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CrystalBlue
So...I love the idea of protecting my team from magical threats and counterspelling is one of the primary skills that I would need to take for that. What I don't know is how it's used. The rules have make my brain hurt each time I read them. Once, I thought my rating was a bonus I gave everyone when they were attacked, so long as I was able to see them. Then, I found out that there's a roll I have to make when counterspelling. So...maybe get some clarification? Do you have to turn on the counterspelling? Is there an active and a passive counterspelling? What's the deal?

I have a Magic of 6 and a Rating of 3, with a specialization of Combat Spells. What happens when:

-- A party member I can see is attacked with a spell and I'm not 'actively' counterspelling
-- A party member I can see is attacked with a spell and I'm actively counterspelling
-- A party member is attacked with a spell from the astral and I can see them only in the physical.
-- A party member is attacked with a spell from the astral and I can see them in the astral.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Jun 22 2012, 11:48 AM) *
I have a Magic of 6 and a Rating of 3, with a specialization of Combat Spells. What happens when:

1) A party member I can see is attacked with a spell and I'm not 'actively' counterspelling
2) A party member I can see is attacked with a spell and I'm actively counterspelling
3) A party member is attacked with a spell from the astral and I can see them only in the physical.
4) A party member is attacked with a spell from the astral and I can see them in the astral.


1) the party member does NOT get the benefit of your counterspell
2) you roll your counterspelling, and they add your hits to their resist roll

3 & 4 I am a little fuzzy on

Edit - Passive counterspelling affects only yourself and is automatic, Active Counterspelling takes a free action. So in the case of #1, if you have a free action left that you havent used, you would be able to declare it at that time and provide them the benefits of your counterspelling.
Neraph
Some general facts about Counterspelling:

1) You always get Counterspelling for yourself, unless surprised (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, last sentence).

2) Use of Counterspelling on anyone else requires a Free Action or Delaying your Action (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, second and third sentence) and they must remain in LoS (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, fourth sentence).

3) If one ally is targeted by a spell and you are Counterspelling them, they add your Counterspelling dice to their roll (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, second paragraph, first sentence).

4) If multiple allies are targeted by a spell and you are Counterspelling them, you roll the Counterspelling Dice and any hits are added to theirs on their Resistance Rolls (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, second paragraph, last sentence).

5) This is different than using Counterspelling against a pre-existing spell, in which you make your Counterspelling Test to remove successes from their spell in order to end the effect SR4A, page 185, Dispelling Sustained Spells).

I hope that helps with general information, I'll now answer your specifics:

A) They roll only their Resistance - you did not declare the use of Counterspelling for them, taking a Free Action, so they do not get your Counterspelling. See 2, above.

B) See 2, above.

C and D) Spells do not transverse the planar boundary. Unless your teammate is Dual-Natured (s)he cannot be targeted with spells from the Astral (SR4A, page 183, Step 3: Choose the Target(s), third paragraph). In the event that they are Dual-Natured (have the Dual-Natured Power or are Astrally Perceiving), Counterspelling follows the same rules as above; you must spend a Free Action or Hold your Action to declare Counterspelling on them and they must remain within LoS of you.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 22 2012, 12:45 PM) *
A) They roll only their Resistance - you did not declare the use of Counterspelling for them, taking a Free Action, so they do not get your Counterspelling. See 2, above.


On this one Neraph, if they had not yet used their free action they could use it at that time could they not? I believe you can use a free action at any time during an initiative pass, correct me if I am wrong of course (no books at work, BOOO)
Neraph
Here is what I referred:

QUOTE (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, second and third sentence)
To do this, the magician must spend a Free Action and declare who she is protecting. If Counterspelling was not declared in advance, it may not be used to defend others, unless the magician has delayed his action (see Delayed Actions, p. 145).

Interestingly you can use a Free Action at any point in the IP (SR4A, page 146, Free Actions) and yet the rules for Counterspelling specifically mention Delayed Actions, which you would not need to declare; that is, the magician would not need to declare that they are Delaying their Action for using Counterspelling as they could simply use their unused Free Action. Just make sure you don't use your Free Action for that IP.

EDIT: Edited for comprehension.
Falconer
Neraph... you have this one dead wrong.

Reread the counterspelling section. The free action is not to do counterspelling... it's to *CHANGE* the list of who is currently being protected by counterspelling. *IF* they leave your field of view... they lose counterspelling (a big reason to always stuff the mage in the back!). This declaration is valid for all time until they leave your field of view. You may counterspell with no action and without even realize that you're doing it... (read the bit about the mage's roll to even realize he's protected someone at all with counterspelling!)

At any time the character COULD USE his free action... which is *NOT* at any point during the IP!!!. A character can only use a free action in his combat phase OR LATER in an initiative pass. Translation, you can only declare changes in counterspelling in response to someone with a LOWER initiative than yours! (winning initiative is still important). The only way to protect someone against someone else acting higher in initiative than you is to either spend edge to act first... (you get your action phase. and leave your free action unspent)... or delay your action from the first IP into the second (wasting your second action if you have one, but effectively allowing you to go at any time in the 2nd IP... first or just before/simultaneously with someone else). Or you need to declare counterspelling on your turn in the 1st pass at which point they're protected until they leave your field of view.

You make the declaration of when you're using your delayed action phase BEFORE someone else acts... so if you're delayed and you chose NOT to act either before or simultaneously with the other mage. Too bad... it's too late to change declaration your action phase has not come up.



Crystal:
Case 1a: Someone beat you on initiative and you haven't declared counterspelling IN ADVANCE for the target... they're out of luck. No bonus dice for them.
Case 1b: Someone acting AFTER you in initiative casts and you still have a free action remaining. You can use the free action to declare counterspelling for anyone inside your field of view. Then add your counterspelling dice to their resistance test.

Case 2: They get bonus dice equal to your counterspelling. No more actions required (you've already declared the list of protected victims in advance... free action is to change this list)

Case 3: You protect the victim. You have valid LOS.. the victim is the recipient of the protection. The victim would need to be astrally active in some way (astral perception or dual natured to be present on both planes at once).

Case 4: You protect the victim. You again have valid LOS... and you're both already by definition both astrally active. (you can't attack mundanes directly from the astral with spells).
Umidori
I seem to have read the 3rd and 4th questions differently than everyone else.

QUOTE
3) A party member is attacked with a spell from the astral and I can see them only in the physical.

I took this to mean Ally Steve is astrally projecting, and the player can only see his physical body, not his astral form. I would assume that while you could Counterspell physical spells directed at Steve's empty physical body, you cannot counterspell astral spells directed at his astral form standing three feet away.

QUOTE
4) A party member is attacked with a spell from the astral and I can see them in the astral.

I took this to mean Ally Steve is astrally projecting, and the player CAN see his astral form via active Astral Perception. This case is somewhat trickier, because while you can't view the Astral and the Physical at the same time, the Astral still shows the Physical, albeit in the form of astral shadows. I don't know what the proper way to rule this would be.

You'd definitely be able to counterspell against astral spells for Ally Steve's astral form (as you are both astrally active and in astral LOS), but could you also counterspell against physical spells for Ally Steve's physical body? Because you can see it, or at least the shadow of it. And all spells, even Physical Spells, appear on the Astral as well. And what about the fact that counterspelling is described as jamming the ambient mana, and that you can counterspell against threats you aren't even aware of? Just going with my gut, I would assume you could counterspell for Ally Steve's physical body, but I really can't say for sure.

~Umi
Falconer
Umi, in both cases I'd still argue for for...

Because it helps prevent spells from being overpowered. If I could bypass counterspelling simply by switching my spellcasting from astral to physical and vice versa in some cases it would open a door for abuse. Counterspelling is one of the things which keeps mages from running rampant I'd rather not see it nerfed indirectly.

Also... the reason is that the counterspelling goes to the recipient... it's not directly against the spell. It's to the recipient... and then the recipient resisting the spell. (which the mage may or may not even realizing is being counterspelled).

Also, in the idea of the rule of simplicity... provided I have a valid astral <-> astral, or physical <-> physical LOS path counterspelling should apply. It's awkward to try and word it differently, and awkward to apply.

CrystalBlue
Thanks for the replies. I think I'm understanding it somewhat. What I'm not getting is why the difference between counterspelling one person and counterspelling a number of people.

In an initative pass....

