So I will be starting a new campaign shortly as a PC, and one of the other players believes he has created an indestructible sammie (Hes a great rules lawyer).

And to his credit, hes pretty bad ass. A quick Description:

Human with:
Wired 2, Pain Editor, 16/14 armour, 18 Dice Pool in Automatics/Pistols, etc. Overall a badass killing machine. Useless in any other context... but whatever regarding that.

My question is, I want my character (Also a sammie, but with much more spread out skills and cyber and not solely focused on combat) to have something up his sleeve (thats not terribly expensive) to be able to take care of this guy in an emergency. (Hes vindictive, easy to anger)

Since he cant be stunned out (Pain Editor), Drugs aren't really an option, as I thought a nice Dart Pistol with Narcoject might be.

Ive got good weapon skills so I could win a shootout, but I was hoping for something a little more subtle and less ... mortal.

Generally this will be my first SR character, although ive been GM'ing for a while.

Im sure there are a few tricks some people know... Just curious. Thanks!

NW

Spell knack, turn to goo.

1) Software backdoor for his cyberware
2) Drugs are still good to go. There's Nausea Gas, Gamma-Scopolamine, a steady dose of Bliss in his morning coffee to calm him down some ... Doesn't need to be stunning or lethal, there are a lot more possibilities

When he's so angry that he'll attack you, he'll also be aware of any direct surprises, so it can't be too subtle or involve surprise tests. Except when you're thinking that attack is a better defense

Apart from that: needs more input. How is his PAN security, for example? Armor mods?

Honestly, the Narcoject idea is fine. Just replace the narcoject with penalty-stacking sensory overload drugs. I seem to recall there are some around there. Nobody is too bad ass with a +5 to all success thresholds.

Edit: Gamma-Scopolamine can cause paralysis but relies on exceeding reaction after a resistence test - chancy with a street sam. Nausea-causing drugs are a great backup if you have a tracheal filter, are dosed with Oxyrush, or have an internal airtank - if the power of a nausea attack exceeds the target's willpower, they are unable to take actions. I don't have Aresenal or any non-main books on PDF with me, but I'm sure there's some more fun stuff out there.

What's his Willpower like? Stun damage, while counter-intuitive considering the pain editor, might be resisted less. Also, Electricity damage carries the Taser Twitch Test which isn't damage itself - but the damage that accompanies it IS is AP half.

Getting mean, look at Binder - its a medical compound in augmentation page 135, that provides temporary but complete immunity to a specific toxin. This means your chemical warfare options go through the roof, especially if you have an Autoinjector.
Gas Grenades, Splash Grenades, and DMSO to chance a toxin's vector around to be more compatable with those works well.


Neurostun and Narcojet are good.
Anything which inflicts Nausea is a really amazing incapacitator: pepperpunch, tear gas, nausea gas.
take a look in Arsenal's drug and toxin section and see what stands out.
If you must go absolutely Nuclear with your chemical warfare, Rock Lizard Blood, a magical compound from the same book will let you survive it.


Freeze Foam in a grenade is also hilarious.

His character isn't special, really. Just ask your mage buddy for a timely turn to goo, as has already been suggested.

Bribe your street doc.

Get him a cranial bomb and invoked memory stimulator installed. Also a data filter so he lacks a long term memory *haha*.

Breathtaker (Ars p 83/4) is easy to administer and cheap. A fun one to shut him down in a heartbeat is Shade, but at 1,000 it can be pricey. Laes is a little cheaper but has some side-effects. (Ars 78 and 76 respectively)

Don't forget disorientation effects. -2 to dice pools and the pain editor does not matter. Between disorientation, nausea, paralysis, and stacking stun damage you can probably take him out or disable him quickly.

Warp is another good option and it does not require time to take effect, has a high power, and should quickly give him a -4 modifier between the disorientation and the hallucinations.

Edit: Also consider combat drugs/drugs. Side effects can be pretty harsh.
Could be useful: Slab, Woad (depending upon how you interpret berserk), K-10 if you want to potentially ruin his character forever, Crimson Orchid and double dose of P4MO

I'm not sure you understand what a pain editor does

I was referring to the disorientation ignoring the pain editor, unless it says somewhere that the pain editor also edits out confusion and disorientation.

The stacking stun damage is to get to physical damage, not to apply penalties. Like several other people have pointed out.

Thanks for the constructive feedback though.

double post

I'd be interested to know whether it is the player or the PC who is "vindictive, easy to anger". This is relevant to selecting options for you.

My first suggestion is "Don't play in a game where PvP is likely to happen."

