Full Version: Gun-Bunny Cheese Help
I have a human gun-nut ('ware route, rather than magic), and I was wondering what I can do to increase his dice pool for shooting things. He's already at his Augmented Max for Agility, and will soon have 6 in his shooting skill. Most of his guns have a Smartlink, and enough recoil compensation to counter their max recoil penalties. What else am I missing?
Get a tacnet.
Bigger firearms.
Shoot the target point blank: +2
Make sure the target is massive: +2
Synch: +1 after first round of combat
Take Aim for 3 rounds: +3
Aptitude: +1
TacNet Rating 3 (I think 3 is the cap): +3
Exceptional Attribute (Agility): +1
Genetic Modification (Agility): +1
That's like.... 14 dice he's missing!
Make sure the target is massive: +2
Synch: +1 after first round of combat
Take Aim for 3 rounds: +3
Aptitude: +1
TacNet Rating 3 (I think 3 is the cap): +3
Exceptional Attribute (Agility): +1
Genetic Modification (Agility): +1
That's like.... 14 dice he's missing!
SURGE for Metagenetic Improvement (Agility)
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 26 2012, 10:02 AM) 
Shoot the target point blank: +2
Make sure the target is massive: +2
Synch: +1 after first round of combat
Take Aim for 3 rounds: +3
Aptitude: +1
TacNet Rating 3 (I think 3 is the cap): +3
Exceptional Attribute (Agility): +1
Genetic Modification (Agility): +1
That's like.... 14 dice he's missing!
Make sure the target is massive: +2
Synch: +1 after first round of combat
Take Aim for 3 rounds: +3
Aptitude: +1
TacNet Rating 3 (I think 3 is the cap): +3
Exceptional Attribute (Agility): +1
Genetic Modification (Agility): +1
That's like.... 14 dice he's missing!
Tacnet can get to 4, assuming you have 8 Channels (Per Person) to support it, and 6 People/entities in the team.
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Jul 26 2012, 11:36 AM)
I have a human gun-nut ('ware route, rather than magic), and I was wondering what I can do to increase his dice pool for shooting things. He's already at his Augmented Max for Agility, and will soon have 6 in his shooting skill. Most of his guns have a Smartlink, and enough recoil compensation to counter their max recoil penalties. What else am I missing?
Agility: 7 (11 with cyberware/bioware)
Skill: 7 (aptitude and maxed out)
Smartlink:+2
Specialization:+2
Krav Maga:Free aim/ready weapon +1
Tacnet:+2 (realistically), max +4
Total dice:25 to 27
With the Krav Maga, Aptitude and TacNet, the one SURGED elf I have would more likely have 26 to 28 rather than the 25 to 27. The SURGE making natural max 8 and augmented max 12 helps that out and Muscle Toner 4 with Suprathyroid maxes it out at that 12)
Don't forget Reflex Recorder for another +1.
Edit: Some might argue that it increases the skill rating and so can't raise it above the unaugmented max (6 or 7). Even if that's the case, it's still probably cheaper than raising the skill directly.
Edit: Some might argue that it increases the skill rating and so can't raise it above the unaugmented max (6 or 7). Even if that's the case, it's still probably cheaper than raising the skill directly.
Here's the SURGEd Elf I mentioned.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (thorya @ Jul 26 2012, 11:35 AM)
Don't forget Reflex Recorder for another +1.
Edit: Some might argue that it increases the skill rating and so can't raise it above the unaugmented max (6 or 7). Even if that's the case, it's still probably cheaper than raising the skill directly.
Edit: Some might argue that it increases the skill rating and so can't raise it above the unaugmented max (6 or 7). Even if that's the case, it's still probably cheaper than raising the skill directly.
That is the only argument. Reflex Recorder raises the Skill, it is not a DP Modifier.
QUOTE (thorya @ Jul 26 2012, 12:35 PM)
Don't forget Reflex Recorder for another +1.
Edit: Some might argue that it increases the skill rating and so can't raise it above the unaugmented max (6 or 7). Even if that's the case, it's still probably cheaper than raising the skill directly.
