range modifiers
(round down)
Aimed shot: see below
Multiple Targets: does not apply for full auto, see below.
Called shots: can be used to bypass armor or inflict more damage by
targeting a vulnerable area. The dice pool penalty is determined by the size
(see below) of the targeted area.
Recoil: see below
Gyro Stabilization Harness: Bonuses have changed, see below
Dodging: Characters can only dodge, if they are aware of being shot at, which requires a observe action. players may not determine werther they or the person standing next to
them are shot at. Dodging is done with reaction. Full Dodge is done as before. note net hits.
Pointing: pointing a weapon at your enemy is intuitive and therefore is considered blind firing, which means -6 modifier.
Aiming: Aiming a weapon at your enemy, means your weapon is in a shooting position and you are aiming down your sights. this is normal shooting and requires a free action. It also limits the shooters field of view therefore causing a -2 modifier for visual
perception tests.
Taking aim: Taking aim is a complex action, where the shooter adjusts his aim to the
distance and the movement ( lead) of his target as well as adjusting his breathing. The
benefits are reduction of movement and target size/ called shot modifiers, with a
reduction of 1 per penalty per action taken, with a maximum of 2. This means a
character may spend one complex action to reduce the negative modifiers of a small (-2) fast moving (-2) target by one point each or he may spend two complex actions to
reduce those modifiers by two points each.
Recoil: One point of recoil is produced for every ten rounds or fraction therof fired with one trigger pull. If a weapon is fired without utilizing a stock the recoil is doubled.
Semi Auto fire: takes one simple action to perform.
Burst fire: firing a weapon in burst fire is a simple action.
narrow burst: a narrow burst increases the DV by a 1.5 multiplier (round
up), due to recoil narrow bursts are only possible at short ranges.
wide burst: a wide burst reduces the penalties of range or movement by 2, it also reduces the targets dodge pool by 2.
Full auto: a full auto weapon can fire 4-30 rounds per complex action to a maximum of 30 rounds per combat turn. Both maxima can be increased with the high velocity
modification by 15 rounds, this modification can be taken twice, so that maxed-out
weapons may fire 60 rounds per complex action and combat turn. Full auto fire is
always suppression fire. Attacker rolls: Agility + Skill + modifiers.
Damage is calculated as follows: (base DV + number of bullets spent) / recoil + unmodified distance modifier + meters covered.
Recoilcompensation: recoil can be compensated with a GasVent or a silencer, but not
both at the same time, which provide 1 point of compensation each.
Further compensation can be achieved with a foregrip and a bipod, which also provide 2 points of compensation each. in addition bipods provide 1 dice for the attack roll, as
they make the gun more stable . Bipods limit the shooters firing arc to 45°
Tripods provide 3 points of compensation and negate the doubled recoil penalty for
firing without stock and provide a firing arc of 90°, however their compensation cannot be combined with the compensation of the foregrip or the bipod.
Gyro Stabilization: this harness provides 2 points of compensation, negates the double
recoil penalty and cannot be combined with a bipod or tripod.
Recoil buffer: this modification dampens the backward movement of the bolt and
reduces recoil by 1 point.
Additional rules:
The further bullets travel the slower they become, to simulate this, apply + 1AP for long ranges and +2AP for extreme ranges.
Firing at small targets is more difficult and therefor implies a negative dice pool
modifier:
Small target, size of a watermelon: -2 DP modifier
Very small target, size of an apple: -4 DP modifier
Extremly small target, size of a cherry: -6 DP modifier
Concealability and Close Quarter Battle (CQB)
The larger a weapon is the harder it is to conceal but also to wield in confined spaces,
divide any positive concealment modifier of the weapon by 2 (round down) and apply
the resulting value as negative dice pool modifier.
Weapons damage codes:
Holdout pistols: DV 5, AP 0, Magazin size 10-12
DV 4, AP -2, Magazin size 11-13
Light pistols: DV 5, AP 0, Magazin size 15-17
DV 4, AP -2, Magazin size 17-20
Heavy pistols: DV 6, AP 0, Magazin size 12-15
SMGs: DV 6, AP 0, Magazin size ~25
DV 5, AP 0, Magazine size ~ 30
DV 4, AP -2, Magazine size 30-50
Carbines(SMG): DV 5, AP -2, Magazine size 30-45
DV 6, Ap -3, Magazine size 20-30
Assault Rifles: DV 5, AP -2, Magazine size 30-45
Battle Rifles: DV6, AP -3, Magazine size 20-30
Sport Rifles: DV5, AP -2, Magazine size 10
DV6, AP -3, Magazine size 10
Sniper Rifles: DV5, AP -2, Magazine size 10-20
DV6, AP -3Magazine size 10-20
DV7, AP -4, Magazine size 10-20
LMGs: DV5, AP -2 Belt
MMGs: DV6, AP -3 Belt
HMGs: DV7, AP -4 Belt
Shotguns: DV8, AP +1
Assault Cannon: DV9, AP -5
Ammunition changes:
Shotgun ammunition: The damage code of the shotgun represents the
damage when the shotgun fires slug ammunition.
