I'm about to create a Nartaki with 4 Cyberarms.
the two Upper Arms will have AGI 8 each ,the two Lower Arms AGI 6 each.
(She's also got Ambidexterity 3 x and Firearmsgroup 4)
what are the Pools when I split them to shoot Akimbo ?
2 Assaultrifles 1 for both right Arms and both left Arms is easy ,its AGI 7 for the calculation
but what with 3 or 4 Automatik Pistols/SMGs ?
What if 1 Assaultrifles is used by the 2 upper Arms(AGI and 1 from the two lower Arms(AGI 6) ?
Usually I know the Akimbo Rules (I already played with a Nartaki Adept) but they are for equal Attributes in all Limbs.....


with an Akimbo Dance
Medicineman

I believe this may fall under the 'cyberlimb average of attributes' rule, though I know dual wielding has a clause about using the lower skill for calculations if you're using multiple guns - i'm not sure if it is just SKILL, or counts attribute too.

Why cyberarms in particular?

I believe this may fall under the 'cyberlimb average of attributes' rule,
Hmmm, If the two Upper Arms use one Assault Rifle and the two lower Arms use a SMG each that makes no sense ImO.
if both right Arms would use an Assault rifle, sure, than thy average their Attribute to 7

Why cyberarms in particular?
because natural Arms have the same Attribute (If I add muscle Aug its for all Limbs)
this Char happens to have 4 (obvious) Cyberarms (the lower two are detachable) and the Top Arms have AGI 8
(the lower Ones AGI 6) because there were free Slots in the Upper Arms but no more Slots in the lower Arms
and its important for a Streetsam (specially an Akimbo Strretsam) to have high AGI,right ?

He who dances like Shiwa
Medicineman

A more in-depth answer:

Attacker using a second firearm:(4a 150): Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

Using assault rifles in one hand is covered under Arsenal Optional Rules: 162, using two handed firearms. Doing it with one hand is a -2, -1 if you're a troll.

4a 343, Cyberlimbs: When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down). If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.

Put all those together, and you basically get this:

((Lowest Agi of Limbs)+(lowest of mixed Skills)) % # of limbs firing. (note that the split isn't a forced rounding, if you have an odd die out, its going to go towards one attack. Likewise, you can have one a bunch of weak attacks(one die each to get Defender -1 penalties) and one strong attack(all the rest of the dice).



I've played around with this concept before, and basically what you want to do is load up on as many Dice Pool Modifiers as possible. You split BEFORE applying modifiers.
Specialization counts after the split
Sideways counts after the split
Synch counts after the split
tacnet counts after the split (while smartlink bonuses don't apply, smartlinks DO come with a Camera and a Laser Rangefinder, giving it a leg up on joining a tacnet.)
tracer ammo counts after the split
red dot sights are not called out as losing the bonus while multigunning like laser sights and smartlinks are. (they SHOULD be, so use at your own risk)
Also make sure that all recoil is accounted for, because recoil spillover will screw all of your dice pools.


My advice is to go Adept. One point of essence loss for Ware covers all the bases you want - restricted gear for muscle toner 8, other biowares, and you really, really, really want as much Dice Pool Penalty mitigation as possible. Adept Centering and Heightened Concentration go a long way towards this.

You should consider using Second-Hand(augmentation 32) Alphaware for this. The essence cost adjustments pretty much cancel each other out(they do entirely if you're using german rules fixes), but they have an often-overlooked Availability -1, which lets you fit more Cyberlimb Customization or Bulk Mods in.

Anyway, you should be able to combine both Customized Cyberlimbs(don't take space, just money and availability) and Enhancements(cheap, but take capacity and can't go above 3 without a torso) to get matching Agi stats.

If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

I know, but the SKILL is he same (its 4) its the Attribute, thats why I'm asking teh community

If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.
the Two upper Arms use 1 Assault Rifle with a Skill of 4 and an AGI of 8 (each Arm)
the two Lower Arms use a SMG (with a Skill of 4 ) and AGI of 6 Each

I've played around with this concept before, and basically what you want to do is load up on as many Dice Pool Modifiers as possible. You split BEFORE applying modifiers.
I know and its not the adding of Mods that "troubles me" its the different AGI

I know the Akimbo Rules pretty well
My advice is to go Adept. One point of essence loss for Ware covers all the bases you want - restricted gear for muscle toner 8, other biowares, and you really, really, really want as much Dice Pool Penalty mitigation as possible. Adept Centering and Heightened Concentration go a long way towards this.
I'm already playing a Nartaki Guns Adept and he's a great Char with lots of possibilities.
But thats not the Advice I'm looking for,as this new Char has to be build with 4 Cyberarms

with a different Dance
Medicineman

Okay. Now that I have values to put into the formula, I can work with this.


SMG 4 + Agi 6
Longarms 4 + Agi 8

And you're doing this all with a simple action.

Unfortunately, not getting your guns in the way of each other is pretty much certainly going to count against the 'careful cooordination' clause.

So you're looking at Skill(4) + Weakest Agi(6) = 10 dice split among 3 attacks.

Otherwise, I'd ask your GM.

Nope with 4 Alpha Cyberarms and 2 Alpha Cyberlegs I can't afford to go used 'ware thats tooo much Essence Loss
The Arms have 19 / 20 Slots each and the Legs 24 .They're FULL


they have a customized AGI of 6 each and the two Upper Arms each had 2 slots left that will be filled with enhanced AGI
I could only scale them down to their customized AGI of 6 each, but I don't want to do that

with a higher Dance
Medicineman

but the Crunch is weakest SKILL and not weakest Attribute
AND its not logic to calculate the lower Arms AGI for something that the UPPER Arms do !
Imagine a Char with hig Agility Cyberegs (f.e. and low Body AGI (f.E. 4) when he shoots a Pistol You use his Arms Agility (4) not the Leg Agility( 8 ) for shooting his Pistol

with the weakest Dance
Medicineman

its the crunch for Akimbo.... but not Cyberlimbs. I think you glossed over that. If you're using cyberlimbs, you need to take the penalties for cyberlimbs into account.

