I mentioned this in another thread, and Neraph wanted to take a peek. So as suggested, I'm posting them in their own thread.







BOOK LIST
I own copies of the following books:

Primary Sources:

• Shadowrun 4 Anniversary Edition
• Arsenal
• Augmentation
• Runner's Companion
• Street Magic
• Unwired

Expanded Sources:

• Attitude
• Deadly Waves
• Digital Grimoire
• Gun Heaven 1
• Gun Heaven 2
• Hazard Pay
• MilSpecTech
• Parabotany
• Parazoology
• Runner Havens
• Running Wild
• Safehouses
• Sixth World Almanac
• Spy Games
• State of the Art 2073 (SotA73)
• This Old Drone
• Unfriendly Skies
• Vice
• War!
• Way of the Adept

MISSIONS
This will be a “closed” Missions campaign – that is to say, I will be using the published Missions adventures, but will not be using the limitations imposed on Missions characters. Additionally, while Missions uses none of the various Optional Rules suggested in many of the published books, I like some of them, and even have a couple of my own. Also, characters for this game are only for this game - and vice versa.

OPTIONAL RULES

The following optional rules will be in use:

(Arsenal)

Maximum Armor Modifications, p44
Armor Suit Capacity, p44
Chemistry (Logic) as a Technical Active skill, p78
Martial Arts, p156
Advanced Combat: Additional Ranged Modifiers, p161
Advanced Combat: Holding Weapons, p161
Advanced Combat: Recoil and Strength, p163
Advanced Combat: Throwing back grenades, p163
Hazardous Environments, pp163-7, except as superceded by Hazard Pay

(Augmentation)

Tweaking the Rules, pp22-23: Implant Maintenance
Tweaking the Rules, pp22-23: Hard-hitting Cyberlimbs
Redlining a Cyberlimb, p44
Mystical Healing, p123

(Digital Grimoire)

Tweaking the Rules, p12: Alternative Possession Mechanics

Spirits may only be commanded to Possess a vessel that is in LOS of the conjuror.
Living Vessels may resist Possession in the manner of mental control spells.

(Parabotany)

Expansion of the Location Test, p45

(Street Magic)

Tweaking the Rules, p31: Arcana

Arcana is linked to the Drain Attribute of it's Tradition.

Tweaking the Rules, p31: Adepts and Geasa

Adepts may take voluntary Geasa to reduce PP cost of their powers.

Tweaking the Rules, p31: Spirit Edge

Spirits are treated as Grunts in service of their Conjuror.

(Unwired)

Tweaking the Rules, p39: Using Attributes

Your attribute limits total successes per roll. Technomancers are limited by the Fading attribute of their Stream (so generally: Charisma, Intuition, Logic, or Will).

Tweaking the Rules, p39: Harder Encryption

The interval for non-Signals Decryption is one minute.

Tweaking the Rules, p39: Security Tally
Tweaking the Rules, p39: Complex Forms

NOTE: Using a complex form at a rating equal to or less than your Resonance does not invoke Fading. Using a complex form higher than your Resonance, up to 2x Resonance, invokes Fading as Stun damage.

Vehicle Modification: Weapon Mounts
… to allow smaller drones to carry very small weapons, and to make mid-sized drones not always carry an LMG, the following changes are used:

Basic Frame

Mini Mount (Minidrone); 1 slot / 500 nuyen; kit, threshold 3 (Armorer)

Can mount Holdout and Light Pistols.

Light Mount (Standard); 1 slot / 1000 nuyen; kit, threshold 6 (Armorer)

Can mount Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols, and SMGs.

Standard Mount (Standard); 1 slot / 1,500 nuyen; kit, threshold 9 (Armorer)

Can mount any rifle, shotgun, or generally rifle-sized grenade launcher. Minimum body of 4, may have one per 4 body (round up).

Reinforced Mount (Standard); 2 slots / 3,000 nuyen; shop, threshold 12 (Armorer)

Can mount Light and Medium Machineguns, and man-portable Assault Cannons. Minimum body of 6; may only have one per 6 body (round down).

Heavy Mount (Standard); 3 slots / 10,000 nuyen; shop, threshold 15 (Armorer)

Can mount Heavy Machineguns and vehicle-scale weapons (e.g., rotary assault cannons). Minimum body of 14; may only have one per 10 body (round down).