Me
PC Steve
Bad Guy Mage
PC Frank
Bad Guy Shaman

First time around, I'm counterspelling and have listed Steve and Frank as my targets. Bad Guy Mage throws a Powerbolt at Steve. I have 6 Magic, 3 Counterspelling with Speced Combat Spells. So, I would add 5 dice to his resistance test? Next, Bad Guy Shaman throws a Stunbolt at Frank. Do I continue to add my 5 dice to Frank or, since I counterspelled Steve, I can't add it? And let's say next phase, Bad Guy Mage throws a Powerball next and hits me, Steve, and Frank. Since I have the 6 Magic and 5 against combat spells...do I roll 11 dice and add the successes as modifiers to Me, Steve, and Frank? Or do I automatically get five, since I am always directly counterspelling myself and I only roll for Steve and Frank?

It seems that someone with a high skill is going to be good at counterspelling themselves and one target, but not groups of targets, and a person with a high magic and low skill can counterspell for group targets really well (because of the potential of more hits on the test going higher then their actual skill) then they are at point defense.
Falconer
I see your confusion... you're thinking of the old spell pool from earlier editions where it cost dice to counterspell anything... so most mages just went Fuck'it and went balls to the wall offense and nuked things before they got nuked.

No the spell pool was removed from SR4... (all pools were. a shame really. I liked pools).

Your counterspelling bonuses remain valid to everyone you've declared until such time as something happens to stop them from receiving it. (they leave LOS, you declare new list of protectees not including, you got geeked (hey it's in the book kill the mage first!)).

For single target spells... the character only adds dice... (which is really nice if he spends edge to reroll... as he rerolls all the dice).
For multi-target spells... *YOU* roll *ONLY* counterspelling. (IE: your 3 +2 dice). Then all of you roll body to resist the spell (powerball is resisted by body not willpower).


Counterspelling + Magic is only rolled for dispelling a sustained effect (or a permanent one being sustained before permanency). IE: the opposing mage has increase reflexes cast on him.... you can roll Magic + counterspelling to target the spell and reduce the number of successes (and then suffer drain as if you had cast the spell in the first place). So if BadGuyMage had increase reflexes force 3 with 3 successes... you *DISPEL* (using dispel to avoid confusion with counterspell defense)... you roll 2 successes... he only has 1 success left... he only gets a single pass (1 success) while still having the sustaining penalty. Now you roll off against 3/2+2==3 drain force 3.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Small Nitpick, Falconer, with your example above. Increased Reflexes requires two Net hits to function at all, so reducing 3 hits to 1 hit effectively cancels the spell as 1 net hit does absolutely nothing. smile.gif
Falconer
It was intentional!. All the drawbacks of sustaining the spell.... the enemy caster needs to spend an action to drop it to eliminate the penalty.

The spell is still there.. and it's still functioning... it simply doesn't have enough successes to do anything... with 1 spell still casts but no effect... 2... +1pass +1 init, 3... 4+ +3pass +3init.


The threshold is merely to determine the effectiveness of the spell... dropping it below it's minimum to provide bonuses doesn't necessarily cancel the spell. It just doesn't do anything. It's not as if we're trying to use it on a 'rock' or something with with object resistance 1.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 07:40 AM) *
It was intentional!. All the drawbacks of sustaining the spell.... the enemy caster needs to spend an action to drop it to eliminate the penalty.

The spell is still there.. and it's still functioning... it simply doesn't have enough successes to do anything... with 1 spell still casts but no effect... 2... +1pass +1 init, 3... 4+ +3pass +3init.


The threshold is merely to determine the effectiveness of the spell... dropping it below it's minimum to provide bonuses doesn't necessarily cancel the spell. It just doesn't do anything. It's not as if we're trying to use it on a 'rock' or something with with object resistance 1.


You are indeed correct, I just wanted to point out that the spell was ineffective at that point. Sorry for jumping on your bandwagon. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 22 2012, 02:12 PM) *
Neraph... you have this one dead wrong.
[ Spoiler ]

Crystal:
Case 1a: Someone beat you on initiative and you haven't declared counterspelling IN ADVANCE for the target... they're out of luck. No bonus dice for them.
Case 1b: Someone acting AFTER you in initiative casts and you still have a free action remaining. You can use the free action to declare counterspelling for anyone inside your field of view. Then add your counterspelling dice to their resistance test.

Case 2: They get bonus dice equal to your counterspelling. No more actions required (you've already declared the list of protected victims in advance... free action is to change this list)

Case 3: You protect the victim. You have valid LOS.. the victim is the recipient of the protection. The victim would need to be astrally active in some way (astral perception or dual natured to be present on both planes at once).

Case 4: You protect the victim. You again have valid LOS... and you're both already by definition both astrally active. (you can't attack mundanes directly from the astral with spells).

Ok, first take a sedative and re-read what I posted. I specifically posted reference pages, even down to the paragraph and sentence so that people could read the rules as they appear. I provided a synopsis that (admittedly) is a(n over)generalization about the rule, a paraphrase, not the exact specifics of said rule. I will cede that you cannot use a Free Action until you have acted, but again, that's why I posted the exact page reference.

I disagree with your interpretation of a "Counterspelling list." Skill use in SR4A states that you have to take a certain action in order to use a skill (SR4A, page 118, Active Skills; and specifically SR4A, page 122, Magical Active Skills [for example: complex action for melee or simple action for SA firing guns]) and that the action required to use Counterspelling is a Free Action (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, second and third sentences [in fact, in the third sentence it specifically states you can't use Counterspelling on a group if you didn't declare it using a Free Action]) unless you are using it on yourself (SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, last sentence). Please provide reference for this "list" of yours, if it exists, otherwise your number 2 answer is incorrect.

QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 22 2012, 05:10 PM) *
You'd definitely be able to counterspell against astral spells for Ally Steve's astral form (as you are both astrally active and in astral LOS), but could you also counterspell against physical spells for Ally Steve's physical body? Because you can see it, or at least the shadow of it. And all spells, even Physical Spells, appear on the Astral as well. And what about the fact that counterspelling is described as jamming the ambient mana, and that you can counterspell against threats you aren't even aware of? Just going with my gut, I would assume you could counterspell for Ally Steve's physical body, but I really can't say for sure.

~Umi

Yes because you can still use Perception Tests while Astrally Perceiving (SR4A, page 191, Astral Perception, sixth paragraph).

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 09:40 AM) *
It was intentional!. All the drawbacks of sustaining the spell.... the enemy caster needs to spend an action to drop it to eliminate the penalty.

The spell is still there.. and it's still functioning... it simply doesn't have enough successes to do anything... with 1 spell still casts but no effect... 2... +1pass +1 init, 3... 4+ +3pass +3init.


The threshold is merely to determine the effectiveness of the spell... dropping it below it's minimum to provide bonuses doesn't necessarily cancel the spell. It just doesn't do anything. It's not as if we're trying to use it on a 'rock' or something with with object resistance 1.

I'm not sure about that. What happens when you cast a spell that requires a certain number of hits and you do not get those hits? The spell fails, right (SR4A, page 183, Step 5: Determine Effect, second paragraph, last sentence)? You still take the drain from casting the spell, but the spell was ineffective. The same would happen if you reduce the number of successes on a Sustained spell below the operational limit - it would no longer be a valid spell, and as such it would not take effect (or end its effect).
Falconer
No... you need a success test to beat object resistance... if you don't meet that then by definition the spell fails and never took place.

If you drop a spell below the required number of successes to beat object resistance it fails obviously... but this isn't object resistance. It's simply margin of success, you need at least a margin of 2 for increase ref.

Another character (like the mage) doesn't have object resistance... only the spell requires a certain number of successes to achieve certain performance thresholds. So long as there's at least 1 success... and that success is enough to beat object resistance... I don't see why the spell would automatically fail, it just would be there but ineffectual.



As far as counterspelling... it takes an action to DISPEL (complex) a sustained spell. Counterspelling is automatically used against spells as they're being cast. The specifics... point me at any location in there that requres the mage to expend an action to protect allies from hostile magic. This isn't 3rd or earlier anymore where he had to pull dice out of his spellpool to do it.


Just like perception you use in your example... when anyone does anything you get perception checks FOR FREE to notice... (such as noticing which windows the gangers are shooting you from if it's not immediately obvious... you do not need to use an action to do a perception check... if they're actively firing at you and you notice them. (or if your GM just calls for everyone to make checks). Or lets take other examples of opposed skill checks... if someone forces you to make a vehicle test... you make the test it does not use up your action. If someone attacks you in melee, you automatically use your melee skill in the defense it does not take an action. Or are you going to claim they all take actions too and for some mystical reason counterspelling is different?!