If that's not an option, how immediate do you need to be able to subdue him? If it's on a basis of, say, an hour or so, my advice would be to become Loyalty 5+ chummers with El Chupacabra the Troll Luchadore who can come out to you and manually restrain the rampaging cybermonster so the rest of you can relieve him of his weapons and furnish him with the physical restraints of your choice.

If you need more immediately-available restraints, my advice would then be to get yourself an Imperial Tech Services Gonryu (from War!), a fully-automatic grenade launcher with a 50-round belt feed, and load each and every one of those grenades with Freeze Foam (Arsenal.)

It's the closest thing to having a Sthrol Munitions Immobilizer loaded with Green-mod 19 you can get in the Sixth World. And frankly, if you can't think of plenty of other creative uses for being able to airburst freeze foam at full auto, you're not thinking hard enough.

WoW! Thanks for the replies. Some notes:

1. This is an in-game thing, and usually well roleplayed. Its (Mostly) the character, not player. We are an experienced group, and I simply don't know the rules well enough (as he does), that's all. There's no real PVP issues, it would be fun if it ever happened.
2. His PAN is garbage. Not sure what I would need as a non-hacker to shut him down. Im weak in that area of knowledge.
3. Will power is also garbage, which is likely my focal point
4. Love the different drug ideas, Ill pile through them. I do have some Tear Gas grenades
5. Yeah I know I can get the mage to take care of him, I just want to be in charge when necessary
6. Cranial Bomb, lol. Dont think I want to get that personal
7. Breathtaker is definitely top of the list. Ive got an internal airtank, he doesnt.
8. War and Attitude isnt allowed in this game, but freeze foam is, Awesome! Love it.
9. This is a desire for a quick way to shut him down, I have 10 times the contacts and can call in favours to own him, its more of an instant, shut up.

Thanks again for the awesome feedback.

No War!? That's a shame. Some of the gear is quite nice and useful.

2: If his PAN is garbage, get a hacker to hack into his ware, set it so it will always listen for a given wireless command, and then shut down when you send that command. He'll be a lot less threatening with no pain editor and only one initiative pass, and you can Stick 'n Shock him down.

3: Willpower is garbage? Get a magician to mindfuck him into calming down. That, or point an Orgasm spell at him to incapacitate him and make him suddenly need a cigarette more than anything else in the world.

(You can always pick up Spell Knack: Orgasm, yanno.)

8: It's a pity that War! isn't allowed. See if you can slide an automatic fire mode for another grenade launcher past the GM.

9: What a pity. Oh well. EL CHUPACABRA shall be victorious another day!

2. Yup, it came to mind. But can I really shut down his Pain Editor via his Pan? Isnt there a way to wire that in directly?.... I guess not..
3. Not sure what this Spell Knack term means...
8. Heh, doubt it.
9. Chupicabra is the name of my characters Van, if that helps...

2: Well, frankly, wireless 'ware is retarded, but there it is. Does he have an implanted sim module? Being able to override his control and make him go hot sim would shut him down immediately; you could feed him something pleasant and innocous, or a BTL.

3: It's in Street Magic, page 26. 5pt quality that lets you cast one spell. Technically it's completely useless since it takes pains to basically say that getting any ware whatsoever will kill the ability, but you should be able to talk your GM into seeing the retardedness of that.

9: You have a van? Awesome, then. Get yourself a fixed, internal weapon mount and mount an Ares Fogger Glop Cannon! If he gets out of line, step into your van and hose him down with freeze foam!

Pain Editor is Bioware. Frankly, I don't have any idea how you activate that, but I think deactivating it via wireless ... isn't an option
But his wired reflexes and other metal stuff ... sure

If you are in HtH you can always slap him with a Rating 6+ Tranq patch or 2.

No one has his cyberware accessible through the matrix. There's no reason to do that at all.

Derp. For some reason I was thinking it was chrome, not meat.



No, but when you're dealing with a cybermonster, it only makes sense to try exploring the option. Especially if you can get access to it during his downtime and make it listen to wireless commands even if he tells it not to.

Yeah, I was wondering about that, guessing I cant turn Bioware off. On a related note, generally you dont walk around with Pain Editor and lets say Wired Reflexes ON, right? So what action is it to turn them on?

Just off the top of my head?

A slap patch laced with Slab, total cost 151 nuyen, no roll for resistance, minimum 1 hour in which to put him in compromising positions with a drunken midget hooker and take pictures.

Barring that, Freeze Foam. Possibly in a gecko-gripped grenade stuck to him discretely and set to blow via wireless command.