Edit: Some might argue that it increases the skill rating and so can't raise it above the unaugmented max (6 or 7). Even if that's the case, it's still probably cheaper than raising the skill directly.
Skills have the same rules of augmented max as attributes, so if you can get enough of those increases, you can have 6(9) or 7(10). Generally takes Adept to hit the max mark though.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 26 2012, 12:53 PM)
That is the only argument. Reflex Recorder raises the Skill, it is not a DP Modifier.
Except the improved ability adept power does the same thing and uses the same wording and can raise it above the unaugmented maximum. It seems pretty clear to me that as an augmentation, it should be able to exceed the unaugmented maximum, but if you don't want to read it that way, you don't have to.
QUOTE (thorya @ Jul 26 2012, 01:34 PM)
Except the improved ability adept power does the same thing and uses the same wording and can raise it above the unaugmented maximum. It seems pretty clear to me that as an augmentation, it should be able to exceed the unaugmented maximum, but if you don't want to read it that way, you don't have to.
No it can't. Re-read it again.
QUOTE (thorya @ Jul 26 2012, 03:34 PM)
Except the improved ability adept power does the same thing and uses the same wording and can raise it above the unaugmented maximum. It seems pretty clear to me that as an augmentation, it should be able to exceed the unaugmented maximum, but if you don't want to read it that way, you don't have to.
Uhhh what?
Improved Ability states "This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill by 1 per level. A skill's maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5."
Reflex Record states "The reflex recorder add 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group (Combat and Physical Skills only)."
StealthSigma is right, they don't stack beyond the augmented skill max. Your's would be, of course, 10, with a reflex recorder.
You've got nearly every dice you can squeeze out of a gunshooting score. Take Aim will net you up to another 7 (10 if you augment that skill, it stacks up to skill I believe).
With your dicepool, if it were me personally, I wouldn't think another dice or two would make a large enough difference unless it was an easy piece of gear I missed. I don't think you missed any. I'd be trying to shoot as many times as possible. I assume you also have 4 passes? Depending on the power level of the game, this is likely also plenty of dice to dual wield.
Also, I'm assuming you took all vision mods to reduce penalties.
You've got nearly every dice you can squeeze out of a gunshooting score. Take Aim will net you up to another 7 (10 if you augment that skill, it stacks up to skill I believe).
With your dicepool, if it were me personally, I wouldn't think another dice or two would make a large enough difference unless it was an easy piece of gear I missed. I don't think you missed any. I'd be trying to shoot as many times as possible. I assume you also have 4 passes? Depending on the power level of the game, this is likely also plenty of dice to dual wield.
Also, I'm assuming you took all vision mods to reduce penalties.
Big Caveat...
Tacnets only *MIGHT* add to combat rolls. Read the software, it gives a monstrous list of things the GM *MIGHT* consider adding them to.
I know I for one do not allow them to. (I limit them to perception, surprise, and initiative, which are pretty big bonuses... also I'll allow them to offset vision penalties and make information guided attacks through walls and the like).
Tacnets only *MIGHT* add to combat rolls. Read the software, it gives a monstrous list of things the GM *MIGHT* consider adding them to.
I know I for one do not allow them to. (I limit them to perception, surprise, and initiative, which are pretty big bonuses... also I'll allow them to offset vision penalties and make information guided attacks through walls and the like).
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 26 2012, 12:53 PM)
That is the only argument. Reflex Recorder raises the Skill, it is not a DP Modifier.
It should be treated as an Augmented increase, though - that is, if you have Skill 6, you can still get a Reflex Recorder, and wind up with Skill 6(7).
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 26 2012, 09:09 AM)
Tacnet can get to 4, assuming you have 8 Channels (Per Person) to support it, and 6 People/entities in the team.
Don't forget to run it on an Optimized(Tacnet) commlink. Its only 500Y for an extra +1!
High caliber, fully automatic, preferably belt fed.
How about the Enhance Aim spell?
QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 27 2012, 02:22 AM)
StealthSigma is right, they don't stack beyond the augmented skill max. Your's would be, of course, 10, with a reflex recorder.
You've got nearly every dice you can squeeze out of a gunshooting score. Take Aim will net you up to another 7 (10 if you augment that skill, it stacks up to skill I believe).
You've got nearly every dice you can squeeze out of a gunshooting score. Take Aim will net you up to another 7 (10 if you augment that skill, it stacks up to skill I believe).
Half the skill. So even with skill at 6 it's only 3 dice.
@Seriously Mike
Not with aptitude, which would make it 7(10). I included the quality, since Aptitude had been mentioned by Warlordtheft, and this is regarding max-dice.
Enhance Aim reduces range penalties, which could be instead done with Vision Magnification. It would remove the necessity of the Take Aim action, though that could be mitigated with something like Krav Maga Free Aim.
Not with aptitude, which would make it 7(10). I included the quality, since Aptitude had been mentioned by Warlordtheft, and this is regarding max-dice.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jul 27 2012, 08:19 AM)
How about the Enhance Aim spell?
Enhance Aim reduces range penalties, which could be instead done with Vision Magnification. It would remove the necessity of the Take Aim action, though that could be mitigated with something like Krav Maga Free Aim.
Thanks for all the ideas, guys. Been a while since I went full cheese with Shadowrun. 
@Krishach; Yes, the character has 4 passes already.
@Krishach; Yes, the character has 4 passes already.
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jul 26 2012, 07:56 PM)
It should be treated as an Augmented increase, though - that is, if you have Skill 6, you can still get a Reflex Recorder, and wind up with Skill 6(7).
It IS an Augmented Increase.
QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 27 2012, 06:54 AM)
Enhance Aim reduces range penalties, which could be instead done with Vision Magnification. It would remove the necessity of the Take Aim action, though that could be mitigated with something like Krav Maga Free Aim.
Incorrect, you still only get one free action per turn. The spell is effectively fire and forget... cast it they do their business. Another good one is improved rangefinder gun modification. Counters the penalty for the first range increment effectively extending short out to medium range. Long and extreme still get the +1 reduction in penalty.
That's only 1 aimed shot per two shots fired. Or a 3/2's firing rate. By the point I'm sniping with a warhawk (extreme range, not all that hard to reach given heavy pistol ranges). Called shot for damage, aim to negate range, fire. I'm down to 1 shot per pass Krav or no Krav.
Krav Maga is NOT all it's made out to be by some people around here. It helps a few rare builds but the vast majority which use it gain little to nothing from it.
It depends on how common it is to Called Shot every bloody shot. 
I'd get sick of that real fast.
I'd get sick of that real fast.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2012, 08:37 AM)
It depends on how common it is to Called Shot every bloody shot. It'd get sick of that real fast.
It'd get sick of that real fast.No different than only buying APDS for your Warhawk. It is a choice that has consequences. *shrug*
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2012, 10:37 AM)
It depends on how common it is to Called Shot every bloody shot. It'd get sick of that real fast.
It'd get sick of that real fast.No it doesn't... it's a free action to called shot. It's a simple action to aim... so if you're doing both and krav reduces aim to a free action... you end up using a simple action to do a free action to aim anyhow.
And some of us don't like spray and pray... some of us like to make every bullet count. (warhawk is only SS anyhow... you might as well. Or have a second pistol in your off hand!).
Um, that's exactly my point, Falconer: if you're *not* Calling the Shot, then you're not using 2 Free actions. Or, maybe you're not Taking Aim every single time. Maybe you're not using a SS weapon.
I didn't say you couldn't. I said it's a little odd to claim that *not* doing all of those things is 'rare'.
I didn't say you couldn't. I said it's a little odd to claim that *not* doing all of those things is 'rare'.
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Jul 26 2012, 10:36 AM)
I have a human gun-nut ('ware route, rather than magic), and I was wondering what I can do to increase his dice pool for shooting things. He's already at his Augmented Max for Agility, and will soon have 6 in his shooting skill. Most of his guns have a Smartlink, and enough recoil compensation to counter their max recoil penalties. What else am I missing?