Please explain to me, HOW a mage can counterspell without knowing he's doing it, if he needs to use an action to do it?!

Free action "Declare counterspelling protection: A magician who wishes to protect others with counterspelling (p. 185) must spend a Free Action and declare it *IN ADVANCE*"

p185... upper right never says anything about any further actions required.

It says simply to add the counterspelling as a dicepool mod to the spell victim.. or to roll it once aggregately for victims.

And then there's this gem... "Note that Counterspelling is not “used up” after it defends against a spell—it continues to protect the designated characters against other spells until the magician decides to end it."

Next paragraph... magician can even defend against spells he isnt' even aware are being used or cast! GM should roll intuition + magic (3) test in secret to let the mage know if he even noticed the defense! How is a mage to do this if it requires the mage using up an action?! (nasty mechanical problem that).


So yes Neraph... you have this completely wrong, I can only guess that you're basing this on prior editions where counterspelling protection did require action on the mages part.
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 01:58 PM) *
No... you need a success test to beat object resistance... if you don't meet that then by definition the spell fails and never took place.

If you drop a spell below the required number of successes to beat object resistance it fails obviously... but this isn't object resistance. It's simply margin of success, you need at least a margin of 2 for increase ref.

Another character (like the mage) doesn't have object resistance... only the spell requires a certain number of successes to achieve certain performance thresholds. So long as there's at least 1 success... and that success is enough to beat object resistance... I don't see why the spell would automatically fail, it just would be there but ineffectual.

Wrong. It's like you don't even read the exact parts of the books I quote. SR4A, page 183, Step 5: Determine Effect, second paragraph, last sentence. If a spell does not have at least one net success, the spell fails. Read it. Be corrected. In fact, I never even mentioned Object Resistance - you really need to stop using Red Herring Fallacies. Not only that, but you stated that people don't have Object Resistance and yet then say that one success is enough to beat their Object Resistance - a clearly illogical statement.

This is exactly why I quote references. You should get in the habit that way you have authority to back you up. Right now it is your flawed memory of the rules versus the actual rules that I am posting direct references to.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 01:58 PM) *
As far as counterspelling... it takes an action to DISPEL (complex) a sustained spell. Counterspelling is automatically used against spells as they're being cast. The specifics... point me at any location in there that requres the mage to expend an action to protect allies from hostile magic. This isn't 3rd or earlier anymore where he had to pull dice out of his spellpool to do it.

I did - on more than one occasion. You don't read my posts fully and you certainly don't check the references I give for my statements. Here it is again: SR4A, page 118, Active Skills; and specifically SR4A, page 122, Magical Active Skills; SR4A, page 185, Spell Defense, first paragraph, second and third sentences (in fact, in the third sentence it specifically states you can't use Counterspelling on a group if you didn't declare it using a Free Action).

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 01:58 PM) *
Just like perception you use in your example... when anyone does anything you get perception checks FOR FREE to notice... (such as noticing which windows the gangers are shooting you from if it's not immediately obvious... you do not need to use an action to do a perception check... if they're actively firing at you and you notice them. (or if your GM just calls for everyone to make checks). Or lets take other examples of opposed skill checks... if someone forces you to make a vehicle test... you make the test it does not use up your action. If someone attacks you in melee, you automatically use your melee skill in the defense it does not take an action. Or are you going to claim they all take actions too and for some mystical reason counterspelling is different?!

Wrong. Perception specifically states that in its description, which is how we know how to use skills. Same thing for melee combat. I've posted the page references above - figure it out.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 01:58 PM) *
Please explain to me, HOW a mage can counterspell without knowing he's doing it, if he needs to use an action to do it?!

Free action "Declare counterspelling protection: A magician who wishes to protect others with counterspelling (p. 185) must spend a Free Action and declare it *IN ADVANCE*"

p185... upper right never says anything about any further actions required.

It says simply to add the counterspelling as a dicepool mod to the spell victim.. or to roll it once aggregately for victims.

And then there's this gem... "Note that Counterspelling is not “used up” after it defends against a spell—it continues to protect the designated characters against other spells until the magician decides to end it."

Next paragraph... magician can even defend against spells he isnt' even aware are being used or cast! GM should roll intuition + magic (3) test in secret to let the mage know if he even noticed the defense! How is a mage to do this if it requires the mage using up an action?! (nasty mechanical problem that).


So yes Neraph... you have this completely wrong, I can only guess that you're basing this on prior editions where counterspelling protection did require action on the mages part.

No, I don't have this wrong at all. I've only ever played 4th Edition (I played a MUSH of 3rd, but never saw any rulebooks), so I am most certainly not basing this off of prior editions.

I've posted how skills work above. As soon as you comprehend that you can continue on to this: when the Initiative Pass is complete and you get a new action, you need to re-declare skills that you are going to use in that Pass. This means you will need to re-declare Counterspelling. The reason the "gem" you found is in there is to take care of instances where those who are Counterspelled interact with multiple spells per Initiative Pass. Also, the (in)ability to Counterspell if you are aware or not is a Red Herring fallacy, as I've never refuted it.
Psikerlord
We play counterspelling as declare free action, then its "on" until the protectees leave the mage's LOS for an significant period (not just walking briefly behind a pillar and then reappearing other side, or similar).

So in our game counterspelling is "on" most of the time, unless protectees are completely behind a wall, hidden from their mage, or similar. As far as I can tell this is how it's supposed to be. And even if not, magic is already powerful in SR4, there are good balance reasons to make spell defence easier rather than harder.

Falconer
No Neraph.. I have read everything you posted.. You insist on pulling things out of your nether regions without quoting nor explaining your train of thought. *YOU* need to point out exactly where it says you need to redeclare which skills you're going to use again. It's in direct contradiction to the clear text of page 185.

P118... active skills SAYS NOTHING relevant. Explain if you think I'm missing something
p123... again says nothing, in fact it directly refers to p185 *WHICH I CITED*
p144... details the turn order and initiative... declaring actions has nothing to do with when the completed free action ends.
p179... which you ignored under 'free actions'... merely says to declare in advance the counterspelling... references p185 for more details
p183... which you also cite.. NEVER ONCE MENTIONS COUNTERSPELLING BEING DROPPED... it only says to add it (if available) as a dice pool modifier to resistance for living targets... then refers again to p185.

So now we're in a classic case of all roads lead to Rome... every bit says to refer to p185... which you willfully ignore then claim I'm ignorant and ignoring you when I'm trying to understand by what warped reading you're getting from A -> B.

p185... "A magician must spend a free action to declare in advance." Fine... mages action phase comes up he's in the back and declares counterspelling for all his allies in front of him... this declaration remains valid until he spends another free action to change it (or people leave his LOS). A mage should heavily consider adrenaline surge, investing in high initiative, or spending edge to go first... if getting these things done first all the time is important to his team.
p185... If not declared in advance, simply reiterates the delayed action rules... for acting simultaneously or before another person (even one with higher initiative by delaying your earlier action phase into the next initiative pass... and losing any action phase you already have in that pass if any by doing so). This is the only way to react to someone with higher initiative than yourself without using edge. (similarly you must decide PRIOR to his action whether you're acting before, or simultaneously with him; you can't interrupt someone elses action phase mid stream with a delayed action short of declaring you're acting simultaneously with this person). p144 3. Begin Action Phase. Even the free action section makes it clear they can only be spent in your action phase or later in the initiative pass. (drop prone and full defense provide explicit exceptions but still don't allow you to use them while surprised)
p185... How long does counterspelling last... paragraph 4... "It is not used up..." "it continues to protect designated targets against other spells *UNTIL THE MAGICIAN DECIDES TO END IT*". How does he decide to end it... he uses another free action to change his counterspelling declaration. Any reading that this is novel... and only allow it to extend to the end of the initiative pass is directly contradicted by the capitalized text above. And also not supported by p144 action phase.

I use a free action to activate a vehicles sensors... how long do they stay turned on.. until I spend another free action to turn them off. The above is completely consistent with all other actions in the game.


So once again you're pulling things out of thin air... refuse cite me chapter and verse except to say this sentence one and two... when those sentences don't even back up your assertion in any way shape or form. Where does it ever say that counterspelling is different and requires an action every IP by the mage. It's not in any of the rules sections you mention. No rules cites, no nothing, just you making things up then calling me names because I'm calling you out to put up or shut up.