Buckshot: contains 8-9 steel balls, DV +2, AP+4, penalty for
engaging a small target (-2) can be ignored, if done so, reduce
DV by 2.
Birdshot: contains a large amount of small ball pellets. DV is
doubled, but damage type is changed from P to S. AP is
modified by +4. The penalty for engaging a small (-2) or very
small (-4) target can be ignored, if done so, reduce DV by 2 for
small and by 4 for very small targets.
Buck'n'Ball: A shorter than standard slug following 4 buckshot
pellets, commonly known as Pitbull round. DV +1, AP +3. The
penalty for engaging a small target (-2) can be reduced by 1, if
done so reduce DV by 1.
Rhodesian Jungle: Buckshot mixed with Birdshot. DV
unchanged however the ammunition causes Physical and Stun
damage. AP modified by +4. The penalty for engaging a small
(-2) or very small (-4) target can be ignored, if done so, reduce
DV by 2 for small and by 4 for very small targets.
Shot rounds lose their energy faster than normal rounds, apply DV -1
and AP +1 for every range beyond medium.
Sliver round: This tight pack of metal slivers has the same DV
as buckshot but loses energy like normal rounds an has AP +2
modifier.
Flechette round: This large amount of tightly packed tiny metall
darts has the same values as birdshot but loses energy like
normal rounds.
Spread ammuntions and normal firearms: Only sliver and flechette rounds
can be fired from normal firearms. Due to rifleing however the ammunition
spreads so much that it is useless beyond short range, except for weapons,
which have specifically designed to fire this kind of ammunition exclusively.
Frag-12: this round has the same damage code as minigrenades but half the blast radius.
Assault cannon ammunition: The damage code of the assault cannon
represents the damage when the weapon fires HDX plastic slug ammunition
that was originally designated for training purposes. Normal ammunition
has the same values as grenades, but uses assault cannon ranges.
Ranged Combat:
Attacker rolls: Skill + Agility +/- modifiers, note net hits.
Ranged combat modifiers remain as per 20th Ann.Ed. with the following exceptions:
Image Madnification: Image Magnification halves the range modifiers
(round down)
Aimed shot: see below
Multiple Targets: does not apply for full auto, see below.
Called shots: can be used to bypass armor or inflict more damage by
targeting a vulnerable area. The dice pool penalty is determined by the size
(see below) of the targeted area.
Recoil: see below
Gyro Stabilization Harness: Bonuses have changed, see below
Dodging: Characters can only dodge, if they are aware of being shot at, which requires a observe action. players may not determine werther they or the person standing next to
them are shot at. Dodging is done with reaction. Full Dodge is done as before. note net hits.
Pointing: pointing a weapon at your enemy is intuitive and therefore is considered blind firing, which means -6 modifier.
Aiming: Aiming a weapon at your enemy, means your weapon is in a shooting position and you are aiming down your sights. this is normal shooting and requires a free action. It also limits the shooters field of view therefore causing a -2 modifier for visual
perception tests.
Taking aim: Taking aim is a complex action, where the shooter adjusts his aim to the
distance and the movement ( lead) of his target as well as adjusting his breathing. The
benefits are reduction of movement and target size/ called shot modifiers, with a
reduction of 1 per penalty per action taken, with a maximum of 2. This means a
character may spend one complex action to reduce the negative modifiers of a small (-2) fast moving (-2) target by one point each or he may spend two complex actions to
reduce those modifiers by two points each.
Recoil: One point of recoil is produced for every ten rounds or fraction therof fired with one trigger pull. If a weapon is fired without utilizing a stock the recoil is doubled.
Semi Auto fire: takes one simple action to perform.
Burst fire: firing a weapon in burst fire is a simple action.
narrow burst: a narrow burst increases the DV by a 1.5 multiplier (round
up), due to recoil narrow bursts are only possible at short ranges.
wide burst: a wide burst reduces the penalties of range or movement by 2, it also reduces the targets dodge pool by 2.
Full auto: a full auto weapon can fire 4-30 rounds per complex action to a maximum of 30 rounds per combat turn. Both maxima can be increased with the high velocity
modification by 15 rounds, this modification can be taken twice, so that maxed-out
weapons may fire 60 rounds per complex action and combat turn. Full auto fire is
always suppression fire. Attacker rolls: Agility + Skill + modifiers.
