I've got a character concept of a Mystic Adept who lost his legs and lower arms while defusing a bomb for the UCAS military. He naturally got cyber replacements and lost all but 1 Magic point (used for a Magic/Adept 1/0 split).

This is the list of spells I've come up with which seem pretty decent at 1 magic (with Spellcasting (Manipulation) 6(:

Detect Life
Fix
Heal
Levitate
Mana Static
Mind Probe
Physical Mask
Shape Metal
Sterilize
Trid Phantasm

What else would this character be able to do at this power level with any success?

Oxygenate (Base spell let's you breathe underwater)
Light
Magic Fingers
Shapechange
Ignite (Natural products--wood, paper etc)

Biggest problem will be the cap on hits, based on Force. If you have to overcome that, using a Point of Edge will let you.

Shape Metal won't work, you need to overcome the object resistance of the target to do it, right?
Also, you can cast the spells at force 2, which is twice your magic attribute.
Of course, any drain you DO take will be physical damage, but staging down drain from Force 2 should still be pretty doable i guess . .

Furthermore: Astral Perception will still work
As should summoning spirits too.

Just for the record, they could have (and assuredly would have) trivially given him cloned limbs for no Essence or Magic loss. Justify harder!

Alright, he worked for a much cheaper military!

Cyberleg: 20,000¥ +1,500¥ for each attribute point above 3
Type-O Leg (with the right Attributes already included): 21,000¥
Cloned Leg (with the right Attributes already included): 25,000¥

Except being more interesting for organleggers, awakened can take the type-O replacements without drawbacks AFAIK.

Again, justify harder.

Yeah, even with all the nice new toys of SR4, there is close to no reason at all to ever use cybernetic Limbreplacements . .
ESPECIALLY as an awakened . .

this is why so many people end up with Colonial brand cyberlimbs, shoddy paperwork

"no, no, no I said 'CLONAL' replacements, not "COLONIAL' replacements"

"well, we've got good news and bad news"

Levitate won't work well because the speed is equal to net hits times Force of the spell, and it requires one hit per 200 kg of material to be moved. So at F1 you get 1 hit and can't move since your speed is 0. At F2 with 2 successes you'd be able to move at 2 meters/CT - barely moving at all.

Wait . . net hits X Force of Spell . .
So 1x1 would be 1m not 0 right?
And that's still m per combat turn, and one combat turn is 3 seconds long, right?
And yes, 200kg is the limit there, but 200kg is USUALLY enough.

OK the background needs work, but I haven't even played SR in 12 years so its really a theoretical character. Ignore the background details for now

No, you need 1 hit per 200 kg of weight to be moved, and net hits after that are x Force for movement. So you can't Levitate anything at F1 since you have no net successes and 0 x 1 = 0.

Actually the spell would automatically fail at Force 1 without the use of Edge. Contrary to the general rules about threshold tests, spells do not work unless you get at least one net hit.

ah, i see.

Actually... levitate is... net hits after OBJECT RESISTANCE. (or in the case of living target their resistance roll). This makes it identical to every other spell in the game in the determination of net hits.


If you try and levitate a motorcycle... you need 5 to beat object resistance... then you need at least 3 to get 600kg (half ton, some bigger some smaller..). Those same 3 x force determine how fast you can move it. (say force 9... 27m per combat turn, about the same as a character can run per turn).


So yes you can levitate something with only a single success... not well by any stretch of the imagination... (a living target like that doggy in the window with no successes on it's body roll to resist... you can then move it a whopping 1m per combat turn sustained). Practically worthless at force 1 since even rocks have object resistance 1. Another useful number to remember is grenades at OR3! (levitate em exactly where you want em then command detonate).

I was thinking for self only.

Actually Neraph... I've been having really slipshod memory of late... must be getting old.

Levitate does have an extra threshold modifier of weight/200kg. So you'd need to roll enough successes to overcome OR and the weight before you get to net hits for speed.

There's a little bit of greyness... does it mean for every full 200kg of weight... or for every 200kg or fraction thereof. Most people I've noticed forget about it most of the time except when someone tries to lift something really big and heavy. So I'd think it's more generally accepted as the former, for every full 200kg of weight. So no, I don't think your typical mage is going to need to waste his first success just to lift himself (unless he's the baron harkonnen or a troll). That latter part is just speaking from my own experience.

The net result of the latter reading is that you'd need 7 successes before you'd even be able to lift a smartgun for example. If it's only per full 200kg... then you'd only need 6 successes! (who would have thought that lifting a 1kg gun would be so hard!).

Grenades are only OR 3? They're wireless computers with sensors and highly processed synthetic materials, right?