In a thread where a newbie is asking a question, yes I do take a strict RAW and normally go out of my way to also point out where there is disagreement on grey areas. This is *NOT* a grey area I've ever seen argued or even played differently ever! Why I feel the burden of proof is on you to explain yourself and your logic in better detail. This is you asserting house rules as RAW yet again Neraph.


The rules are clear and explicit... in order to provide active counterspelling defense against spells as they're being cast. You must spend a free action to declare before the other mage acts.
The declaration is valid for as long as you keep the targets in sight until the mage decides to drop it (using another free action to amend his counterspelling list).
Nowhere does the text state that the counterspelling free action must be repeated every IP. Nor is it inferred.
None of this contravenes any of the printed material... and you haven't cited me once in any of the above where anything I've said is inaccurate or contradicts the clearly printed text of the counterspelling or actions pages.
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 11:13 PM) *
No Neraph.. I have read everything you posted.. You insist on pulling things out of your nether regions without quoting nor explaining your train of thought. *YOU* need to point out exactly where it says you need to redeclare which skills you're going to use again. It's in direct contradiction to the clear text of page 185.

P118... active skills SAYS NOTHING relevant. Explain if you think I'm missing something
p123... again says nothing, in fact it directly refers to p185 *WHICH I CITED*
p144... details the turn order and initiative... declaring actions has nothing to do with when the completed free action ends.
p179... which you ignored under 'free actions'... merely says to declare in advance the counterspelling... references p185 for more details
p183... which you also cite.. NEVER ONCE MENTIONS COUNTERSPELLING BEING DROPPED... it only says to add it (if available) as a dice pool modifier to resistance for living targets... then refers again to p185.

So now we're in a classic case of all roads lead to Rome... every bit says to refer to p185... which you willfully ignore then claim I'm ignorant and ignoring you when I'm trying to understand by what warped reading you're getting from A -> B.

p185... "A magician must spend a free action to declare in advance." Fine... mages action phase comes up he's in the back and declares counterspelling for all his allies in front of him... this declaration remains valid until he spends another free action to change it (or people leave his LOS). A mage should heavily consider adrenaline surge, investing in high initiative, or spending edge to go first... if getting these things done first all the time is important to his team.
p185... If not declared in advance, simply reiterates the delayed action rules... for acting simultaneously or before another person (even one with higher initiative by delaying your earlier action phase into the next initiative pass... and losing any action phase you already have in that pass if any by doing so). This is the only way to react to someone with higher initiative than yourself without using edge. (similarly you must decide PRIOR to his action whether you're acting before, or simultaneously with him; you can't interrupt someone elses action phase mid stream with a delayed action short of declaring you're acting simultaneously with this person). p144 3. Begin Action Phase. Even the free action section makes it clear they can only be spent in your action phase or later in the initiative pass. (drop prone and full defense provide explicit exceptions but still don't allow you to use them while surprised)
p185... How long does counterspelling last... paragraph 4... "It is not used up..." "it continues to protect designated targets against other spells *UNTIL THE MAGICIAN DECIDES TO END IT*". How does he decide to end it... he uses another free action to change his counterspelling declaration. Any reading that this is novel... and only allow it to extend to the end of the initiative pass is directly contradicted by the capitalized text above. And also not supported by p144 action phase.

So when you state that you shoot someone, you continue shooting them until you declare you stop shooting them? When you cast a spell, you continue casting spells every turn until either you get knocked out from drain or you declare you stop casting spells? It is completely without logic to state that when you use Counterspelling you continue providing it without using an action - that makes it different from every other skill in the game. The reason I quoted those other sections was largely because they included all other skills; I was showing you how skills work period, and then showing you the rules for Counterspelling, which state that it takes a Free Action to use (unless used on yourself) for Spell Defense.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 11:13 PM) *
I use a free action to activate a vehicles sensors... how long do they stay turned on.. until I spend another free action to turn them off. The above is completely consistent with all other actions in the game.

You cannot use vehicle sensors, which are equipment, as a parallel for skills. This is an invalid Red Herring fallacy.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 11:13 PM) *
So once again you're pulling things out of thin air... refuse cite me chapter and verse except to say this sentence one and two... when those sentences don't even back up your assertion in any way shape or form. Where does it ever say that counterspelling is different and requires an action every IP by the mage. It's not in any of the rules sections you mention. No rules cites, no nothing, just you making things up then calling me names because I'm calling you out to put up or shut up.

I enjoy how you state that I do not use rules citations even though I point to the exact sentence I refer. It is, exactly as I've cited before and have no desire to cite again, like any other skill use. You cannot get a free use of a skill without an action; for example, you have to declare that you are shooting a gun for it to happen, and you have to use a skill to punch someone in the face. Likewise, you need to declare using Counterspelling as Spell Defense, which requires a Free Action, and lasts throughout the Initiative Pass (parallel to declaring a Full Defense/Full Parry/Full Dodge). When your next action comes and you do not declare Counterspelling and do not use a Free Action for it, guess what happens? You don't get it, just like you don't get to shoot someone you didn't declare you were going to and didn't use an action to shoot, and just like you don't get to cast that spell and use an action to cast a spell, and just like you don't get to use First Aid without declaring it and using an action for.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 23 2012, 11:13 PM) *
In a thread where a newbie is asking a question, yes I do take a strict RAW and normally go out of my way to also point out where there is disagreement on grey areas. This is *NOT* a grey area I've ever seen argued or even played differently ever! Why I feel the burden of proof is on you to explain yourself and your logic in better detail. This is you asserting house rules as RAW yet again Neraph.


The rules are clear and explicit... in order to provide active counterspelling defense against spells as they're being cast. You must spend a free action to declare before the other mage acts.
The declaration is valid for as long as you keep the targets in sight until the mage decides to drop it (using another free action to amend his counterspelling list).
Nowhere does the text state that the counterspelling free action must be repeated every IP. Nor is it inferred.
None of this contravenes any of the printed material... and you haven't cited me once in any of the above where anything I've said is inaccurate or contradicts the clearly printed text of the counterspelling or actions pages.

I enjoy how you state that I do not use rules citations even though I point to the exact sentence I refer. I want you to show me where the rules state that you get to use a skill without declaring an action (aside from, in some cases, Perception). You even need to spend an action to drive a car. How can it even come into your mind that you do not have to declare an action to continue Counterspelling but you must declare using Automatics, Pistols, or Spellcasting every time?

In short: logical disconnect.

In any event, I see this discussion with you as not only a stalemate but also an escalating confrontation. Consider my point not only exceedingly well made but now finished.
Falconer
Actually yes I can use vehicle sensors as an analog... active sensor targetting...
I do something it remains valid until the target breaks lock. Counterspelling, I DECLARE IN ADVANCE who I'm protecting... it remains valid UNTIL THEY MOVE OUT OF SIGHT (or I declare again and drop them)... how long is the declaration in advance valid... "UNTIL THE MAGE DECIDES TO END IT".

There are MANY actions which require only action once then stay valid until something changes them. Since you insist on gun combat examples... switching firing mode on a smartgun is a free action also... it remains valid until you change it again. To use your own logical argument, I'd need to declare every round which firing mode I'm firing on. Which is clearly absurd, the logic is the same... you can't discount an entire paragraph of the rules just because you don't like it.

You SIMPLY REFUSE to acknowledge the clear text on p185 which includes counterspelling as part of this Neraph. You simply bring up general rules guidelines AND IGNORE THE SPECIFIC RULES ON PAGE 185 which every other one references.

You can't find me any cite... counterspelling IS NOT LIKE FIRING A GUN. So you keep bringing up false analogies then accuse me of using lousy debating tactics... when you don't even know how to debate properly nor argue rules. Simply quoting large points of text and saying lots of nothing doesn't make an argument.

Simply pointing at a sentence which IS NOT EVEN GERMANE and says NOTHING CONTRARY TO WHAT I"VE ASSERTED does not make an argument.
CrystalBlue
Ok...oh. I did not intend to start a debate that would spawn such an argument. And since both sides of the argument seem valid to a point, I'll have to sift through it an see what I can get.

Let's point out, first of all, that RAW are sometimes poorly designed and executed, and the rules that everyone keeps pointing to does nothing but add fuel to an otherwise low kept fire. If we want to go by RAW, however, we have to make some judgement calls at certain points. The rules both of you keep pointing out breaks, in my mind, what is trying to be told and understood. And while I appreciate the help, I have been playing this game long enough to understand a good portion of the books. It's little things like counterspelling that gets me confused, because it's not used often enough for me to care. I could tell you how melee combat works, or how someone probes a target, or how burst fire and full auto adds to damage. But counterspelling...not so much.