Damage is calculated as follows: (base DV + number of bullets spent) / recoil + unmodified distance modifier + meters covered.
Recoilcompensation: recoil can be compensated with a GasVent or a silencer, but not
both at the same time, which provide 1 point of compensation each.
Further compensation can be achieved with a foregrip and a bipod, which also provide 2 points of compensation each. in addition bipods provide 1 dice for the attack roll, as
they make the gun more stable . Bipods limit the shooters firing arc to 45°
Tripods provide 3 points of compensation and negate the doubled recoil penalty for
firing without stock and provide a firing arc of 90°, however their compensation cannot be combined with the compensation of the foregrip or the bipod.
Gyro Stabilization: this harness provides 2 points of compensation, negates the double
recoil penalty and cannot be combined with a bipod or tripod.
Recoil buffer: this modification dampens the backward movement of the bolt and
reduces recoil by 1 point.
Additional rules:
The further bullets travel the slower they become, to simulate this, apply + 1AP for long ranges and +2AP for extreme ranges.
Firing at small targets is more difficult and therefor implies a negative dice pool
modifier:
Small target, size of a watermelon: -2 DP modifier
Very small target, size of an apple: -4 DP modifier
Extremly small target, size of a cherry: -6 DP modifier
Concealability and Close Quarter Battle (CQB)
The larger a weapon is the harder it is to conceal but also to wield in confined spaces,
divide any positive concealment modifier of the weapon by 2 (round down) and apply
the resulting value as negative dice pool modifier.
Weapons damage codes:
Holdout pistols: DV 5, AP 0, Magazin size 10-12
DV 4, AP -2, Magazin size 11-13
Light pistols: DV 5, AP 0, Magazin size 15-17
DV 4, AP -2, Magazin size 17-20
Heavy pistols: DV 6, AP 0, Magazin size 12-15
SMGs: DV 6, AP 0, Magazin size ~25
DV 5, AP 0, Magazine size ~ 30
DV 4, AP -2, Magazine size 30-50
Carbines(SMG): DV 5, AP -2, Magazine size 30-45
DV 6, Ap -3, Magazine size 20-30
Assault Rifles: DV 5, AP -2, Magazine size 30-45
Battle Rifles: DV6, AP -3, Magazine size 20-30
Sport Rifles: DV5, AP -2, Magazine size 10
DV6, AP -3, Magazine size 10
Sniper Rifles: DV5, AP -2, Magazine size 10-20
DV6, AP -3Magazine size 10-20
DV7, AP -4, Magazine size 10-20
LMGs: DV5, AP -2 Belt
MMGs: DV6, AP -3 Belt
HMGs: DV7, AP -4 Belt
Shotguns: DV8, AP +1
Assault Cannon: DV9, AP -5
Ammunition changes:
Shotgun ammunition: The damage code of the shotgun represents the
damage when the shotgun fires slug ammunition.
Buckshot: contains 8-9 steel balls, DV +2, AP+4, penalty for
engaging a small target (-2) can be ignored, if done so, reduce
DV by 2.
Birdshot: contains a large amount of small ball pellets. DV is
doubled, but damage type is changed from P to S. AP is
modified by +4. The penalty for engaging a small (-2) or very
small (-4) target can be ignored, if done so, reduce DV by 2 for
small and by 4 for very small targets.
Buck'n'Ball: A shorter than standard slug following 4 buckshot
pellets, commonly known as Pitbull round. DV +1, AP +3. The
penalty for engaging a small target (-2) can be reduced by 1, if
done so reduce DV by 1.
Rhodesian Jungle: Buckshot mixed with Birdshot. DV
unchanged however the ammunition causes Physical and Stun
damage. AP modified by +4. The penalty for engaging a small
(-2) or very small (-4) target can be ignored, if done so, reduce
DV by 2 for small and by 4 for very small targets.
Shot rounds lose their energy faster than normal rounds, apply DV -1
and AP +1 for every range beyond medium.
Sliver round: This tight pack of metal slivers has the same DV
as buckshot but loses energy like normal rounds an has AP +2
modifier.
Flechette round: This large amount of tightly packed tiny metall
darts has the same values as birdshot but loses energy like
normal rounds.
Spread ammuntions and normal firearms: Only sliver and flechette rounds
can be fired from normal firearms. Due to rifleing however the ammunition
spreads so much that it is useless beyond short range, except for weapons,
which have specifically designed to fire this kind of ammunition exclusively.
Frag-12: this round has the same damage code as minigrenades but half the blast radius.
Assault cannon ammunition: The damage code of the assault cannon
represents the damage when the weapon fires HDX plastic slug ammunition
that was originally designated for training purposes. Normal ammunition
has the same values as grenades, but uses assault cannon ranges.
Interesting approach to being more realistic…
Any difference between a short bust and a long burst?
