I wanted to hear opinions, thoughts and tips for starting new players and a new campaign.

I'm new to the system and I wanted to start our with the simplest rule-set for a set of newbies and a newbie GM (myself).

I was considering a low level campaign to get started and really feel the build (lower BP level) and only utilizing the base rulebook to start (maybe limiting availability of equipment).

Any thoughts or suggestions on this? What levels for BP, availability to start at? etc?

To save a whole lot of time and struggle, you could start with the guys in the book. None of them are awesome, but if you played a few sessions using them, your players will have a feel of what's good and what's bad about them before they build their own guys.
I promise, if everyone is new, most will want new characters after their first couple of sessions anyway, cause stuff didn't work the way they thought it would.

I pretty much agree with Bearclaw on this, so I'll just add that if it comes to BP, the standard 400 for starter characters is pretty low key IMO, especially for some of the party roles.

And if Starting Character Skill levels bother you (the ability to be the best of the best) just restrict the level of skills at the start.

Instead of One at 6 or two at 5, use one at 5 or two at 4, or even more restrictive use one at 4, or two at 3 (with Groups at 3 or 2 Respectively). Restrict availability of gear to 8 or lower, etc.

400 BP is not the problem, it is the limit to which you can spend it that potentially is, assuming you do not want Best in the world characters for a single skill to start with. This will also tend to provide better rounded characters as they can afford more lower level skills at that point.

Which is kind of the goal, I'm looking to keep them low level to start, build into the shadowrunner career. Also give them time to really get used to the rules. Is there any preferred method to tailoring the encounters/challenges to characters abilities from a GM standpoint?

Use Karmagen.

Plus, what TJ said. It is indeed of no use to limit the ressources when you can still have high dice pools at the cost of just being less well rounded. Hard caps on skill and attribute ratings (especially magic for adepts), availability and nuyen are key here. Also, you might want to limit Qualities (like Surge).

Unfortunately, there is no real system for ensuring that the difficulty of a planned encounter matches the strength of your players. A good rule of thumb is to check the key dicepools involved. Whats the shooting pool of your baddies versus the dodging and soaking pools for your 'runners.

Its also important to note that Shadowrun is a fast and brutal system. If the players (or NPCs) manage to get the other in a tactically inferior spot, they will be at a HUGE disadvantage that isn't always reflected in dice pools.

New SR players tend to forget the importance of plotting and knowledge, I would recommend you focus on these elements early on having contacts reach out to your players at first with information, and then change over to the more realistic 'pull' system of the players needing to hit up their contacts for info.

Also, try to make it clear that the runners aren't there to kill everyone and take their stuff...unless they're going pink mohawk.

Especially with new players, I recommend BP over Karmagen as it is simpler. General rules for a DITG (Down In The Gutter) game tend to be as follows:

1) Starting BP 300 or 320 or 360 (with half available for standard attributes)

2) Max starting cash 100,000 (20BP) or 150,000 (30BP)
... and limiting availability to 8 rather than 12

3) Max skills of 1 at 5 or 2 at 4, max for skill groups and other skills 3 or lower

4) Max starting magic hard-capped at 4 (and soft-capped at 3)

Enjoy!

I have made good experiences with the following (quite similar) restrictions for a bit lower-level characters (to leave more room to grow):

400 BP
Two Attributes at 5 max; all other Attributes at 4 max (modified by metatype; normal costs, i.e. 10 BP for every point)
Magic 4 max
One Skill at 5 max or two at 4 max; all other Skills and Skill Groups at 3 max (same limits also apply to Knowledge Skills)
Availability 8 max (up to 12 with the Restricted Gear Quality; only exception: Fake SINs and Licenses can be up to AV 12 as normal)
Free points to buy Contacts equal to Charisma x3

Bye
Thanee

Lowering starting BP does not make character weaker, it makes them more specialized. Also note that you require 320 BP to have human normal attributes(a 3 in everything). If I wanted to make lower level street level characters, I'd go 360 BP(half on attributes), max rank 3 in skills(one skill at 4), starting max 5 on attributes before meta adjustments(with normal double cost at max rank), max 8 availability, and max 30BP on money. You'll get weaker, but likely more broad characters. Don't lower amount of starting nuyen too much though, otherwise awakened characters will just win.