Neraph points out that I have to use an action at some point to actually begin counterspelling my allies. I grant him that I should have to declare it at some point. What I'm not getting, from his arguments, is why I have to keep declaring it and why it keeps dropping at the end of my phase. If I wasn't at the top of an initiative, I would be screwing everyone that goes before me, regardless of if I had LOS on them for the entire hour and a half before the combat starts. I hope you can agree, Neraph, that that doesn't make a bit of sense. Why would I ever need to declare counterspelling on my turn when I'm already counterspelling? Did it magically (no pun intended) drop because I started to fight a battle? And what if there is no battle? Maybe I'm being attacked by someone from hiding and I don't actually start combat. Or maybe the Johnson at the meet is trying to cast a compulsion on my face and I've been counterspelling the face. My best analogy is this: I'm in a theater in a box seat, overlooking my counterspelling target, who is an actor in a play. I have been counterspelling him since the beginning of the play, which is about one hour. In that time, am I constantly spending free actions every two seconds to keep him counterspelled? Because, by your definition, I am. Which is fine, and I'll grant you that I might have to do that because counterspelling a target takes some bit of mental forethought and concentration. But then, when the mage in hiding, that I can't see and didn't even know was coming, jumps out and begins a combat with the target on the stage. If I'm still in story-book mode, the mage is counterspelled because I declared counterspelling on my target 2 seconds ago. However, if he starts a combat and I roll a worse initiative and he spends an edge to go first, all of that time I spent was useless. Therefore, counterspelling is useless in any situation where combat starts.

And here's where I think things break down with the rules and what everyone's not understanding. If I cast a spell, say Improved Reflexes, and sustain that, I'm at a -2 to sustain the spell. Granted. We all know that. Sustaining a spell is a...simple action? Free action? I don't believe it's an action at all. It's just something you do. You start sustaining the spell once it's cast. Honestly, this sounds the same as counterspelling. Only difference is, the counterspelling doesn't cost -2 to sustain. But it seems to function exactly like sustaining. I can cast an Improved Reflexes out of combat and sustain it. I don't have to re-declare and cast it again every initiative pass. It's always on. And to me, that makes the most sense, given RAW and how the rules are written.

Now...can we all just, like, be friends? Or at least be neutral? Can we be neutral?
Neraph
It doesn't drop at the end of the IP, it drops when your action comes back around and you do not take an action to use the skill, as it states. You don't get to shoot people every turn without spending actions to do so, you don't get to make Run Tests every turn without declaring it and taking an action to do so, so why should you Counterspell without declaring it and taking the action every Action Phase, especially when it says you have to? It's like spending a Free Action to Observe In Detail - you can do that out of combat also, but you're using your Free Action every Action Phase to do so (whether or not it is currently being tracked). It simply becomes important to track your actions in combat.

I attempted to articulate this above; that your actions and your decisions do continue through Initiative Passes, but when you act again you change those actions and decisions. Apparently I didn't do a good job of it.

Spell Sustaining is a poor analogy in my opinion, as are the vehicle sensors, because those are not skills and do not follow skill use rules. Spell Sustaining follows the rules for spells in the magic section, vehicle sensors follow the rules for equipment in the Gear section, and Counterspelling follows the rules for skills in the Skills section. It's comparing apples, rocks, and beetles.

So it goes like this:
You declare Counterspelling and take a free action to do so. All's good. Your Counterspelling dice are not "used up" throughout the Initiative Pass, and you can Counterspell against spells you don't even notice, just as the book says.

However, the next time your Action Phase comes around and you do not declare Counterspelling and spend a Free Action for it, you are no longer Counterspelling. Those later passages that Falconer keeps pointing at do not override or supersede the beginning few sentences in the Spell Defense section of the rules. This is exactly why you don't get to shoot people with a gun without spending an action and declaring it or why you don't get to keep hacking without declaring it; as soon as your Action Phase comes back around you have to use those skills - they don't use themselves.
forgarn
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 25 2012, 11:04 AM) *
It doesn't drop at the end of the IP, it drops when your action comes back around and you do not take an action to use the skill, as it states. You don't get to shoot people every turn without spending actions to do so, you don't get to make Run Tests every turn without declaring it and taking an action to do so, so why should you Counterspell without declaring it and taking the action every Action Phase, especially when it says you have to? It's like spending a Free Action to Observe In Detail - you can do that out of combat also, but you're using your Free Action every Action Phase to do so (whether or not it is currently being tracked). It simply becomes important to track your actions in combat.

I attempted to articulate this above; that your actions and your decisions do continue through Initiative Passes, but when you act again you change those actions and decisions. Apparently I didn't do a good job of it.


Spell Sustaining is a poor analogy in my opinion, as are the vehicle sensors, because those are not skills and do not follow skill use rules. Spell Sustaining follows the rules for spells in the magic section, vehicle sensors follow the rules for equipment in the Gear section, and Counterspelling follows the rules for skills in the Skills section. It's comparing apples, rocks, and beetles.

So it goes like this:
You declare Counterspelling and take a free action to do so. All's good. Your Counterspelling dice are not "used up" throughout the Initiative Pass, and you can Counterspell against spells you don't even notice, just as the book says.

However, the next time your Action Phase comes around and you do not declare Counterspelling and spend a Free Action for it, you are no longer Counterspelling. Those later passages that Falconer keeps pointing at do not override or supersede the beginning few sentences in the Spell Defense section of the rules. This is exactly why you don't get to shoot people with a gun without spending an action and declaring it or why you don't get to keep hacking without declaring it; as soon as your Action Phase comes back around you have to use those skills - they don't use themselves.



Scenario:

I declare I am counterspelling my entire team (they are all within LoS to me). I then cast hot potato. The next round I decide that I do not need to keep hot potato running. So, as it is a sustained spell (SM, pg171), I spend my free action to drop the sustained spell. Are you trying to say that because I dropped my sustained spell that I can no longer protect my team with counterspelling? Is that really what you are saying????????

Not the way it has worked in any of the SR4 games that I have ever played in or GM'd. I have always read it that once you declare the list, you only have to spend the free action to change the list (even people that have left your LoS are still covered in the list until you remove them, they just do not get the benefit).

QUOTE
...This is exactly why you don't get to shoot people with a gun without spending an action and declaring it or why you don't get to keep hacking without declaring it; as soon as your Action Phase comes back around you have to use those skills - they don't use themselves.


Actually once you have obtained illegal entry into a system, you are considered to be hacking even if you just sit there and observe (doing nothing and not spending any actions) until you log out of the system.


QUOTE
Spell Sustaining is a poor analogy in my opinion, as are the vehicle sensors, because those are not skills and do not follow skill use rules. Spell Sustaining follows the rules for spells in the magic section, vehicle sensors follow the rules for equipment in the Gear section, and Counterspelling follows the rules for skills in the Skills section. It's comparing apples, rocks, and beetles.


Just like using shooting a gun is a poor example because they follow the rules for shooting guns (ranged combat). You only have so many bullets before you have to change the clip.

But getting back to your statement of following the rules in the Skills section, pg 185 describes the Counterspelling and how it works and it clearly states that "it continues to protect the designated characters against other spells until the magician decides to end it." Not until the magician's next IP, but until the magician decides to end it. How does the magician decide to end it... buy spending a free action to remove them from the list of protected characters.

@CrystalBlue
QUOTE
If I cast a spell, say Improved Reflexes, and sustain that, I'm at a -2 to sustain the spell. Granted. We all know that. Sustaining a spell is a...simple action? Free action? I don't believe it's an action at all. It's just something you do. You start sustaining the spell once it's cast. Honestly, this sounds the same as counterspelling. Only difference is, the counterspelling doesn't cost -2 to sustain. But it seems to function exactly like sustaining. I can cast an Improved Reflexes out of combat and sustain it. I don't have to re-declare and cast it again every initiative pass. It's always on. And to me, that makes the most sense, given RAW and how the rules are written.


Exactly!!! I use a complex action to cast the spell (I use no action in following IP's to sustain it). I use a free action to drop the sustained spell. Likewise, I use a free action to declare my counterspelling (and no action the following IP's to sustain it). I use a free action to change the list of protected characters (to add/drop or to remove all from the list).
CrystalBlue
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 25 2012, 10:04 AM) *
So it goes like this:
You declare Counterspelling and take a free action to do so. All's good. Your Counterspelling dice are not "used up" throughout the Initiative Pass, and you can Counterspell against spells you don't even notice, just as the book says.

