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So- was hoping the Dumpshockers could help me.

Short form, my GM decided (maybe after a bit of whining on my part >.>) that the effects of Shock Gloves as described in RAW really didn't make a lot of sense. Somehow, the effects of my huge Trollish PhysAd punching someone magically disappeared when he hit someone with the Shock Gloves active? When the description clearly says that they're activated by, well, punching someone? Uh...

So, he houseruled that the Shock Gloves simply added their damage to the punch. This will probably have unforeseen consequences down the road (it always does. Murphy is alive and well in 2070, and does not take kindly to being taunted. Or at least gets far too much amusement out of it), but for the moment, I'm happy with it.

Only difficulty is, we're still kind of struggling with how to apply the damage, exactly. Slightly less than half my damage (5/11s) ignores half armour. Thus far he simply ruled that the damage is applied separately, re-using the net hits from my initial Unarmed roll and doing two damage resistance tests (so if I got five net hits, then the punch would do 11P/S depending on whether I decided to use Killing Hands or not, and then 10S(e) for the Shock Gloves, minus whatever hits were rolled on the opposing test).

I'm pretty sure this is breaking something rather badly and giving me an unfair advantage, and, more importantly (especially as this is a trial run for the system for my gaming group), it's bogging down the game pretty badly, especially since my character is the only one to get multiple initiative passes.

Can any of the math geeks out there sort out how to streamline the '5/11s of your damage bypasses half armour' into a single roll while keeping it mathematically consistent?

Thanks in advance- TeChameleon out.
I'd say to apply the net hits to one side or the other, not both. Rolling both separately works fine.

By taking the punch approach, you are giving up a few small benefits like the +2 Touch only, and the option that let's the stun go off from a glancing blow (tie on the attack/defense roll) rather than needing net hits.
Well, the 2 times damage resistance sounds like a good approach . . it's only one more roll on the target side . .
And stuff like this is EXACTLY why Magic and Tech don't work together in cases like this one . .
The problem is, rolling them separately is slowing gameplay down too much. Was hoping to get it shaved down to a single roll in a way that makes sense.

And the punch vs. touch thing is really a crunch vs. fluff- the fluff says very clearly that the gloves are activated by impact- i.e. punching things- and the crunch is set up in such a way that it only makes sense as a touch attack. Logically (at least from where I sit), the design would make the most sense if you could either tase someone by grabbing them (touch attack) or else tase someone by belting them one. Although I suppose it could be a mass production thing- having to add skinlinks to all the gloves so that you can turn them on and off without zapping yourself is the only other option I can think of for activating them beyond 'they turn on when you hit something hard enough'.
Seems to me that if you wanted to have the advantage of the +2 for touch only, then you would surrender the punch damage, ie. the second set of damage from the blow itself. So, you would make a choice, better chance of hitting but only one batch of damage, or haul off and slug the guy and get the punch damage but increase the risk of missing.
i still don't see why you are going for the shock glove in the first place . .
as an adept, pump up your own damage, then take elemental effect for punching . .
Well, maybe after the next bump in Magic and concomitant rise in Power Points, he will retire the gloves.

H'okeh... @Stahlseele- re. your first post (you ninja'd me on it, didn't actually see it until now)- it's actually three more rolls, given the extra initiative passes. And it's bogging our game down, which is not a good thing as we're all new to Shadowrun save the GM (and he's pretty rusty), and I think that the others are getting impatient with it. And this isn't even a magic/tech thing; the fluff for Shock Gloves says pretty clearly they activate by punching people, yet the damage code make no allowance for the fact that the person they're tasing has just gotten slugged in the face.

Re. your second post, I'm stuck with the core book, both by GM fiat and by having no way whatsoever to access any of the other sourcebooks. So no elemental punchiness for me. Gaming on a limited budget and all that.

@pbangarth- Not the problem- hadn't even thought about the option of being able to do either touch attack or punching attack as desired until now (might bring it up with my GM as a weapon mod for the gloves, since it would actually be kind of handy)- the problem is that the extra rolls are causing problems at the table, and was hoping for some kind of quick-and-dirty (and hopefully exceedingly simple) equation to reduce the double-roll to a single roll in order to speed things up.
Aaah, okay, that's a reason then . .
Also: how do you get to THREE more rolls per target? O.o
You punch him once, and instead of him resisting once for one kind of damage, he resists twice for two kinds of damage, just as he would with poison coated weapons . . what am i missing here?
Doesn't really seem like there'd be much incentive to go for Elemental Strike anyway, particularly if you're getting to stack damage from shock hands and troll strength. In strictly practical terms staying on top of Improved Ability is often a bigger priority for Unarmed combatants given that prime runner type opponents get decent mileage out of any defense skills present and because you're foregoing a +2 reach bonus even if you've got weapon focus knuckledusters or whatever. Can't hurt what you didn't hit, after all.
Heh- sorry. That's not 'per target', that's 'per round'- my adept gets three initiative passes to everyone else' one. So they wind up doing a lot of sitting around while this is going on, especially as we're all (re)learning the system.