Any difference between a short bust and a long burst?
Interesting, I might steal some of these for my next campaign. Thank you for sharing!
For the jungle round, is it the maximum damage of the weapon, applied to both stun and physical, or half damage applied to each? It's an important detail to include.
I really like the range modifying damage rules you presented. It's a nuance I'd never considered. Granted, it rarely shows up in any game I've played in, but it's a nice touch.
Well done. I'll offer more insight later if I can.
I really like the range modifying damage rules you presented. It's a nuance I'd never considered. Granted, it rarely shows up in any game I've played in, but it's a nice touch.
Well done. I'll offer more insight later if I can.
If you are modifying the rules you can throw out the SR idiocies like "high velocity".
Why do holdout pistols do as much damage as assault rifles and light machine guns against unarmored targets?
Why do holdout pistols do as much damage as assault rifles and light machine guns against unarmored targets?
@Jizmack: there is no long burst. anything beyond 3 rounds is full auto.
@ Jhaiisiin: it's full damage. On a side note, it is worth considering to allow the sum of ballistic and impact armor to be used against birdshot, because of its extremely high DV.
@kzt: the high velocity mod. is idiocidy only in the standard rules. in these modified rules full auto is 30 rounds per combat turn which equals 600 rpm. the high velocity mod allows for weapons with 900rpm or even 1200rpm, which fits in well with todays infantry weapons. it is also not limitied to any weapons class.
Regarding DV of holdout and AR. A hold out from my perspective is something like a Glock 26, which fires 9x19.
the 9x19 and the 5.56 round do a somewhat similar damage to tissue (although they achieve the damage in very different ways), however the 5.56 has a much better penetration capability.
@ Jhaiisiin: it's full damage. On a side note, it is worth considering to allow the sum of ballistic and impact armor to be used against birdshot, because of its extremely high DV.
@kzt: the high velocity mod. is idiocidy only in the standard rules. in these modified rules full auto is 30 rounds per combat turn which equals 600 rpm. the high velocity mod allows for weapons with 900rpm or even 1200rpm, which fits in well with todays infantry weapons. it is also not limitied to any weapons class.
Regarding DV of holdout and AR. A hold out from my perspective is something like a Glock 26, which fires 9x19.
the 9x19 and the 5.56 round do a somewhat similar damage to tissue (although they achieve the damage in very different ways), however the 5.56 has a much better penetration capability.
QUOTE (maeel @ May 14 2012, 07:00 AM) 
@kzt: the high velocity mod. is idiocidy only in the standard rules. in these modified rules full auto is 30 rounds per combat turn which equals 600 rpm. the high velocity mod allows for weapons with 900rpm or even 1200rpm, which fits in well with todays infantry weapons. it is also not limitied to any weapons class.
I know how SR uses the word. It's idiotic because it's the wrong word, used by someone who pretty clearly had no idea what the heck they were talking about. Please find any use of of the word "velocity" that has any connection to rate of fire that isn't SR related. When people talk about velocity with guns they are, outside of some really narrow technical areas, always talking about how fast the bullet exits the end of the barrel and they are always taking about how fast a particular object is moving. It's like used the phrase " Zero to Sixty" to talk about how fast a car turns.
QUOTE
Regarding DV of holdout and AR. A hold out from my perspective is something like a Glock 26, which fires 9x19.
the 9x19 and the 5.56 round do a somewhat similar damage to tissue (although they achieve the damage in very different ways), however the 5.56 has a much better penetration capability.
the 9x19 and the 5.56 round do a somewhat similar damage to tissue (although they achieve the damage in very different ways), however the 5.56 has a much better penetration capability.
A G26 and a G17 are effectively the same terminal ballistics, and a G26 is the exact same size as a G27, which has effectively the same terminal ballistics as a G22. There is no reason, given the scale of SR, that a G26 should have any damage reduction from a full sized pistol. And have you ever tried to drop a G26 in the back pocket of your jeans? A G26 is not a holdout. A holdout is a little gun that is easy to hide, much more like a NAA-22lr to keltec P3AT So a holdout is much more .22lr to .380. So yeah, I think the pistol damage ranges you have are not good.
dont complain to me about bad wording by the SR authors. SR has weapons with a 'normal' firing rate, SR weapons can be modified to fire with higher firing rates, this modification is called High Velocity. The modified rules have weapons that fire at 600 rpm, these weapons can be modified to fire with higher firing rates, so its only plausible to keep the name.
The original rules put holdouts and light pistols in the same damage class, so did i, but if you really need a damage code for the calibers you mentioned, just use DV4AP0.
The original rules put holdouts and light pistols in the same damage class, so did i, but if you really need a damage code for the calibers you mentioned, just use DV4AP0.
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