However, the next time your Action Phase comes around and you do not declare Counterspelling and spend a Free Action for it, you are no longer Counterspelling. Those later passages that Falconer keeps pointing at do not override or supersede the beginning few sentences in the Spell Defense section of the rules. This is exactly why you don't get to shoot people with a gun without spending an action and declaring it or why you don't get to keep hacking without declaring it; as soon as your Action Phase comes back around you have to use those skills - they don't use themselves.


I think I get what you're saying. Since you're counterspelling, you should be using a free action to 'concentrate' on counterspelling your group while you do other things. Hence, why it should take up a free action like you say it is. But honestly, I'm not 'using' this skill like you are telling me I am in the other cases of shooting guns or hacking. If that was the case, I would be calling out targets, throwing dice, checking results, ect. Every other skill that you're talking about requires something to be happening. I do consider sustaining a valid example. The same as I would consider a rigger and his subscription list valid. Same basic concept. I subscribe drones to my subscription list, segregate them into groups, and pull other ones off. These take actions to change, but at no time do I have to take a free action to 'verify' the subscription list, like you are saying I would have to with counterspelling. That's why it doesn't make sense in my mind. Creating that list, yes. Dropping from the list, yes. But just keeping it going? I would hope that is just a thing that happens and not something I need to be wasting turns on. Again, I agree with you. Maybe this is the case and I need to continue my counterspelling by concentrating on is every round (much like D&D 4th edition does with their sustained spells), but it doesn't seem to be in line with how things are working...it seems like an anomaly in the skills.
Falconer
Forgorn:
Yes, many got hooked up on that "must stay within LOS of the caster' bit...

You had people writing software to act as a safe targetting system for direct area spells... press button I black out all my allies.. I cast stunball all my allies are safe because I can't see them behind the LCD shutters... (think like flare comp, or the shutter glasses they make for 3dTV's now).

Since the above technically is within RAW (though not really RAI many feel)... the reaction was to throw a grey area of the RAW right back at them... IF any of the protected targets left your LOS (such as by activating your blinders)... then you'd need to redeclare your counterspelling (stopping them from other useful things such as... dropping a sustained spell, using centering for drain, or even communicating with your allies (talking is a free action)).


Crystalblue.
The problem is that the RAW and the RAI doesn't do what Neraph says... he keeps on calling up rules analogues to other things and to some nebulous 'general' rule which is never spelled out anywhere in the rulebook. He asserts repeatedly that the first paragraph says something that it doesn't... (it only says that you need to declare the counterspelling in advance; the second sentence is a big IF you haven't already done so you need to use a delayed action/available free action or you can't). That's the reason I'm taking the time to argue this out because he's pointlessly confusing new players with something no one else does.


The rules for firing 20rds as full auto suppressing fire... last until your next action phase. Why?! Because the rules specific to suppressing fire specifically say it lasts until your next action phase.

The rules for running and moving last until your next action phase... why because the rules explicitly say you keep your last movement mode until your next action phase.

Neraph asserts that the rules for counterspelling also only last til your next action phase... yet nowhere in the entire p185 section does it say it only lasts til your next action phase (which tells you how to use the skill, all the other counterspelling references point to it by page#!).

The rules for counterspelling last until you use another free action or the target leaves your sight... why because the rules on p185 EXPLICITLY say so. The first paragraph merely reiterates that you must have already declared OR BE IN POSITION to declare counterspelling to use it.


Hell, most people have a hard enough time keeping the initiative mechanics straight... or they fall into the trap that free actions are 'free' and unlimited like they are in DnD. You see a lot of people complain about SR3/4 initiative because it isn't front loaded enough like it was way back when. But then they don't enforce the rules that you can only react to people lower in initiative than yourself with two minor exceptions (falling prone and going on full defense), which is the single biggest advantage to winning initiative.
Neraph
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Jun 25 2012, 01:44 PM) *
...it seems like an anomaly in the skills.

I agree.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 25 2012, 09:57 PM) *
The problem is that the RAW and the RAI doesn't do what Neraph says... he keeps on calling up rules analogues to other things and to some nebulous 'general' rule which is never spelled out anywhere in the rulebook. He asserts repeatedly that the first paragraph says something that it doesn't... (it only says that you need to declare the counterspelling in advance; the second sentence is a big IF you haven't already done so you need to use a delayed action/available free action or you can't). That's the reason I'm taking the time to argue this out because he's pointlessly confusing new players with something no one else does.

You're right, it doesn't take a Free Action to declare Spell Defense Counterspelling, does it? Oh, it does in the second sentence of that section of the rules, doesn't it? Now, after you declare it, it continues to work, no matter how many spells are Counterspelled (even if you may not know they're there), until you decide to stop it, right? Well, how does one stop using Counterspelling? What kind of action is it? What about when it's your turn to act and you decide not to, as the second sentence states, spend a Free Action to use Spell Defense Counterspelling? You don't get to Counterspell your allies, right? How is the 2nd IP different from the 1st, or the 8th? Simply because of one sentence that does not supercede the earlier one that actually tells you how to activate the skill?

If you do not spend a Free Action to declare Spell Defense Counterspelling then your allies do not get Counterspelling. This is the way the book declares it, irregardless of whether or not you've declared it in the past.
Falconer
Neraph... what you don't get is counterspelling is not activated... IT IS DECLARED. All your other analogues you keep dragging out all explicitly say when they stop and start. This isn't even grey... it's simply you perverting the rules and confusing a newbie. And I'm normally one of the first to call out grey areas in the rules.


When is it declared... in advance. (first sentence... free action list in the magic section as well).

Where does it say this first sentence... second sentence is only applicable if you haven't already done the first and you have a free action available or delayed.

When do I decide not to... when I decide to use a free action and not declare you worthy of counterspelling protection.


Nowhere in the entire section is anything stating that it's activated... it's declared in advance THEN USED AUTOMATICALLY. It's not an active skill, it's a PASSIVE use of the skill to counterspell. It's an ACTIVE use of the skill to dispel.
Yerameyahu
forgarn, you can also buy more Free actions with your Simple ones. wink.gif I only answer because the 8 question marks made it seem urgent.
Falconer
Yera:

In his examples... he was casting a spell. Which uses his complex action... so he has no simple actions to downgrade.
Yerameyahu
No, in his example he was *dropping* a sustained spell. You're right that he's screwed if he wants to do all three (under this hypothetical ruling).

Regardless of the RAW, it really depends on whether Counterspelling is *supposed* to be a permanent passive effect, or a limited one which involves the 'action economy'. Either one is fine, per se, so it's just a question of desired game mechanic. smile.gif Falconer expressed that his desire is for magic defense to be easier/stronger, so he'd choose passive for his table. The worst thing that happens in the other one is that the mage has to spend more of his (precious) time protecting the team, that's all.

For the OP, this means: pick one (whoever's the GM), tell the players, and go with it. smile.gif
Falconer
Yera... to a point... the only reason I make a stink about it is because when a newbie asks for advice and what the rules are. You tell them the rules... you don't tell them your house rules like Neraph did. If there's grey in the rules you tell them and explain it. If you feel the need to include house rules like we sometimes do, you tell them the reason for those house rules.


There's absolutely zero support in RAW for forcing the mage to do it every pass. (the rules only say must be declared in advance... and it's good so long as the protectees remain in LOS and you change the declaration with another action). So telling a new player to do it another way is telling them a house rule without informing them that it is a house rule (and one I've never even heard of in years of gaming shadowrun4).


I can even see some good reasons to do it that way, though mostly I see bad consequences and a return to the bad old days of SR3 or 2... where the mage only ever counterspelled himself and never bothered protecting teammates most of the time. (you had to use your spell pool dice up to protect yourself and others... so most people simply resorted to an all out offense strategy... kill them before you need to stop them from killing you). In any case, my reason for arging against isn't my preference, it's because there's no support in RAW for it. (when arguing RAW you really need to be able both sides of an argument and present either case convincingly. In this case, I pressed neraph for his source cites and couldn't find anything to argue the for side with. I couldn't find anything stating the effect ended every pass only text to the contrary).
toturi
Just so you know that I am watching the thread closely for Rules Heresies. nyahnyah.gif

For what it is worth, I think strictly speaking that by RAW, Falconer is correct. Due to ambigiuities in the rules, however, Neraph is in the grey areas of the RAW, so he is not wrong either. And I must say Neraph's recent efforts in rules lawyering is one of the more innovative and refreshing I have seen in a while.
Krishach
This does seem to be getting a little heated. As has been said, RAW rules are sometimes vague at best, but I do feel this could benefit from some exact quotes, especially since they have already been mentioned as rules. Games like this turn on wording, in absence of GM ruling.