Some really helpful stuff here. I think for now we will be just gaming with the base rulebook + stuff in the runner's kit.

We'll see where that goes and if they like it and I'll go from there.

As for the initial campaign, I was looking a sort of laundry list of tasks to gain trust in a fixer that is essentially "setting up" locally. Basically players gain their trust and loyalty before the fixer introduces them to their first real Johnson. The tasks would essentially be shadowrun light, built to teach them the system and bring them up to speed, get them some cash, and a couple of cool trinkets, etc.

Any thoughts on building out? Where to start? or good resources?

If you want people to enjoy your game and continue to play two rules need to be observed:

1) Do not force them to suck to start out. Even the most minmaxed 400BP character has a lot of room to broaden and grow.

2) Don't make it seem like work. Give them a starter run sure but don't make it an audition. It can be designed to teach them the run but it's all about phrasing.

Food Fight...its quick and fun and gets you into the basics pretty good...

(just dont bunch up the bad guys comming through the door like I did.....damn combat mage)

If you want to start out at low power level and still have people not overspecialize.

Karmagen is best way to go. They're not penalized with higher karma costs later because they didn't min/max their BP.


I heavily suggest modifying it slightly though... treat race like you would cyber... Have everyone buy their BASE stats as if they were humans. Then apply the positive and negative racial templates AFTER buying stats. Have people buy up stats afterwards...
EG: Joey is making an ex-ganger from the barrens... starts with orc
Spends 10+15+20==35 karma raising body to 4... since he's street tough
Anyhow... if he were a human looking at stat line 4/4/5/3, 3/4/4/4, edg3
Now spend 20karma to buy orc. Apply +3bod,+2str,-1cha,-1log to the above.
If he wants to raise body or strength or even the mentals... pay the price to race the base attribute not the modified racial + cyber/magic augmented total.

Advantage.. players are more likely to spend a little karma here and there on making well rounded characters with a little bit of skill in a few areas. Since they're not punished by karma to raise things up later. (it costs as much in chargen to raise a skill, as it does in play later). Unlike in BP gen where not raising important skills/groups to 4 right away will cost you a lot of excess karma later and punish you. Similarly a troll going for max racial strength will only need 30karma just like a human maxing out strength... instead of the 50 he'd otherwise need.

Average stats for any race cost the same for everyone.

BP Gen does not work well for low level games because it heavily punishes people for not specializing early on... with much higher karma advancement costs later. Or you need to put other strictures out such as you can only softmax or the max ranks in a skill is 3 instead of 4... and only one or two skills at 4...

Good points, and I like your 360BP/max resources 30BP suggestion.

160BP on stats is doable (you could take a dumpstat at 1 and 2 2's to get a 5 and 2 4's or 2 5's), but 180 is much better for a reasonable stat spread.

Awakened characters do tend to shine in DITG games, so if you feel the need to address the mundane/awakened balance you could offer a slight BP penalty as a "rarity tax" for being awakened, or allow mundanes special benefits such as more BP available for attributes or money (perhaps with higher availability limits as well) or higher max skills. Before the mage squad take me out back and stunball me to death, it could be argued that given the prevalence of awakened PCs anyway, mundanes could benefit from this in a straight 400BP game ... (Ducks for cover) ...

Personally, I just wouldn't touch the build rules. Messing with the rules is, IMHO, an advanced GM thing. Once you know the rules, you can better figure out how to alter things to you and your player's tastes. Besides, unless you want characters that are starting out street-level (thrill or go-gangers, for instance), using the Rules-As-Written (RAW) can easily satisfy your desire for "low level" characters.