Mobility

Fixed; +0 slots / 1,000 nuyen; no tools, no threshold
Flexible; +1 slot / 3,000 nuyen; shop, +6 threshold
Turret; +3 slots / 5,000 nuyen; facility, +16 threshold

Visibility

External; +0 slots / 0 nuyen
Internal; +2 slots / 1,000 nuyen; shop, +6 threshold
Concealed; +3 slots / 4,000 nuyen; shop, +10 threshold (Disguise)

Special

Armored Control; +2 slots / 2,000 nuyen; shop, +10 threshold
Manual Control; +1 slot / 0 nuyen; no tools, no threshold
Remote Control; +0 slots / 500 nuyen; shop, +6 threshold

Suppressive Fire: the weapon's Recoil Compensation is added to the die pool – you can put more bullets into useful places if your weapon is easier to control.

Free Contacts: you gain free points of contacts equal to Charisma + Intuition + Etiquette.

Stick and Shock ammunition has a DV of +1S(e) – that is to say, a DV of one more than the weapon firing it.

Commlink Hardware Optimisation is available for System and Firewall, also.

Cyberlimb Armor uses the following rules:

Cost:

Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen, Rating * [2] Capacity
Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen, Rating * [4] Capacity

Availability:

Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 4R
Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 6R

Rating Limits:

Hand/Foot: not available
Half limb: 1 point (each limb)
Full limb: 2 points (each limb)
Torso: 3 points
Skull: 2 points

Note: Cyberlimb Armor functions as a direct addition to all worn armor – for the entire body.

Firearms Skills: There is no such skill as “Automatics”; that is instead a specialisation of other skills. Skills in the Firearms Group include Pistols (Holdouts, Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols, SMGs), Longarms (SMGs, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Battle Rifles, Sport Rifles), and Heavy Weapons (Grenade launchers, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs).

Yes, that means SMGs can be fired using either Pistols or Longarms. Knock yourselves out.

High Powered Ammunition is not a separate type unto itself; many kinds of ammunition are available in high powered ("HP") variants. (Disallowed HP ammunition includes Stick-and-shock, Capsule, Gel, and Subsonic.)

Firearms must be modified to fire such rounds, and once modified can fire only HP ammunition. Any firearm, including assault cannons, can be modified in this way. Modifying a weapon to fire High Powered ammunition costs 2 slots, has a threshold of 20, requires an armorer's shop, and costs as much as the original weapon (with an availability of 7R). This modification is incompatible with Extended Magazine and Increased Cylinder.

HP ammunition gains +1 damage and -1 armor piercing, in addition to the base values for that type of round. Price is multiplied by four, and availability increases by +8. When fired, all recoil is doubled before compensation. Additionally, HP ammunition is especially loud and has a large muzzle flash. Attempts to detect or pinpoint the firing of HP ammunition gain +3 dice for hearing tests, or +1 die for visual tests (these modifiers are cumulative with silencers / suppressors).

Edge and Spellcasting: If you spend a point of Edge, to add your Edge attribute to your spellcasting die pool, the maximum hits limit is increased by your Edge attribute. That is to say, it changes from [Force], to [Force + Edge].

Adepts; Improved Physical Attribute (Cost: 0.5 PP/level) Unlike in the core rules, this power does not affect the Karma cost for raising your attributes. It is, however, limited to giving a bonus no larger than half the unaugmented attribute (round down). That is to say, if you have an Agility of 4, you cannot benefit from more than two levels of “Increased Physical Attribute (Agility)”.

Adepts; Initiation and Power Points Adepts may forgo learning a Metamagic in order to gain an additional Power Point (without increasing their Magic rating). An Adept may have only as many power points as their Magic rating plus their Initiate Grade.

Mystic Adepts; Magic Rating Mystic Adepts use their full Magic Rating to determine the maximum rank of any Adept power, and to determine the maximum Force rating of spells they can cast. The split ratings are used to determine Sorcery and Conjury die pools (etc), and to determine both Initial and Maximum power points for adept powers.

Armor: Conversion to Stun damage Damage converts to stun only if the attack's DV is less than HALF the relevant armor rating.