Clauraudience/Clairvoyance/Astral Window/Mana Window are all useful. You won't get many hits, but a lot of the time you just want to see obvious things anyways.
Detox
Alter Memory is a little unreliable, but not useless at low force.
Metal Wall is basically Tinfoil Wall at force 2, and it's 6 drain, but it's opaque which makes it potentially still helpful.

A sensor like a camera is only OR3 as well... that's far more complicated than a grenade.

A sensor package is OR5.... That from synner back in the day.


Iron Ore, OR1, Steel OR2, steel tool/sensor/simple electronics OR3, Drone/vehicle/sensor package (multiple sensors put together into a single package) OR5.

According to the SR4 fluff/crunch. A SR4 grenade can be set to detonate on impact after it's gone 5m (range safety can be disarmed), command, or timer (set to 1 pass by default). We also stick with the house view that grenades still have safety pins as well! (or don't arm til they're fired for the grenade launcher models). But overall that would only be the detonator... the vast bulk of any grenade is only a cannister filled with explosive.

I wouldn't say 'far more complicated'. The point is that it's multiple sensors, some kind of computer, wireless link, and an advanced explosive material, and OR doesn't care about 'the vast bulk' of something. I'm just surprised that they're only OR 3, if a sensor package is 5, and so I expressed that surprise. Personally, I think it's silly for levitate to care about OR (as opposed to pure mass), so I don't have a position here.

The Illusion spells (P Mask and Trid Phantasm) would not work against cameras at low force either, as you need to beat the OR for them to work.

Don't forget, magicians have more than spells at their disposal. Even at wimpy Force 1 and Force 2, some spirit tricks can be handy for utility purposes. Also, at low Force, with decent skills (and/or Mentor bonus, or whatever), you'll be completely dominating the Summoning Test, Binding will be fairly cheap and easy, etc.

Nothing groundshaking, but every little bit helps when you're trying to make Magic 1 useful.

Any particular reason you're going MysAd instead of just Magician? Opening up all the astral goodies, for pure utility's sake, might be a better idea than maintaining (wimpy) Adept potential.

IIRC the optional severe wounds rules in AU have scope for losing Essence by being hurt really badly. You can also lose Magic from botched doctoring tests, so perhaps either or both of those will do.

I would say your background still work.

It depend on WHEN you got the replacement, and WHERE. Cloned members are somewhat recent and hard to get to SINless people. If wounded on a battle situation it is possible that all they got on hand were second rate cybernetic members (easier to transport and maintain than lively grown cloned members) and they put them on in emergency. You could remove them and upgrade to better one or cloned one but it is too late for your magic rating.

Ignoring the background details for now...

Why do you want to play a magic 1 character? Is this just a theoretical character that you might play or a theory crafting character to see if it can be done with effectiveness?

It's true, Aerospider, the optional rules might provide a better explanation… if they're using them. I don't think they'd *normally* account for 5 points of loss, but that's the kind of thing you *can* handwave a little at chargen.

I assumed it was because 'MysAds are just better', Critias. Gotta love that 1/0 split.

We've always played 1 hit for every 200 kg or fraction. Otherwise you've got a number of things that can "fly" for free.

Well...i suppose the only good thing about the cyber is that he has extra physical boxes...so if he has to overcast (which is likely) he will take longer to kill himself!

Unless he has drain stats of 1 each, it is very unlikely he will ever suffer drain. That is, if he can refrain from throwing around napalm (7 drain for Force 1) or other highly draining spells.

Like I said, I haven't played in over a decade (and probably never will again, being an adult stinks) but I still make characters for fun and hypothetical purposes. So yes, this would be a purely theoretical character testing the usability of a 1 Magic.

I don't know about that... a force 1 fireball is *STILL* 5 drain! Perfect for those looking to hurt themselves more than the opposition!

Oh, even better those 'improved' elemental spells which had the +7 drain codes in street magic. (I guess if you have a dragon casting maybe useful and annoying....).


And really... a force 1 levitate on a hamster with 1 success... you really object to the gimp barely being able to lift and move the hamster a whopping 1m per combat turn! I guess a 3rd option could be per 200kg rounded.... 0-99 0, 100-299 +1 threshold..... I still think forcing someone to waste the first success on lifting something under 200kg after object resistance is a bit of overkill though.

I think it comes down to this... levitate operates directly on a target and has a fair amount of power if you can use it at force 7 or so....


Magic fingers creates a force of much weaker strength you can use to pickup, maneuver tools, do things... (press doorbells to annoy your neighbor!)... but that's not really suitable for magic 1 either... (str and agility of force -2).