The most important GM tip I can pass on, especially when trying to gauge threat levels, is to CHEAT. Is that generic guard proving to be too tough? Fudge the dice or drop the pools on the fly. Hacker is sailing through what you wanted to be a challenging node or nexus? Raise the stats on the fly. The rules are important, but it is far, far, FAR more important to challenge, and not slaughter, your player's characters. Finding that balance requires you to put your karma into Logic and Intuition

Ehh, while I agree you should make sure you understand a rule fully before changing it, I'd never say SR4 is so perfect as to not need houserules(In fact I think SR desperately needs a 5th edition right about now, but that's an argument for another day). I will say that I don't think the BP system was designed to have more or less than 400 BP. If you reduce the amount of BP your ability to get decent attributes goes down really quick, without reducing the kind of dice pools you can get, and increasing starting power should be done via karma.

I really, REALLY don't like to have to resorting to cheating or fudging dice, especially in a rules heavy system like Shadowrun. Players build a character based on the rules of the game, and they expect the game to work a certain way. If you fudge the dice in their favor, you are denying them the chance to use their characters and to win or lose a fight on their merits. While occasionally it is neccesary, it should be an option of last resort, and you should never avoid making the changes you need to a game because you can fudge dice later on.

GMs should never fudge dice rolls. They control the game reality, so they can easily have NPCs start using stupider tactics, have reinforcements show up, and so forth, if they (or the players) screw up an encounter. Fudging degrades both the truly random factor of the dice, and the ability of dice rolls to quantify things such as skill or challenge level. If an event "has" to happen, then you are writing a story, not a plotline, and should consider drastically revising your scenario. Plots should continue with or without the input of the PCs, but once they are involved, they should have a fair chance to affect what happens, for good or for ill. If a PC is in trouble - well, that's what Edge is for.

Actually I'm with speed wraith on this one partially. Starting GM's should do their best to stay fully within RAW.

Unfortunately running a low power game more experienced players will still make characters almost as powerful as their normal ones but with bigger weaknesses. They'll then just use karma to cover up those weaknesses (buy up low stats for example)... rather than advance themselves farther til they feel their biggest achilles heals are covered.


And I agree.. fudging dice rolls is one of my most hated things. Really it's a game... the point is to have fun. If your character is never in any real danger because benevolent daddy GM is looking out for you, rather than being the uncaring adjudicator of the situation... then it loses much of it's appeal to me. (I DID choose to break into the renraku compound... god help me if I didn't know exactly what I was getting myself into. When the red sams respond. I better have a plan.

Really what's the worst that happens... if the GM is feeling benevolent. I permanently burn a point of edge which I can buy back later. He doesn't assess me with extra negatives... or tosses me in some situation to work my way out of which gives the group and me a new problem to work through. Or I make up a new and more interesting character (that street sam was getting old... time to explore rigging... etc.)

Really... I'd much rather let the dice have their say, than feel railroaded into being mere spectators to the GM's whims.

It's down to personal opinion, but one thing is certain: If you're going to fudge dice, never get caught.

The characters come first. I'm not going to let an extremely lucky roll on my part arbitrarily kill a character. If, however, a character does something outrageously ill-conceived, then they deserve what they get. I've killed plenty of characters because the opposition was seriously challenging or because they did something outrageously dumb over the last two decades, but I'll be damned if I'm going to force a player to create a new character just because of a few bad rolls. Character deaths should be either grandly heroic, or woefully tragic. The dice aren't the master, nor for that matter is the GM. The story and characters are.

But yeah, that's mostly a matter of personal taste and no, it doesn't pay to let the players know if you've done it (for me, a handful of times over the years, at best). YMMV.

Anyway, my point was more to be flexible and be aware that Shadowrun doesn't have a "Challenge Rating" system to gauge difficulty. The closest we get is Prime Runner rules. Sometimes you have to make changes on the fly, don't be affraid to do that.

Unlike most other games, I hear this game has some sort of system, involving luck that lets you survive the BS of a bad dice roll... just saying.

Of course, when you are out of Luck...

Isn't that why it's there =) Gotta earn your luck, more deadly campaigns might requisite more giving of edge. Seems like a prime system for a DM to legitimately offer their players rewards for getting out of absurd situations or doing remarkably well so they have it available when the shit hits deh fan.

Both are excellent points, actually. The latter being less common than the former. Still, I was approaching this from a non-system-specific point of view. Again, the overall point is to be flexible I get people wanting to jump on me for advocating cheating as a GM, and I understand why this can be a hot-button issue. People are thinking about potentials for abuse, either for or against the players, and how that can reduce the enjoyment of a game. It is a legitimate concern and one to be aware of. I should have added a caveat originally to use this sparingly, if at all.