That is to say, if you're using the Same Action to fire 3 guns, you're still coordinating 4 limbs at the exact same time. It doesn't care that the top half has a higher AGI value, it cares that the lower half is slower.
Think of it as a penalty for not recoiling your own shots from your own hands into your upper limbs. You NEED that coordination to not shoot yourself, or your own weapon right above your other weapon.


Anyway, I can see where you're coming from, but I tend to take the most by the book approach. This is why I said it's a question for your GM.

Could I see how you've setup your arms? This is pretty easy to solve if you can match agi across all limbs.

Hmmmm, so I either average the Limbs to 7
or I find a way to free two more Slots on each Lower Arm to add AGI +2 there too, so each Cyberarm will have an AGI of 8.
Yeah I think thats the best way as it will spare the GM from severe "Rules-Headache"


Could I see how you've setup your arms?
He's not finished yet (alpha Building Stage)

Thanks Udoshi
Its been a pleasure


From Germany

with a Good Dance
Medicineman

Hey, you're welcome. I went to bed super early and got up super early, and just happened to be awake and online at the same time.
Now that you pointed it out, I failed my own math at averaging limbs. You're right, it should have been 7, not 6.

Anyway, if you have money or availability problems, you should consider using the "luxury hotel" trick from arsenal. Its a fantastic way to get extra cash and spend it post-creation, but just before the game begins.

The answers about limiting everything to the weakest limb and skill are great, though.

Except for when he shoots with those guns implanted in his legs. While also walking on his four Nartaki Arms as usual. And calling himself Scorpion King.

Do you even need to have Shiva Arms to have four cyberlimbs?

If you want them all to be hands then yes, you can only replace what you have.

My big question is why 2 one-hand guns and 1 two-hand gun? An assault rifle doesn't net you much extra kick for the top two hands compared to a pair of SMGs. The only real benefits I can see are splitting your dice 3 ways instead of 4, and maybe the benefits of having the rifle ready for situational single-weapon usage with only the top two arms and a full dice pool.

Other than that, I say since you're using four limbs to make a combined set of attacks, averaging all four to AGI 7 is not only simplest but also makes the most sense. It almost seems like the only reasons it doesn't come across as the obvious solution is because of the two-handed rifle thrown into the mix, as compared to simply having 4 one-hand guns.

~Umi

My big question is why 2 one-hand guns and 1 two-hand gun?....The only real benefits I can see are splitting your dice 3 ways instead of 4,
Splitting the Pool by three or by four can be of great difference
Using 1 Assault Rifle and 2 SMGs is just on of the many (many,many) possible combinations

oh, by-the-way She has AGI 8 on all 4 Arms now (I shifted some Slots around and added AGI +2 for 2 Slots in the lower Arms too ) and her Name shall be Lolth (Nartaki Drow Night One Poser with Spider Drones)

with a Combination Dance
Medicineman

Wait . . would lol th not have more legs instead of more arms? O.o

the Original D&D Lolth surely, but this is the Shadowrun version


with a laughing Dance ( )
Medicineman

i'd have gone with a surged centaur who, instad of 2 more arms, got 2 more legs. so 6 legs and 2 arms makes 8 and with the centaur body it's a propper drider already . . .
and you would never have had the problem of needing to know how to calculate your pools with the cyber-limbs, because you could never have afforded any on an centaur.

Is there a rules quote about the necessity of Shiva Arms for extra cyberlimbs? Because you can add some pretty wacky stuff to yourself with cyberware that you didn't have to replace, like tails, claws, eyes in your palms, and the fan-favorite cyberpenis.

No, there is no rule saying this.
There is also no rule either allowing or banning having more cyberlimbs than you had originally . .
The only thing that comes close is the neural path-wys not being used to having more than 4 limbs can't really work it out and no nartaki/centaurs have been dissected yet to find out how they do it . .

You can only substitute your Arms & Legs for Cyber, you cannot add additional Cyberarms or Legs
(there are now Rules for adding Cyberarms and Legs, only replacing them)
So Yes, You need to be a Nartaki (or a Surged One) to have more than two Cyberarms

HokaHey
Medicineman

So...magic! I'd consider asking your GM if you could skip the SURGE if it's not part of your character's background. You already have to pay out the waz for Ambidexterity, and if you want anything out of your Adept powers you're going to need to put a lot of points into Magic to make up for the hefty Essence loss. Or get a whole bunch of cyberlegs and kick people! Woot! Or sit yourself on an arachnoid walker drone and put guns in its legs! Man, you could go a million ways with this, and they all lead to awesome.

*coughs*binky*coughs*

Lolth on Binky....
thats so Lady Death like
By-the-Way I rewrote her with Karma and instead of 90 additional Karma she needs now only 30 add. Karma (I lowered her Edge to 4 and her Whipskill to 4 but everything else is the same )

with a very similar Dance
Medicineman

No only fluff about how nobody has yet figured out how to get extra cybers arms to work, those who allready have them naturally have all the necceary neural pahtways for it to work and those who dont have natural extralimbs ofcource dont have those.

And on the rules side, there are absolutely no rules for getting additional limbs as ware, only for replacing existing limbs.