I have a relatively new character. He doesn't have astral perception, but he does have some sustaining foci (Way of the Magician). I'd rather he not walk blindly around banging into wards. Also, what else could be considered magical activity for the power? Obviously sustained or quicked spells. But the act of conjuring? Conjured spirits? Elementals? Active foci? Dismissing? Assensing? Dispelling? Going to astral projection/perception mode? Astral projection flying by? Dual natured being?

I know some of these should likely be no, and not just because they aren't explicitly obvious from the canon text. Afterall why have Astral Perception when you can detect astral projections passing by much cheaper, and without even LOS, for 1/2 the PP. But if the Magic Sense doesn't allow you to directly spot, hit, etc. then it doesn't exactly replace Perception either.

"detects magical energies and effects"
Well, obviously we could have a flame-war for each and every item on that list, and probably a dozen others, but if you're looking for a general, blanket-statement, I'd say anything with a "force" rating.
So spells/spellcasting, yes.
Active foci, yes.
Assensing, no
Perception, no

It's a little more iffy when it comes to detecting astral forms. I'd say 'no' to detecting astral forms including projected magicians and spirits, but I would say 'yes' to the act of conjuring and to uses of spirit powers. So maybe I don't even agree with my own blanket statement. I could see some physical adept powers setting off the sense, but probably not all of them.

It's such a vague definition that it's just going to come down to everyone's (or more importantly the GM's) opinion, anyway.

Ya, this is flame wars material indeed.

Best bet is to make your own ruling based on the different suggestions you get here.

I'd say that most of that stuff WOULD be termed as magical. Sustained and quickened spells, bonded foci, conjuring.

Astral space is astral space, it's not "magical" by nature it's just closely realted to magic since magic has a physical form in astral space. As such I would rule that dispelling, ascensing, projecting, being dual and things of that nature would not trip any magical detection spells.

I would say that conjuring something is magic but the actual creature and it's powers are not.

But again, that's just how I'd do it.

Sunday.

Afterall i labeled it "Thoughts on..." and not "Canon on..." because the canon seems rather vague. That general rule of "if it has a Force" definately has it's problems (as you point out yourself) because you left spirits off, and they definately have a Force.

Yes, i figured that people -might- unload over this topic. But was hoping that people would realise just how vague the canon was here, and would follow in the "Thoughts on.." vein. Maybe i should have labeled it "Opions on...". *shrug*

Yes, they can. The power specifically states it detects any magical energies or effects, of which a ward most certainly is, and to use the Detection Spell table on page 192 of SR3 to determine the target number. The power then goes on to state the the adept is not astrally active when using this power, so we'll assume he's not astrally active at all (which requires being dual-natured or in possession of Astral Perception).

Thus to detect a ward, which a purely astral entity, he has to beat a TN of 10 - the Force of the ward on a standard Perception Test. Someone can argue that a ward isn't "behind" an astral barrier, but if you do I'd just say you're being a dumbass. A single success indicates that something is around, while 2 or more are required for any details of what it is.

Maybe i don't know what example you are using, but what exactly is the "astral barrier" you are talking about? Are you refering to me talking about something being behind a wall? I wasn't talking about wards there, that was getting into the comparison of Magic Sense vs. Astral Perception.

Quickest fix of all? See what the Detect Magic (detection spell, SR3 Main Sourcebook) spell allows one to detect (I believe it includes astral barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and spirits). Presume that the Magic Sense adept power functions in a similar fashion and has the same general scope.

Thanks Wireknight, that sounds like a pretty good suggestion. I'll read into that.

The "astral barrier" I was talking about was in reference to the Detection Spell modifier table referenced in the previous post.

Magic Sense would most likely not let you sense a Masking Ward unless you were an initiate of a higher grade than the magician who created, or just a lucky lower-grade initiate. If not an initiate, you stand no chance and you'll be bumping into it left and right.

The ward itself. It's its own barrier as far as I'm concerned, which is why I said *I* would call someone a dumbass if they chose to ignore it. But that's just me.

i'd disagree. if you're hiding behind some bushes, i might have a hard time seeing you, but i'll see the bushes just fine. an astral ward shouldn't count as a barrier to sensing the ward itself.

The way i see the whole ward thing, Tn's 10 to sense the ward it's self (being on another plane) anything past it 10+ force of ward (till you step through it)

What a couple of dumbasses you are mfb and Shockwave_IIc. Glad i could have some company.

Sign me up for "dumbass" as well. That's pretty silly.

Err, I'm thinking you guys were misunderstanding me, and considering my profound expertise in explaining myself, that's not a shock.

In a nutshell, I hate static TNs for things like this.

A ward itself counts as an astral barrier (I've seen people try to claim otherwise around here before for what ever dumbass reason they have). So anything behind the ward, which itself is an astral barrier, will apply its force as a positive modifier for detecting it. But the force of the ward itself should be a negative modifier for detecting the ward itself.

Example: You encounter a Force 3 Ward with a Force 5 spirit hanging out behind it. Your TN to detect the ward would only be 7 (base 10 - its Force), but since the ward was an astral barrier, detecting the spirit behind it would have a TN of 12 (10 - ward + spirit's Force). Under the standard rules, the TNs would be 10 and 15 respectively regardless of the Force of the ward or spirit, and I think that's incredibly lame for a power that's supposed to be sensitive to the amount of magic flowing around.

Given your apparent classification criteria for "dumbass" i think i might actually want to hear the reasoning behind not counting a ward as a "astral barrier" before passing judgement on the reasoning.

EDIT: Please stop adding extra paragraphs post-post without at least an editting tag.

EDIT: WTF???? You completely changed the post now. Either that or my shortterm memory is completely hashed?

I like the idea for detecting the ward (Tn's 10- force) but the rest i prefer the canon way, though i do see the point your making (the more powerfull it is the easier to detect)

i think i get it. the (10 - ward + spirit's Force) is a typo and a miscalculation, i think; judging from everything else Lime's said, he mean TN 18 (10 +ward +force). detecting the ward itself, as he posted, would be TN 7 (10 -ward).

and, yeah, he's suggesting some (sensible and balanced) houserules.

I would think (10+ward-force) to detect the spirit and (10-ward) to detect the ward, would be to the spirit of the idea. Higher force means easier to detect, IMO.