~Umi

rig all his houses, safehouses and hangouts to blow, then have them linked to your biometer. if you flatline he loses everything, giving him a vested interest in keeping you alive. add a cranial bomb in him that goes off if you die, and you can bet he'll prioritize your survival fairly highly.

he'll hate you, but he'll protect you.

Until the hacker nanites have turned the wireless connections on, that is...

Bye
Thanee

Industrial Grade Glue-Gun. This Foam-Stuff used for constructions/making people hold still. Makes it impossible for him to keep upright and impossible to move.
Is slip-spray still in there somewhere? if so, a grenade of that stuff. Makes it impossible for him to keep upright and to keep his non built in stuff in his hands.
Combine them for extra-fun. make him slip around on the ground and when you tire of that, encase him in glue/concrete foam to make him hold still.

Pepper-Punch and Stick and Shock. Even if he does not take stun damage, he takes a -4 to all of his actions at least from the stuff in his eyes and having been shocked.

Is the Net-Gun from SR3 Fame still in? If so, a large Net is fine too.

And these are non/less-than lethal take-downs too. so he can still be interrogated later on or at least the player has no grounds for really being angry/sad.

So...you guys work together?

1.Drug his food or drink during a heavy drinking session
2.Take ..."sensitive" photos of said victim involving something...revolting like Devilrat Porn or Male troll prostitutes...
3.Finish off with LAES and interrogate him properly and wipe the last 24 hours from his mind.
4. Upload a backdoor into his commlink as you now have priority access to all his gear.
5. Put him to bed beside his toilet with proper amount of emty bottles and puke after a heavy weekend.
6. make sure you as well fake (or actually is) just as hammered.


Now you have EVERYTHING on this guy including all dirty secrets, mail passwords, full contact lists, what he did during high school. You have also gained all kind of backdoors to his ware and commlink.

There's some other valuable stats that would help with devising options on how to ruin his day. Total Reaction, Intuition, Body, Willpower, Perception....

I think that a well concealed sniper is more than adept at making anyone's day bad. It's pretty easy to jack up its Reaction and Intuition and make it exceedingly difficult for most PCs to beat them on the surprise test since the sniper should get the full +6 bonus on the check. A Barret with APDS on such a sniper would have him facing about 14P damage with just 8 armor and I'm guessing about 7-8 body. The Wired Reflexes and Pain Editor won't provide any benefit except for the +2 Reaction for the surprise test.

Remember! Gunshots aren't fatal as long as the character has Edge to burn on HoG.

How does this freeze foam work? Im not sure its explained well in the book. Say I have a Freeze Foam Grenade, what area does it blow up into and cover?

Actually, for WR, there's no reason to have them off at all.

For Pain Editor you could argue about that, but realistically you would notice most attacks because of the kinetic force that just "moves" the part of you that got hit. You don't feel the pain, but you do realize that because of SOMETHING your head made a sudden move forward if someone shoots you from behind.

Well. No crunch reason.

Motion sensors.

True, but IMO that's a bit weak
Someone who's ALWAYS wired should have to suffer negative consequences.

Fatigue damage.

Yeah I disagree. We defintely go the way of: You look crazy twitchy when wired is on. Not something you want all the time.

Think we may make turning it on a free action.

I don't particularly like how that rule is implemented anyway. Synaptic boosters already have enough of a downside to them compared to wired reflexes that the twitchy mechanic is another sucker punch to them.

I wasn't talking about bioware, though
As this is rather off-topic, just a short explanation: Something you can't control if it's on or off shouldn't have additional drawbacks. All cyberware does have DNI switches, so it's reasonable to assume that it's a strain on body (and probably mind) to have it on all the time (apart from basic functions, such as vision, hearing, etc.). As wired reflexes have a rather high essence cost (compared to synaptic boosters), it's also reasonable to assume in my view that it is a cruder implant taking more toll. So yeah, I think, wired reflexes and move-by-wire systems should have additional drawbacks if you overdo it.
As there are no hard rules on this anymore (except the issue with the motion sensors) it would be unfair to just present players with it. But in my games I do warn them if I notice a trend.

However, to get the curve back to the OP: A backdoor to keep the wired reflexes OFF (or turn them off if they are always on) would be a big equalizer if you're wired as well.
Personally, I love the freeze foam grenades
Aren't there superglue grenades as well somewhere? Immobilizing is a good way to let someone cool off for a while, without provoking more vengeful feelings (such as when he realizes he's been drugged or hacked) on the long term.

What the? You have that backwards. Synaptic is far superior to wired. 1.5essence for 4 passes and a mere 240k basic. Delta grade wired 5 is min 2.5 and going to cost you far more than that! The ONLY downside is it doesn't have an on/off switch.