Armor: Encumbrance The maximum value of armor you may wear before incurring Encumbrance is equal to Body + Strength, rather than twice your Body.

That is some really harsh technomancer nerfing. Has anyone actually played a technomancer under these rules and not been very sad about how much worse they are than a mundane hacker?

I've yet to run the game these are for, Umaro.

But to address each item in specific:

"Using Attributes" - given that Technomancers will have reasonable Will, Intuition, and Logic scores (since they derive their matrix attributes from them), I don't see that this will impact them any more than it does hackers.

"Security Tally" - doesn't seem any harsher on a Technomancer, than on a Hacker. Am I missing something?

"Complex Forms" - I was confused why you would think that this nerfs technomancers ... until I realised that it would apply Fading to them far, far too often. Thank you for helping me catch that, I shall change that part of it immediately to: "no fading up to Resonance, stun fading up to 2x resonance."



Again, thanks for catching the problem with Fading in that last rule. Always best to fix problems before they cause trouble ...!

Using attributes: under the core rules, no, technomancers really don't need Logic* much. It sets their maximum number of known CFs at chargen (3 is enough for almost everyone), and their System, which is only used by Technomancers in some really rare edge cases.

Also, hackers can easily pump their Logic with Cerebral Boosters; technomancers would have to take 'ware that costs them resonance. So it's only marginally limiting to hackers (who often want a decent logic anyways for synergy with Log-linked skill boosters and non-hacking Logic skills, and can get "enough that the hits cap doesn't matter" for a trivial investment, but harshly limiting to technomancers who have to struggle to get more than 5, and didn't even want 4 before anyways.

*It's not clear to me when Intuition or Willpower should actually be used to limit hits. They're still going to be the minority of tests anyways, though.

Security Tally is a big fuck you to technomancers because it removes Stealth from its main use, and being able to get huge Stealth ratings and thus be sneaky sneaky was the main thing technomancer hackers had going for them. If you look at what it does, Hackers effectively come out ahead unless they are breaking into milspec systems or running milspec stealth (and milspec systems will pretty much just auto-detect you no matter how rad you are anyways, under this rule).

CFs: Under that rule, you can't use a CF you don't know. At all. This basically means technomancers don't work; there's just too many CFs that you have to be able to at least sorta use in order to get jack squat done.

I'd be happy to offer some more constructive suggestions; I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish, though. I gather the Using Attributes thing is the classic solution-looking-for-a-problem of not wanting 1 logic hackers, but I'm not sure why you like the Security Tally or Complex Forms rules.

Hmm. That is a concern. The thing is, I want Logic to matter for Hackers (the first SR4 character I tried playing was a hacker, and discovering the hard way that his Logic of 5 didn't impact his ability to actually hack ... well, it still irks me.)


Hrm. I'll have to put some thought / re-thought into that one then.


... bugger, you're right about that. Damnit.



Obviously, my relative inexperience with 4E rules means I'm not seeing all the ramifications. (Thank god I already planned to go over them with everyone, and discuss any flaws/drawbacks the players wanted to bring up.) So okay, if you're going to volunteer some feedback ... let me explain my reasoning behind these three:

Attributes limiting success: I want attributes to matter for everyone, or at least, for as many of 'em as possible.

I think, though, that I have a workable solution for Technomancers: instead of hard-locking it to Logic, I'll set it to the Drain attribute of their Stream - IOW, Int, Cha, or Log. Whichever they're going to be naturally inclined to have at reasonably high levels. After all, I've already done the equivalent for the Arcana skill, so it's a logical next step.


Security Tally: it just makes sense to me that detecting an intruder should be an Extended Test, rather than a series of all-or-nothing gambles. You're right that Stealth should play a role, though. So ... what about adding the intruder's Stealth program (if any) to the Threshold for the tally? Would that work, do you think?


Complex Forms like Spells: Hmm. My main goal was to simplify building (and, I thought, playing) technomancers. Obviously, the effects I didn't realise would require houseruling in ways that would complicate actual play. So now I'm inclined to just toss this one entirely.

Oopsie!


Now I'm doubly thankful - to you for the feedback, and to Neraph for prompting me to post this thread in the first place.

(All of which means, I am now on v1.5a (draft 1), dated 19 June ... heh!)