An excellent example of what I mean about the story trumping random chance (and the most prominent example, if not the only one I have) comes from a D&D campaign I ran a long time ago. The characters had been receiving hints about a big-bad coming into power for quite some time. When they finally got a shot at facing their enemy, it was in a sort of underground fighting tournament in a one-on-one duel with one of the PCs. A close fight, both the baddie and the character facing him were near death when I rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll for the baddie. He may not have confirmed that critical, and he probably wouldn't have killed the character without confirming and rolling well, but his entire plan was predicated on dying publicly to the heroes who wanted to stop him (a whole big thing involving clone and miracle spells). I announced a miss and a moment later the PC killed him.

Was it wrong of me to do that?

I say no, and my players agree. They knew something wasn't right, especially the player who might have died if he hadn't pulled that punch. They knew he chose to lose that fight. It infuriated the hell out of them, not that he should have won but seemingly didn't, but that the fact that they really didn't know what was going on. The payoff when they discovered the full extent of that bad guy's scheme, and when they finally stopped him and destroyed him fully and completely, was totally worth it for the entire group. They wouldn't have wanted it to go any other way.

I once had a character in a legends of the five rings RPG. The DM had presented a "high class" character that was the villian, but due to due process and player standing (which my character gave about jack squat about), most of the characters wanted to "discuss" the issue. My character called the guy out and approached blade out and declared the accusation.

My choice to approach and draw my weapon let me nearly one shot the character by blowing the games version of edge, going full attack stance to get close enough after jumping onto a table infront of him(all the other players were not close enough because I was the only one who moved forward when I spoke against him and threatened with my blade) and stop him from using his full advantage against our group.

To me as a player, player boldness (not stupidity) is important, because it defines the characters and really makes the story. Then again I also RP'd more than our other players, who were shitting bricks when I breached protocol and thought we would all be executed for my decisions. Good thing I was correct =)

Ahh...but L5R is such a slippery slope...the DM i had for L5R would have loved someone doing that. It would have given him a reason to make them lose honor, lose glory, be stripped of any rank and thrown out into the street for the etta to tread on.

Well, I had my reasons, I mean we did have a lion clan samurai who admitted that the man was involved, was suffering from the effects of bloodspeaker magic, and had said that the person was an active bloodspeaker, and was ready to commit seppuku to cleanse the shame of his association from the man. Plus you know, there was a women actively chanting next to him in an empty room of the city governors work place... that seemed kind of out of place.

If after all that the DM was "just messing with us" then my character would pay the consequences. Point is though that players who are bold, even if their characters might not be the face-first crazy run and gun street sam front man, will tend to bring fun and memory to the events of a campaign, just means they have to save their "luck" for when that fun turns south.

As a DM I'd rather my players be bold and have fun and enjoy their characters than "play it safe" and plan everything out and just use their luck to make a few key rolls better, or reroll bad ones.

This is the truth of it. Such actions are highly dishonorable...

I can see that. L5R was probably simultaneously the most and least fun I have had with a system. It is one of the deadliest systems I have every played, both from combat and just saying the wrong things. And yet, it was awesome to realize that 1)telling the truth is considered rather rude, and 2) its not about what you say (be it truth or lie), its about how SINCERE you are about saying it! lol

Also very True... I love L5R... Just wish I could play it more often.

I've always been a fan of insulting fat people by exclaiming how all would but stand within their great shadow in L5R. Anyways yeah but I feel the system is somewhat similar to l5r in terms of play, similar dice mechanics (all on 1 dice), stat + skill, etc.

As for losing honor, 100% agree... if you're wrong... rule #1, when making an accusation, do not be wrong. rule #2, make sure you are willing and capable of killing them over it, because it might come to that.

oh...and never accuse a Scorpion...because even though everyone KNOWS your right, you will never be able to prove it, and you will probably end up getting blamed for it anyway...

::mumbles:: damn scorpions anyway...sneaky, slimey little bastards.....