Pain editor despite being bioware keeps saying 'while active' and hinting that it can be turned on and off. (IIRC in the first shadowtech or whatever it could be turned on and off, too lazy to look it up but anyone else have the book handy to double check?). Not that I think not being able to turn it off is out of line with the power of its effects.


What exactly is the downside to synaptic over wired?! That it's harder to detect than cyber and doesn't show up on cyberware scanners? That it's far more essence friendly? That even assensing mages can have trouble noticing it? Oh I guess you're referring merely to the price tag. And that it makes it even easier to set off that motion sensor you were going to set off anyway? (it's not as if they point a motion sensor at a crowd and pick out the chipped ones)

Synaptic Booster I vs Wired Reflexes I. Synaptic Boosters are 25% of the essence cost while Wired Reflexes are 13.75% of the nuyen cost.
Synaptic Booster II vs Wired Reflexes II. Synaptic Boosters are 33% of the essence cost while Wired Reflexes are 20% of the nuyen cost.
Synaptic Booster III vs Wired Reflexes III. Synaptic Boosters are 30% of the essence cost while Wired Reflexes are 41.6% of the nuyen cost.

The problem is the price tag and that the detectability is significantly overvalued and because of how Wired Reflexes uses a non-equation cost while Synaptic Boosters does. You end up with an idiotic situation where the cost of the "undetectability" is by far the most contributory portion of the cost nor is that cost even static between various ratings and the undetectability cost is highest for the first rating over latter ones. There's absolutely no sanity regarding the pricing and essence cost for various comparable cyberware vs bioware options.

Reception Enhancers vs Attention Coprocessor. Though I'm certain the essence cost on the attention coprocessor is miswritten and is meant to be 0.3 x Rating rather than 0.3 regardless of rating. You have a nuyen cost of 20,000 per rating vs 3,000 per rating (15%) vs an essence cost difference of 0.2 vs 0.3 (66%). Yes, Reception Enhancers do provide bonuses in matrix and astral perception, and it isn't as detectable, but there's no way that all of that plus that pittance of essence reduction is worth a price increase of 666%.

Stealth... those figures are worthless without context. I don't really care if it follows a formula or not, the costs are arbitrary however it's done as appropriate to the setting. You're simply fixated on cash costs as best I can tell and completely ignore future improvement space. Nevermind that cash is the easiest thing to come up with later in play. It's hard to find more space for essence losses short of genetech (and a lot of cash then to heal essence loss!).


Wired 5 is cheap because it is cyber and the primarily limitation on cyber is essence reductons. So it also eats up 5 of your 6 points of essence! Leaving you with little to no space for any other modifications later. By that measure it's taken up just under 85% of your available essence with very little to show for it. Great, you have 150k more in... what else are you going to shoehorn into that 1 essence left?!

Which is the reason I resorted to mentioning deltaware... because the essence costs are a bit more in line with each other. You toss out that ~30% figures as if it's no big deal. (that ~30% normally ends up being more like 15% because bio is normally less than cyber so gets halved again!). You need to spend 10x the base price just to get a 50% reduction and have access to a delta clinic (no small feat).

Lets just say we're dealing with a starting char. The two options with a restricted gear for 4 passes are either Alpha Wired 3 or Synaptic 3. Either way you get a +3 to reaction. Either way you get 4 passes. Nothing more.
Alpha grade Wired 3 is 200k, and 4 cyber.
Standard grade synapci is 240k and 1.5bio.

One leaves no budget for any other augmentations. The other leaves some spare chage out of the 250k but with very little room for further essence reductions.

And your bits about detectability are similarly short-sighted. You try and get wired into a high class establishment or onto a suborbital flight and past the cyber scanners. It is a constraint. It only fails to be a constraint if your GM keeps you out of those zones or fails to apply the complications of those zones. I made a bio-sammy for bodyguard duty in a LA setting specifically because of those restrictions (synaptic 2). So I'd say those nondetectability bonuses are quite relevant. I've even been known to use modular limbs to help with smuggling... I have my vanilla 'cripple' arm I wear then I have a tooled out combat arm with the cyberarm gyro and the like which will cause problems hidden away in some shielded smuggling compartment somewhere.

Cyber generally is the cheap and fast way to go... it's seen as the poor mans road. It's what the corps do to their wageslaves when they need to turn them into combatants. Because they care more about the bottom line and less about the long term essence costs to the user. It's what you're going to see in gangland... on the high-end lifestyle side you're more likely to run into bio though as it's more upscale.