How about the Aura line of spells? Fire Aura in particular is nice. Even if you don't use it on yourself, cast it on your melee partner, he'll like it.

-D

When it goes against the rules, yes I'm against it. Also, that hamster could be a warform. From my archives...

Death Squirrel
Note that a squirrel and a hamster are both small rodents, so the above could easily also be a Death Hamster.

EDIT: You may have to trim Attribute Enhancement (Intuition) from the above, as there are 7 abilities and Warforms can only have 6. This is a chimera, however, so maybe not.

I love it! Consider augmenting this enhanced creature with introduction into an area by parachute drop as has been used to reintroduce beavers into regions of the US and Canada. Competition for those damn Drop Bears!

I created a warform hamster for an NPC.

Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!

It was created as a tongue in cheek counter to the proliferation of Love Trolls. Boo loves his Love Nuts .

Neraph... my entire point was the +1 per 200kg was grey.... it doesn't tell you how to round (up/down/closest). So no it's not against the rules.


Outside of that I have no idea where you're pulling a warform hamster out of... guessing your nether regions Mr Slave. Especially that ludicrous cobra poison power rating.

Watcher Spirits?

This would be my reply as GM:



If you only want to play a magician, you should take the magician quality, not the Mystic Adept quality.

First off, I specifically stated it was from my archives, not my nether regions or my implied homosexual bondage love slave (which I take offense to). The cobra power rating is following the rules for chimeric creatures from Running Wild - I even listed the abilities' names, availabilities, and costs (Chimeric Ability (Venom [Cobra]) [-, 38], Potent Venom [-, 23]). The reason I posted it in the first place? You specifically mentioned a hamster with the Levitate spell and your implication was "it's so light weight why should you need 1 success for it," and my joking response was that that hamster could murder people.

In any event, your "grey area" for the Levitate spell is that the spell requires one success per 200 kg of weight to be lifted, and you interpret it that if it isn't a full 200 kg you don't need a success. Under that interpretation then most people can fly without successes required to lift them. There is also a concept in legal documents called "precedent." The precedent in this case is how Essence loss is counted against Magic/Resonance (every full point or fraction of a point) and how encumbrance is calculated (every 2 points or fraction thereof).



What if you want to play a "magician" that does not project or perceive? Then you'd have to be a Mystic Adept with no Power Points. Why pay for two abilities that you won't use?

While this spell works at force one, it gets considerably better at higher force, especially the defensive benefits.

If you only want a certain aspect of a magician, take the aspected magician negative quality, possibly with the focused specialist optional rule.

And of course, the rules should properly balance the costs for aspected limits/etc. The problem is that you gain adept for also spending less (PQ) BP, in a messy 'trade'.

Neraph... yes I'm well acquainted with 'precedent'... unfortunately you're not. Your reading is one of a few *POSSIBLE* readings.

Look at the wording for essence loss. It's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than levitation spell. It's unambiguous. "ANY" essence loss results in a loss of magic. So your 'precedent' isn't even similar, it uses completely different diction and grammar.

Again, *MY* experience of playing with a few GM's is most of them ignore the threshold unless I try and lift something big and heavy... (which fits with a round down/closest approach). If I had to pay $100 per 10lb's sent through gimp express... that rate could be $20 for 2lbs, or $100 for anything up to 10lb's, the details of the pricing structure aren't given by the wording (if they said per 10lbs or fraction thereof then it is..., but they didn't do this in this case). The spell only says "1 per 200kg of the subject's mass".



And I don't care about your gimpy hamster. Levitated at 1m per combat turn... it's not going anywhere fast! It's a non-sequitur you threw in to no ends... it's the reason I made a south park joke about it appearing out of nowhere. (cobra venom has a power of *8* btw, not 14...... so even if you hand it that AND the potent venom power it's still only 12).



As far as the rest... yeah I don't see a problem with a mystic adept with only 1point in magic... that 1 point has to go somewhere!!! Either 0/1 or 1/0... There are other means to similar ends as well which eat up more or less of the quality budget (magician with aspected sorceror (-4 to anything that isn't casting a spell)).

I agree that it makes more sense to be 'per 200kg or fraction'. There's no reason to get something for nothing.

The BBB quote Larsine provided is pretty clear on that front, the RAW categorically closes the loophole to make a 10BP magician. The Magicain quality is not broken down into Sorcery 5BP, Conjuring 5BP, Astral Perception/Projection 5BP, it is a 15BP all-or-nothing quality, end of.