This is from 20th ann 4th ed, pg 185, far right column, under SPELL DEFENSE. As Neraph did quote.
QUOTE
the magician must spend a Free Action and declare who she is protecting. If Counterspelling was not declared in advance, it may not be used to defend others, unless the magician has delayed her action (see Delayed Actions, p. 145).

from Free Actions:
QUOTE
A character may take a Free Action during his own Action Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character may not take a
Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the Initiative Pass. (pg 146)

Magician Actions, pg 179
QUOTE
Declare Counterspelling Protection: A magician who wishes to protect others with Counterspelling (p. 185) must spend a Free Action and declare it in advance (a magician never needs to declare that he is using Counterspelling on himself ).

Now, we (our gaming group) take this to mean the following: you MUST declare counterspelling to protect another BEFORE the spell in question is declared. That is, no "whoopsies I forgot" in response to someone elses spell declaration. You must have done so either PRIOR to surprise/initiative tests being taken by the GM, or during or after your first Initiative Pass, but before trying to block an incoming spell FOR ANOTHER. Being Surprised disallows counterspelling, as you are not aware at all. Even against yourself (same page).

Also, it does not, at any point, give a duration for counterspelling to last, but it does say the following:
QUOTE
—it continues to protect the designated characters against other spells until the magician decides to end it.

We (our gaming group) takes this to mean the following: Counterspelling is maintained until the magician declares it ended, protected leaves line-of-sight, or the magician is no longer able to maintain it (unconscious, as an example). We do not require continuous use of each passes free action. This is as Psikerlord mentioned he has been doing, and a point Falconer made. It, however, is implied in the above quote, and not explicit.

lastly, to complicate things a little further:
QUOTE
A magician who is actively Counterspelling can even defend against spells she is unaware of—specifically, Detection spells and Illusion spells

We take this to mean: a magician who has DECLARED counterspelling can counter Detection and Illusion spells they are not yet aware of. No others.

I did not read the full extent of the arguments being posted, and as I said, much of this has been written already. Apologies if I didn't cite all occurrences. Different groups interpret unclear wordings differently: I can only show the wordings and tell you my groups ruling, some of which involved extensive in-house debates. On just wordings. I'd like some errata for christmas, please!
Neraph
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 26 2012, 09:37 PM) *
Just so you know that I am watching the thread closely for Rules Heresies. nyahnyah.gif

For what it is worth, I think strictly speaking that by RAW, Falconer is correct. Due to ambigiuities in the rules, however, Neraph is in the grey areas of the RAW, so he is not wrong either. And I must say Neraph's recent efforts in rules lawyering is one of the more innovative and refreshing I have seen in a while.

High praise - you can't see me now but I'm glowing. Thank you.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 26 2012, 08:44 PM) *
You tell them the rules... you don't tell them your house rules like Neraph did. If there's grey in the rules you tell them and explain it. If you feel the need to include house rules like we sometimes do, you tell them the reason for those house rules.

A differing interpretation where the rules are vague enough to be interpreted does not constitute a House-Rule. This one can honestly be ruled either way, and while I think mine is the most correct abiding by the RAW, your interpretation makes the game, shall we say, easier (less stressful, less micromanagement of actions...).
forgarn
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 28 2012, 11:04 AM) *
A differing interpretation where the rules are vague enough to be interpreted does not constitute a House-Rule. This one can honestly be ruled either way, and while I think mine is the most correct abiding by the RAW, your interpretation makes the game, shall we say, easier (less stressful, less micromanagement of actions...).


I wouldn't say it makes it easier, it just makes more sense. As a mage why should I have to choose between protecting my group and dropping a sustained spell, when I did not have to make that choice while sustaining the spell (which IMO takes more concentration, unless you are using a focus or ally spirit).
Yerameyahu
Because they're different things? Magic is arbitrary, and as soon as you say 'IMO', you're off in space. smile.gif You can't rely on 'makes more sense to me'.
Mal-2
QUOTE (forgarn @ Jun 28 2012, 11:50 AM) *
I wouldn't say it makes it easier, it just makes more sense. As a mage why should I have to choose between protecting my group and dropping a sustained spell, when I did not have to make that choice while sustaining the spell (which IMO takes more concentration, unless you are using a focus or ally spirit).


You can do both of those things. Every initiative pass, you get three actions: One Free Action, and two Simple Actions (or one Free and one Complex).

IP 1: Carl the Combat Mage declares counterspelling (Free). Carl casts Invisibility and sustains it (Complex).
IP 2: Carl the Combat Mage declares counterspelling (Free). Carl drops Invisibility (Free, swapping out a Simple for an extra Free action). Carl still has a Simple action remaining.

In my SR Universe, mages don't need to give up all of their Free actions to declare counterspelling, but even if they did they would be free to counterspell and drop a sustained spell on the same initiative pass.
forgarn
QUOTE (Mal-2 @ Jun 28 2012, 03:19 PM) *
You can do both of those things. Every initiative pass, you get three actions: One Free Action, and two Simple Actions (or one Free and one Complex).

IP 1: Carl the Combat Mage declares counterspelling (Free). Carl casts Invisibility and sustains it (Complex).
IP 2: Carl the Combat Mage declares counterspelling (Free). Carl drops Invisibility (Free, swapping out a Simple for an extra Free action). Carl still has a Simple action remaining.

In my SR Universe, mages don't need to give up all of their Free actions to declare counterspelling, but even if they did they would be free to counterspell and drop a sustained spell on the same initiative pass.


...unless of course you have to cast another spell (complex action). Then you would have to choose (if you have to declare everytime)
Irion
Neraph is just using one axiom (which he did declare).
You have to declare what you are doing, or you are not doing it.

If you agree with that, his interpretation of the rules is correct.
If you don't, his interpretation is not correct. (Who would have thought that)

So yes, only using the words of the book he would be incorrect. But only using the words of the book, is nearly impossible. (Leads to a lot of silly ideas)

(One fine example is resisting drain, and than resisting the damage the drain causes...)
Krishach
excellent point. Both cases require the assumptions of some basic principles. It does not reference whether it is continuous, nor does it reference a time period in which it lasts if it is not. It says "do it before," and leaves off the rest.
Falconer
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 28 2012, 03:41 PM) *
Neraph is just using one axiom (which he did declare).
You have to declare what you are doing, or you are not doing it.

If you agree with that, his interpretation of the rules is correct.
If you don't, his interpretation is not correct. (Who would have thought that)

So yes, only using the words of the book he would be incorrect. But only using the words of the book, is nearly impossible. (Leads to a lot of silly ideas)

(One fine example is resisting drain, and than resisting the damage the drain causes...)


Irion... this is patently false... Neraph is declaring an AXIOM WHICH DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BOOK!!!! (every action needs be declared in the action phase... and that certain actions cannot have an ongoing effect when no such requirement is printed in the book.

Hence he is creating a house rule, then forcing other RAW to conform to his views. It's not grey in the least.

Lets take a parallel example...
p184 Ongoing Effects (sustaining)
"Many spells can be sustained *FOR AS LONG AS THE MAGICIAN IS WILLING* to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell's duration".
p185 Counterspelling 4th paragraph... duration
"Note that counterspelling is not "used up".... it continues to protect the designated characters *UNTIL THE MAGE DECIDES TO END IT*".

Using Neraphs house rule... the mage would need DECLARE every action that he is sustaining the spell. And this would somehow require an action on his part. When the RAW is quite contrary.. earlier in the magic section, it's a 'free action' to DROP SUSTAINING on a spell. There's a clear example of magic using an action to start an effect, and another action later to end it. The RAW does not state it takes an action to sustain the spell yet Neraph invents the same requirement whole cloth out of thin air for counterspelling. Despite the near identical wording of the two.

Neraph insists on pushing forward the notion that it's impossible to do something which has an ongoing effect WITHOUT EXPENDING FURTHER ACTIONS to keep it going. Despite the RAW stating no such requirement. That's why I say this is not grey... it's not necessarily a bad house rule (it has it's good points and bad points). But it's not a grey area of the rules as written as best I can tell. His is a novel reading and the first I've ever heard anyone put it forward.