Hah. No. I'm not. Cash costs are just simply one of the many problems with the costs that have been selected for bioware and cyberware. Future growth is really only of concern with a smaller subsection of cyberware and bioware mostly relating to physical attributes. There's no real rhyme or reason to half the costs of things. Synthacardium is a very good example of this. 10,000 and 0.1 essence per rating for a +1 bonus to four skills. Compare that to Tailored Pheromones which is a 15,000 and 0.2 essence per rating for a +1 to approximately 5 skills. The cash cost increases by 50% and the essence cost doubles for an extra 25% worth of skills being affected.

How about Mnemonic Enhancers vs Reception Enhancers? +1 per rating to language, knowledge, and instruction checks for 7500 and 0.1 essence per rating compared to +1 for perception tests per rating for 20,000 and 0.2 essence.

Synthacardium or Tailored Pheromones vs Reception Enhancers? 10,000 (0.1)/15,000 (0.2) per rating for multiple skills compared to 20,000 (0.2) for a single type of check. If anything, Cultured Bioware should have LOWER essence costs than standard bioware since it is supposed to be tailored to you. Damage compensator, ignore one damage box penalty for 15,000 and 0.1 per point of rating. A +1 to the skill rating (not a bonus) is priced at 10k and 0.1 essence.

There's no rhyme or reason for any of the costs of 'ware. My best guess is people just pulled numbers out of their arse and threw it on a piece of paper. Or to use your own words, "it's done as appropriate to the setting," which is an entirely laughable concept because appropriate to setting would involve actually establishing some sort of sensible baseline economy which I can pretty much tell they did and succeeded about as well as a missile will hit the broad side of a barn thanks to scatter rules.

No idea what the stats are for SR4, or wether or not it's actually in there at all . .
I just remember this stuff from SR3 mostly.

Arsenal pg82
Freeze Foam: This sticky, white foam begins to harden al-most immediately into a solid, dense consistency when released and exposed to air. Once hardened, the concretized foam restricts movement, though it does remain porous to reduce the risk of suffocation. Th e solid foam breaks down in a matter of hours and can be easily dissolved by a special solvent. Freeze foam is used by medical professional to immobilize broken limbs in protec-tive casts, and by security forces to incapacitate rioters and build impromptu barricades. Th e Armor and Structure ratings of the resultant barrier is equal to the rating (1–6) of the compound (see Barrier Ratings, p. 157, SR4); the rating of the compound (and its associated Armor and Structure ratings) reduces at a rate of 1 per hour after being deployed.

As a GM for the Freeze Foam grenades, I have targets in the area roll Reaction to resist (Reaction + Dodge if full defense). Use the Rating of the Freeze Foam as the Power of the attack. If the (Power - Hits) is higher than Target's reaction they are immobilized by the freeze foam, otherwise it applies a negative dice pool modifier to Agility and Reaction based tests. (Based on Paralysis mechanics for toxins)

Note: There is a special chemical that dissolves Freeze Foam quickly in Arsenal in case you get caught in it by accident. I'd recommend carrying some if you plan on using grenades against other people.

Edit: Splash grenades fill a 10m radius.

Arsenal Pg 82

Yeah, my favorite still remains a rating 6 glue grenade laced with DMSO. (industrial chemicals through the skin make great toxins while glueing your victims together or to the floor... or all kinds of annoyances).


But I also go with it takes 10 'doses' of chemical to load a chemical grenade. Look at the sheer number of targets it affects in how large of an area. It makes no sense whatsoever that just because you put 1 dose in a grenade you can now affect 20 people in the blast radius? The rules are silent on the matter they simply say + chemical cost... then don't say how much chemical you actually need.

So at that rate... a chem splash grenade with 10 doses of rating 6 freeze foam per grenade is pretty expensive. Though 2 of them is probably good enough. Also remember that a rating 6 barrier is not all that tough, and is fairly easy to break apart with just unarmed attacks if you're even marginally good at them. So don't expect that monstrous beefy troll to be immobilized for long.

Yep, although the rules are a bit...open to interpretation. The rules for nets are "use the rules for Subduing Combat with a couple of exceptions", but none of these exceptions covers how to catch someone with the net in the first place.

PS: There also is a tangle grenade (not the actual name) in Spy Games. As far as I remember, the rules for it are equally useless.

Can one of your Contacts be a possession spirit?

Ha! Never thought of that.

As expected, the PC went sideways, and attempted to kill an innocent civilian we were interrogating. The mage quickly took care of business, but it should lead to some interesting interactions in the coming runs.