Options to create a "magician" that does not astrally project or perceive are as follows:
1) Aspected magician, as suggested above
2) Mystic Adept (10BP) with only 1 on the Adept side of the split. I know, having to chose 1PP worth of Adept powers must be a real hardship ...
3) Magician (15BP), with Incompetent (Assensing) (-5BP) and a fluff background that (for instance) he hates and distrusts this nightmare pseudo-world he sometimes glimpses and can't make head nor tail of, but it or something lurking in it seemingly grants him these dark powers
4) (Subject to GM approval) Magician (15BP) who for some reason cannot astrally perceive or project

As to the OP's concept, I guess it could be argued that he was pursuing both the "magician" and "adept" side of things until the disaster that ruined his body and forced essence and magic reducing cyber on him. Saying that, the GM would be bang within rights to say that if one side of the split went to 0 the character might lose that "side" of his magic forever.

In terms of character viability, I would suggest taking only 2 cyberlimbs and a cybertorso. This combination would help improve the character's overall physical attributes, allow for cool stuff like spirit power Movement/Great Leap and raptor legs, or maxed Agi cyberarms for gun-wielding madness, along with plenty of capacity for biomoniters, nanohives, armour etc. If you went alphaware (2.8 essence), you could add a bit of bioware and still get 1/1 after the split from a soft-maxed Magic of 5 ...

Midas... no the split is *NOT* forced by RAW...

SR4a
"Characters who wish to become mystic adepts have the *OPTION* of splitting their Magic attribute between spellcasting and conjuring or physical abilities."


Quite frankly... you get enough more for magician that it's worth the 15 if you're looking to be a full magician. The only bits in this thread I object to is people who actively do try and turn mystic adept into full magician by abusing drugs and not expecting to get addiction qualities or the like. (you're looking at the difference between a 10 and 15BP positive quality... it's not that cheap... yeah if it was 5BP vs 15... I'd understand it in a heartbeat).

The only way this really gets abusable is if you allow the mystic adept to get PP on the cheap by initiating... if you don't allow that, there's not really a balance problem.

@Falconer
I would argue that the rules quote you provided, the word "option" is used to contrast Mys Ads to Adepts and Magicians. Here is the SR4 p92 (i.e. RAW) quote Larsine gave again:



What is your interpretation of the first sentence, if not to close the loophole of a 10BP mage? How else can the quality be abused?

I guess it could be argued that exploring one's nature as a Mys Ad does not necessarily mean right now, but PCs have already garnered a hell of a lot of experience to get to the 400BP (or 750 karma Karmagen) level, so to me a character that has got that much karma under his belt and not put one single point of karma into the adept side of things is patently not exploring his nature as a Mys Ad.

I would agree with you that the ability to astrally perceive and project is worthwhile, and that regular drug (ab)users should be subjected to periodic addiction tests, though.

Yes, their nature as mystic adepts... what exactly is a mystic adept?! A gimped mage... a gimped adept... mixture of the two... a straight adept with better access to skills and metamagics....

It's meaningless fluff... cautioning against what exactly?!

You can keep parroting that... but it's like saying watch out for the bogeyman... what bogeyman exactly... you're left to your own to make it up. The only hard *RAW* is the rules detailing how a mystic adept MUST spend their points... there are none only a GUIDELINE that GM's may need to be careful.


When it comes to full magician... the lack of astral access is a HUGE problem. And my way of dealing with any mystic adept who things they can abuse drugs to gain access is automatic addictions... Astral recon is a large part of what makes mages useful. And if the mystic adept can't blow initiations for PP... even spending the 1PP for astral perception is a big hit.

Without access to astral... the mystic adept also can't clean up his spell signatures. So yes I don't see it as a cheap 10BP mage... it's not. It's nowhere close. I don't see a loophole at all unless you allow the mystic adept to abuse other rules.

Erm, no, I said the first sentence, to whit: "Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused." I ask again, how can this be interpreted other than to prevent the likes of Neraph from making a 10BP mage? Can you give me a single alternative example of how the quality could be abused? (Apart from taking it down to the cellar, tieing it up and giving it a good spanking, of course) ...

As to the second sentence about a Mys Ad exploring their nature, it obviously means exploring the (sorcery/conjuring) "magician" side as well as their (power points) "adept" side.

I expected better from you, but separating the RAW arbitarily into "fluff" (bits you want to ignore) and "crunch" (bits you want to emphasize) is a weak man's arguement. I know the devs are sometimes maddeningly imprecise in their language use, but hey, Dumpshock would be a poorer place if they weren't ...

It's their fault for making the Awakened qualities so cheap, and for making mysad cheaper than mage. *shrug* Mostly, it depends on the GM's opinion of that specific player/character.