My suggestions would be:

The "CFs like spells" rule is honestly terrible; if you don't have a strong conceptual reason for wanting it, it really shouldn't exist.

Attributes limiting success: the change you suggested is one I've seen elsewhere and is the least bad variant of the attributes for hacking thing I've seen. It doesn't really mess up the balance; you still have Logic stream being the best hybrids/generalists, Charisma being the best hackers, Intuition being the best riggers, and Willpower being the best at cutting themselves and wishing they had a better conceptual understanding of the matrix.

Security tally: I would probably make the Threshold based purely on Stealth, and fiddle with the formula a bit. My suggestion would be that the threshold is Stealth x 2, but that if any single roll ever gets more hits than your Stealth, you get caught immediately. It does change the tactics of hacking in some ways; it makes Hacking on the Fly comparatively better, and makes some tactics (like Disarming analyze or hacking yourself a better account after getting a hacked low-level account) bad ideas, and others (like hacking yourself multiple accounts and then going in sequence to do stuff, and making legitimate backdoor accounts) better ideas.

AHAHAHAHAH...hahahaha...heh....

sorry, i couldnt help it, that is AWESOME Umaro!

Right, then - CF-like-spells is gone. Drainas-limiting-attribute sounds workable. Security Tally ... eh. I think I'm just going to ditch it for now; I'm not THAT enamored of the idea. ^_^

And so v1.5b (draft 2) ... hehehe.

Could also just use resonance as the limiting attribute.

While we're at it:

1) Implant Maintanence is a pretty harsh nerf on a very specific concept (street samurai) that doesn't hit anyone else. It's also odd that better quality ware is harder to maintain. I might be inclined to make it 1% of the base (ie, before grade modifiers) cost. I also think it might just be too high and too punishing on a concept that's already got plenty of drawbacks compared to magic.

2) I can't find the "hard-hitting cyberlimbs" tweaking option. I assume it's just making them S/2+1 or S/2+2 or something, though.

3) If you're using the "Adepts and Gaesa" rule it might be a good idea to come up with some "acceptable/not acceptable" gaesa examples, based on my experience with that one.

4) I'd suggest moving Battle Rifles from "Standard" to "Reinforced" and HMGs from "Heavy" to "Reinforced." HMGs are only marginally better than MMGs or LMGs and don't even play in the same league as vehicle mounted weapons. Battle Rifles are actually better than LMGs and MMGs and really need to be in Reinforced.

5) Suppressive Fire: you probably want a "up to the maximum RC that the weapon can normally use" ie max of 9 for FA, 11 for HV, 14 for Miniguns; otherwise you get wierdness.

6) I'm not sure I'd be making SnS that good; it's already really good. I'd suggest -1S(e), not +1S(e). Half armor, +1 DV, and a bunch of side benefits makes it way too good.

7) Does IPA still cost double above unaugmented maximum?

I don't understand how an adept could get more PP than their Magic+Grade in the first place. Why do you need a rule restricting that?

Hmm. I'm actually looking for a "money sink" for the non-mages. But not just the Samurai.


Extreme bottom right of P23. Makes the unarmed damage of a cyberlimb (STR+2)P. After all, if you have a cyberlimb it is kind of like having brass knuckles (or hardliner gloves) permanently installed.


Good advice, thanks.


I'll give them a closer look.


Good point, so noted, and so done.


I hadn't wanted to nerf it too far from the 6S(e) you coud already throw out of Light and Heavy pistols ...


No. It works like an augment to that attribute, period.


No particular reason - just an urge to close that door "just in case".

Can you elaborate on the money sink thing a bit? What do you mean by "non-mages" - do you include Adepts and Technomancers? What do you mean by "money sink" - do you mean, like, a consistent drain on resources? Why don't mages need one?

Re: SnS: Even at -1S(e), SnS is still a competitive ammo type. +1S(e) makes it the go-to ammo type and you only load other things occasionally for specific purposes. SnS really does need a nerf; keep in mind that it's not like light pistols with SnS are now useless; 3S(e) isn't much but it still forces a Don't Tase Me Bro check, it still applies the -2 electrical penalty, and you still can stage it up with burst-fire and net hits.