20 Karma to acquire the positive Quality Aptitude. Do this when you raise your Skill to 6. Note that on Page 270, it says "Sorry, you can't acquire Aptitude at the same time you try to improve above the maximum." So don't try to acquire Aptitude at the same time as you try to improve your Skill to 7, do it when you improve it to 6, so it will be a different time when you improve it to seven.
And don't forget Specialization dice. Pick a gun you really like shooting and Specialize in it for the low price of 2 Karma, and get 2 more dice.
Now that's a bargain!
In which case... what does krav actually do.
It lets you make one aimed shot each action phase. Fire, aim(free), Fire. Or Aim(simple), Aim(free), Fire. +1 or +2 on a single attack if you're not making a second attack. Or without Krav, you can still get the +1 aim, simple to enhance damage instead with called shot, then fire.
I'm simply saying the economy of dropping aim to a free action isn't all it's made out to be. Remember you're limited in aim bonus to half your gun skill anyhow. Even spreading aims out over multiple actions... krav is nice, but hardly as useful as people make it out to be. It's mostly useful when the GM forgets everything else which needs free actions and leaves the players with extra (such as communicating with teammates, running, etc.)
On an optomized gun nut... it's even less relevant... once you have agility, skill(+), smartgun, specialization... normally a mere +1 on one shot a round doesn't add up to much of anything. On a less optomized gun nut... is 5BP for the martial art helping all that much? Or do other BP investments produce better returns.
It lets you make one aimed shot each action phase. Fire, aim(free), Fire. Or Aim(simple), Aim(free), Fire. +1 or +2 on a single attack if you're not making a second attack. Or without Krav, you can still get the +1 aim, simple to enhance damage instead with called shot, then fire.
I'm simply saying the economy of dropping aim to a free action isn't all it's made out to be. Remember you're limited in aim bonus to half your gun skill anyhow. Even spreading aims out over multiple actions... krav is nice, but hardly as useful as people make it out to be. It's mostly useful when the GM forgets everything else which needs free actions and leaves the players with extra (such as communicating with teammates, running, etc.)
On an optomized gun nut... it's even less relevant... once you have agility, skill(+), smartgun, specialization... normally a mere +1 on one shot a round doesn't add up to much of anything. On a less optomized gun nut... is 5BP for the martial art helping all that much? Or do other BP investments produce better returns.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2012, 09:17 AM)
It IS an Augmented Increase.
I thought you were suggesting it was an increase to the base skill. *shrug*
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jul 27 2012, 08:45 AM)
I thought you were suggesting it was an increase to the base skill. *shrug*
It is an Increase to the Skill. Anything not an Actual Skill Level increases the Augmented Max, unless it says otherweise (there are a few Qualitites that increase base skill, after all).
No worries, though. I think we are on the same page.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2012, 11:03 AM)
It is an Increase to the Skill. Anything not an Actual Skill Level increases the Augmented Max, unless it says otherweise (there are a few Qualitites that increase base skill, after all).
No worries, though. I think we are on the same page.
No worries, though. I think we are on the same page.
Yeah, I think we were just misunderstanding each other. Oh well.
Get infected! Some, if not all of the infected get an agility boost!
on that note, Genetic Optimization(augmentation) raises your natural maximum on a single stat at a time - its fairly cheap on the essence, but not the cash.
While raising your agility from around 9 to 10 is super expensive, it does recalculate your augmented maximum, which can help you squeeze another dice out of your muscle toner 4.
While raising your agility from around 9 to 10 is super expensive, it does recalculate your augmented maximum, which can help you squeeze another dice out of your muscle toner 4.
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jul 27 2012, 02:39 PM)
Get infected! Some, if not all of the infected get an agility boost!
True. Go pat a Vampire on the back. Instant Infection and power boost, assuming you've got a real amount of Essence left that is (normally meaning not the Street Sam).
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