I'm not hotblooded on this... I simply enjoy arguing rules lawyering on the forums and pretty much only on the forums (look back in the archive for some of my own novel readings going back... such as ItNW doesn't stack with normal armor because it doesn't say it does. The FAQ later came out and clarified this)."


You give a false example... resisting drain. How is resisting drain as put forward in the main rulebook impossible to do as published?! It's patently easy to apply (and the drain codes themselves run back to earlier editions). This again falls into your attempts in the other thread to completely break the drain thread and make it conform to *YOUR* wishes... not to the *WORKING* mechanic in game. (p184 resist drain), amended by centering metamagic if applicable. There's even bits in there about drain not being healable by magical means.

Irion
QUOTE
Lets take a parallel example...
p184 Ongoing Effects (sustaining)
"Many spells can be sustained *FOR AS LONG AS THE MAGICIAN IS WILLING* to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell's duration".
p185 Counterspelling 4th paragraph... duration
"Note that counterspelling is not "used up".... it continues to protect the designated characters *UNTIL THE MAGE DECIDES TO END IT*".

It makes the number of spells you may counter unlimited. The question is how does the mage decide to end it?
There is nothing in the rules.
Neraph is only saying, if you do not do it anymore, you end it.

QUOTE
the mage would need DECLARE every action that he is sustaining the spell. And this would somehow require an action on his part.

Sustaining a spell is a none action.

QUOTE
Despite the near identical wording of the two.

Near identical is not identical...

QUOTE
But it's not a grey area of the rules as written as best I can tell. His is a novel reading and the first I've ever heard anyone put it forward.

Which does not make it wrong. The point is, there is nothing in the rules on how long counterspelling works. As a sidenote: It stops when you loose line of sight. Since you blink around every 3 to 6 sec one combat turn would fit.
The point is: It would make everything very random. No you can't counterspell, you have lost LOS a while a ago. No it does not help, that you regained it.
CrystalBlue
Ok...so what I'm seeing from all of the discussion still going on is that counterspelling is either an effective defensive magic skill that you can take, so long as it's always up and active to help the group...or one of the most useless sinks of karma and action economy I've ever seen. It's bad enough spells (that no longer do great damage) and spirits (which seem to be made of rice paper) take complex actions just to get out there, but when you're telling me that mages need to take yet another action out of their budget and put it to adding a mere two or three dice to their team for that manaball that WILL put down the troll because he has no Will and crap for stun boxes? Yeah, it's another instance where Magic is no longer as cool or viable as it used to be.
Irion
@CrystalBlue
Are you playing a different game? Spirits made of rice paper? Spells do not great damage?
Yerameyahu
It depends on the force. smile.gif I do notice, however, that he then describes 'that manaball' as pretty powerful! It certainly sounds like he's not playing magicrun, with all those complaints.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
The fact is that Shadowrun becomes even More Magicrun if Counterspelling is used like Neraph and Irion argue for. I have to agree with Falconer, the rules are very explicit. Counterspelling is declared and then lasts until it is either dropped or redeclared. If the target [of counterspelling] is no longer in LOS (And no, Irion, blinking does not remove LOS, that is just ignorant), then the target is no longer protected. It is pretty simple, actually.
Yerameyahu
… Why is it 'just ignorant'? That's not an argument. More like, the rules just can't be used logically. smile.gif The rules should (but do not!) explicitly say that counterspelling lasts indefinitely, and that it relies on having a clear astral LOS (but not actual sight; this means you can counterspell people behind you, but there is no logical way around that). Luckily, you know how much I care about the rules when they contradict fun, balance, or sense.
forgarn
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 29 2012, 01:44 AM) *
It makes the number of spells you may counter unlimited. The question is how does the mage decide to end it?


Actually he can't. It is always active for himself unless he is surprised.
QUOTE (SR4a, pg.185)
Note that a magician can always use Counterspelling to defend herself, unless surprised.


As for protection of other characters, it requires a free action to change the list. If there is currently no one on the list, it takes a free action to add people. If there are people currently on it, it takes a free action to add new or remove some or all (making the list empty).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 29 2012, 07:40 AM) *
… Why is it 'just ignorant'? That's not an argument. More like, the rules just can't be used logically. smile.gif The rules should (but do not!) explicitly say that counterspelling lasts indefinitely, and that it relies on having a clear astral LOS (but not actual sight; this means you can counterspell people behind you, but there is no logical way around that). Luckily, you know how much I care about the rules when they contradict fun, balance, or sense.


I think Falconer has done a bang-up job of pointing out that it is explicit, Yerameyahu. ANd it is not Indefinite. It last until either LOS has been broken, a new declaration is made, or it is dropped with a free action. And yes, LOS does not mean that I actually MUST see you (which is why the Blinking argument that Irion threw out there is so ignorant), so yes, a character can counterspell his teammates behind him, as long as he has previously declared it, and he has maintained a clear LOS to them with no breaks. Why would you look for logical ways around that? AS you say, there IS NO logical way around that.

Added to that is that is that fact that Neraph and Irion's position is no fun, and well, you would seem to be on Falconer's side of the argument. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 28 2012, 08:57 PM) *
Irion... this is patently false... Neraph is declaring an AXIOM WHICH DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BOOK!!!! (every action needs be declared in the action phase... and that certain actions cannot have an ongoing effect when no such requirement is printed in the book.

Hence he is creating a house rule, then forcing other RAW to conform to his views. It's not grey in the least.

Lets take a parallel example...
p184 Ongoing Effects (sustaining)
"Many spells can be sustained *FOR AS LONG AS THE MAGICIAN IS WILLING* to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell's duration".
p185 Counterspelling 4th paragraph... duration
"Note that counterspelling is not "used up".... it continues to protect the designated characters *UNTIL THE MAGE DECIDES TO END IT*".

Using Neraphs house rule... the mage would need DECLARE every action that he is sustaining the spell. And this would somehow require an action on his part. When the RAW is quite contrary.. earlier in the magic section, it's a 'free action' to DROP SUSTAINING on a spell. There's a clear example of magic using an action to start an effect, and another action later to end it. The RAW does not state it takes an action to sustain the spell yet Neraph invents the same requirement whole cloth out of thin air for counterspelling. Despite the near identical wording of the two.

Neraph insists on pushing forward the notion that it's impossible to do something which has an ongoing effect WITHOUT EXPENDING FURTHER ACTIONS to keep it going. Despite the RAW stating no such requirement. That's why I say this is not grey... it's not necessarily a bad house rule (it has it's good points and bad points). But it's not a grey area of the rules as written as best I can tell. His is a novel reading and the first I've ever heard anyone put it forward.

I'm not hotblooded on this... I simply enjoy arguing rules lawyering on the forums and pretty much only on the forums (look back in the archive for some of my own novel readings going back... such as ItNW doesn't stack with normal armor because it doesn't say it does. The FAQ later came out and clarified this)."


You give a false example... resisting drain. How is resisting drain as put forward in the main rulebook impossible to do as published?! It's patently easy to apply (and the drain codes themselves run back to earlier editions). This again falls into your attempts in the other thread to completely break the drain thread and make it conform to *YOUR* wishes... not to the *WORKING* mechanic in game. (p184 resist drain), amended by centering metamagic if applicable. There's even bits in there about drain not being healable by magical means.

No. I posit that when it comes to skill use you must follow the rules of that skill, such as declaring that you are using a skill and taking the action required to use said skill. My examples have been correct, and I'm really getting tired of you saying that all I'm declaring is a House-Rule when it is quite obviously a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules. For example, nowhere in those large swaths of text that you point at does any rule negate the first two sentences of the Spell Defense section. It's great that Spell Defense lasts until you choose not to use it anymore (how do you choose not, by the way? What action is it? When can you take that action?) and how Spell Defense is not used up, but that does not negate the fact that you must declare it in your Action Phase and you must spend a Free Action to use Spell Defense.

How spells work and how equipment works are in no way relevant to skill use. For example, the way that the Shapechange spell works does not help me at all when I decide to try and use the Hardware skill, nor does knowing how Thermographic Vision works help me use the Pilot skill. Skills, equipment, and spells are all handled differently by the rules, which is why the book places them in different sections. Trying to use spell and equipment functionality in a debate on skill use is a Red Herring Logical Fallacy.

A more legitimate parallel for Spell Defense would be Suppresive Fire, which is a skill use. Do you still continue to spray bullets until you decide to stop? No - like all continuous skills you have to declare that you are still using that skill (and spend the requisite actions) when your next Action Phase comes back around.
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