In the most convenient order:

Read "mages" as "the Awakened". And I guess I would include Technomancers in that - they aren't Awakened in the magical sense, but their interactions with Karma-versus-Nuyen is similar.

And perhaps I'm just showing my age, but in prior editions at least, the Samurai had an easier time upgrading themselves, compared to Mages: they could spend Karma on some skills, then spend nuyen to improve their implants.


Good points, good points.

For the Security Tally we have a House Rule based on the side-bar... This is what we use:



When I wrote this we were still discussing house rules, we opted for #2 and hacker rolling Stealth only. It's worked pretty well for us so far.

-D

That's not all that true anymore - the main thing is that mages get better over time more than Samurai, and the augmentation tax would make this worse.

Hmm, I'll accept that on faith then, Umaro, and drop that optional from the list.

See, this is why I like forums: I can tap into the collective experience of MANY minds beyond merely my own!

Regarding the money sink: how often do you plan on collecting your players' lifestyle costs? AFAIK, it's one mission per month, so lifestyle should be factored in. Also, make sure that your players do the bookkeeping correctly; Mundane characters in particular spend a great deal of their income on ammunition and disguises, while everyone needs new fake sins and disposable comlinks on a semi-regular basis.

In my experience, Sammies advance very slowly in play, since higher grade 'ware is prohibitively expensive.

I would third Umarov and Elfenlied, compared to awakened characters mundanes can only expect big jumps in performance when they can upgrade/add to their 'ware. Because of this, awakened characters tend to be more cash-rich than their mundane counterparts, and get a pretty decent power boost every time they initiate and/or raise their Magic.

Some interesting ideas going on in this thread.
I'll just say this though -

Do you not like the optional serious wounds/heavy damage rules in AU? Really?
They're my favourites.

Page number?

Augmentation, Pages 120-122...

Oh, hey, look at that; I never noticed those before. Time to put more thought into things, and figure out if that seems right for me to use, or not.

Redundant: page 126, SR4A, has made Chemistry a Technical Active Skill.

You've inspired me to keep working on my House-Rules/Template for the SR4 rules that morphs it into a completely different thing. I'll try to get it finished soon enough.

EDIT: I also highly suggest this: all Direct Combat Spell drain is +4, all Indirect Combat Spell drain is -2. It makes Indirect spells more attractive and common while still allowing Direct to be useful without being the default.

And before someone mentions it: no, the adding net hits to drain rule is a terrible failure of an idea forged in the flames of failed math classes and tempered in the tears of failed D&D clone designers. You don't want to use it.

Cool.



I'm not sure abut making that large of a change. Maybe +2/-1. But for now, I want to see how it works out without the change.






Oh, that one I already know.

I've tinkered with the numbers and the -2 Indirect/+4 Direct is the one that makes the most significant without adding a new mechanic like UmaroVi pointed out the flaws of. If that's too steep, the Direct can be a +2 or +3, but what we're effectively doing is swapping the -2 Direct and +2 Indirect spell options from Street Magic, which ends up in a 4 point shift (-2 to 0 to +2).

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I think Direct/Indirect isn't a modifier at all, and it's Elemental that's +2. That's in line with Elemental single-targets being f/2+3 and Powerbolt being f/2+1.

I think what you would want to do is switch those (so -2 Indirect/+2 Direct, which also makes Punch/Clout/Blast a bit less of a sad failure of a spell), and also remove that -1 for doing Stun damage.

Ueah, see, to houserule spell drains the way I would want them? Would basically require me to completely re-do those drain formulae. And I'm already feeling a bit uncomfortable with how many houserules I still have, so ... yeah. Not this time around.

Bleh. I haven't checked the book in quite some time. You're right, there's an Elemental Effect modifier, not a Direct/Indirect (I was blurring Elemental and Mana/Physical in my memory).

However, with your proposed hotfix (which is one I was using until I changed it to -2/+4):
Indirect Single Target Elemental spells are (F/2) + 1, the same as the (still superior) Stunbolt. With mine, Stunbolt would be (F/2) + 3 (and, admittedly, Powerbolt would be a hefty [F/2] + 5 and Powerball a painful [F/2] + 7).

I actually think that's OK. There's already reasons to use elemental spells; Stunbolt being superior versus living targets that you don't need to kill asap is fine with me, I just don't like how enormously superior it is now.