The reasoning behind using the net hits for both resistance rolls (and please note that this is the GM's reasoning, not mine) is that only counting them for one or the other would make the one that didn't get the net hits be somewhat useless- it would add so little from just its base DV that there wouldn't seem to be a lot of point. I'd tend to agree, but think that adding the net hits to both is kind of overkill, and as noted previously, I think that him having to roll twice for every attack I make (especially since I'm attacking triple the number of times as anyone else) is hurting the game, since the other players get bored and combat becomes 'feed the problem to the troll'.

Was maybe thinking of seeing if the GM would go for 1/4 of my damage ignoring armour to save time and just dumping the lot on 'em, but I'm fairly certain that doesn't quite add up either. Eh. Maybe it's close enough. *shrug*
To do it as a single roll here's how'd I do it:

Net hits can be applied to damage or shock test.

Soak with base Impact Armor, plus Non-conductivity. (Basically, lose the AP -1/2 for the shock) Add the DV from Punch and Electrical together.

Secondary effect -- net hits are determined based on how many went to the shock instead of damage.


Troll-inator deals 5P damage with his bare fists. He puts on shock gloves 6S (e). Now, his fists do 11P (e) base DV plus net hits.

While in a dust-up with the Ancients, Troll-inator connects with Lt. Daisy-muncher's jaw. With 4 net hits, Troll-inator decides to split it 2 each raising it to 13P. Daiy-muncher soaks 6 boxes, taking 7P. Daisy-muncher now rolls to resist the shock effect, he fails the Body + Willpower test, and collapses twitching for the 4 combat turns (2 + 2net).


Honestly, I think the easier thing to do would be to take off the shock gloves. If the rest of the team is getting bored because you have 3 passes to their one, using a weapon that requires a Dodge, a Soak, and a Secondary Effect test is just making matters worse.
Okay, so trying to capture the dynamics of it counting as two attacks with two damage rolls, with just one soak roll. One for 5 stun and one 6 stun or physical. I'm would recommend adding net hits only once, but you asked for a streamlined way of doing it not advice on how to add net hits. I assume that this approach is what you want and that the only thing you want to get rid of is the time it takes to roll twice. I'll outline a few with the math. I'll look at two different targets.

Target 1: Target is wearing a vest and has 4 body, so is going to resist the shock glove with 7 (3 impact + 4 body) and the physical with 10 (6 impact + 4 body).
Target 2: High body target with 'ware and armor. 10 impact, nonconductivity 3, 5 body. So shock gloves 13 and punch 15.

Target 1:
Average will take 2.666 stun (+ net hits) from the shocking part of the attack and 2.666 stun or physical (+ net hits) from the punch.
Target 2:
Average 0.33+net hits stun from gloves and 1+net hits from physical.

So we want a system that with one roll will deliver an average 5.33 + 2*net hits stun or 2.66+net hits stun + 2.66+net hits physical to target 1. And 1.33 + 2*net hits stun to target 2 or 0.33+net hits stun and 1+net hits physical.

Method 1:
Just adding the damage together (11s) and giving just one soak roll with full impact and body. Applying all damage to stun or dividing equally between physical and stun for killing hands.
Target 1:
Average 7.66 + net hits damage. For 1 net hit this is about the same as the other method. For 2 or more net hits, this is less damage. One less damage than rolling separately for every net hit.
Target 2:
Average 6+ net hits. Way more powerful against the more heavily defended target. Unless you normally have 4+ hits.

Not the dynamic you're looking for, but fast and easy. Worse against weaker targets better against strong targets.

Method 2:
Only use the damage of the punch+2*net hits and give it -3 AP against targets (but allow them to apply nonconductivity) Divide the damage between physical and stun for killing hands.
Target 1:
Average 3.66 + 2*net hits. 1.66 less damage on average than applying separately.
Target 2:
1+2*net hits. 0.33 less damage on average than applying separately.

At least for the considered cases, it's very similar to the two dice rolls and does not depend as strongly upon the target.

Method 3:
Add the damage together and apply net hits normally, allow the defender to soak with 2*body+impact armor. Allow the target to apply nonconductivity as a bonus to their armor.
Target 1:
6.33+net hits. Close to the same damage, for low net hits.
Target 2:
3.33+net hits. Higher damage for 1 net hit. Close for 2 net hits. Lower for 3 net hits.

Better than method 1, but still doesn't quite capture the effect and still not very good for the tougher target.

Of course, these are just two cases for each method and they won't line up exactly.
'Close enough' is more than good enough for me; many thanks for the help. At a glance, looks like method 2 is likely to be the most comfortable one for my group, but I'll run this thread past my GM and we'll see what happens.
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